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Well, it was not as different as I was expecting. Blacks were blacker than snot, but I'll tell ya, I wasn't blown away by any differences I noticed. A side by side might be nice to really nail down the differences, but I'll definitively say that having seen the G90 CRT, I will be VERY happy with a Marantz12s2 when I get my shiznit together.


Note: It appeared to be straight input from the DVD, not via any processor, but it was a large company party, and I didn't have a chance to really cross-examine the host. He did have a Panasonic DVHS, but didn't get to spend much time on any HDTV material. He just casually flipped it to HDNet while he was getting the DVD ready. :D


edit: I'll be gone on a cruise this week, so I won't be able to clarify or answer any questions, but I'll read this when I get back and answer anythign that arises then. Sorry for the hit and run. :D
 

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DVD handling can be very source specific in it's qualitative terms. For example, I set up a custom modified HTPC for a customer to use on a modified CRT at 1920x1080P, and he started to prefer the ease of DVD use instead of HDTV, as the quality was suddenly not that inferior to the HDTV.... if not noticeably better than the (half the time) bad source HDTV.


So, it would be incredibly difficult to rate the quality of a CRT projector with a straight DVD player feed. Garbage in, garbage out.


It never is as large a difference as you are expecting though. Both form images that the human eye can relatively decipher... But one of them has noticeably more fidelity.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by KBK
DVD handling can be very source specific in it's qualitative terms. For example, I set up a custom modified HTPC for a customer to use on a modified CRT at 1920x1080P, and he started to prefer the ease of DVD use instead of HDTV, as the quality was suddenly not that inferior to the HDTV.... if not noticeably better than the (half the time) bad source HDTV.
Ken,


I'm curious. It sounds like you were using the HTPC to upconvert the DVDs to 1920x1080p. Were you also using the HTPC to upconvert 1080i HD to 1080p, or was the comparison 1080p DVD to 1080i HD?


Thanks,

Darin
 

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If you were watching a G90 with no scaler, then you really can't claim that you've seen what a G90 can do...


The G90 should have had significantly more light output than the Marantz, and a MUCH better picture. I've seen both.


William
 

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If you were watching a G90 with no scaler, then you really can't claim that you've seen what a G90 can do...


The G90 should have had significantly more light output than the Marantz, and a MUCH better picture. I've seen both.


William



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yes and no.

yes when i compare my g 90 to the maranz s1 the hd picture when use the faroudja 5000 to upconv.1080 i to 1080 p the g 90 have a far better picture than 1080 i to the maranz.

no the light output is almost the same.all visitors at my home can confirm this.

the new maranz s2 is a big increase in cr.not a good as a g 90 but as close as never before.

i use at the moment the vigatec dune f with the faroudja chips and connect the s2 with dvi.

this give you a picture that its hard to believe that thats dvd and i rate it as good as the g 90 with the 5000.this set up have advantages and disadvantages but over all a reference picture .
 

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Those owners of both the G90 and S2 who have test equipment could post quantitative information about how much better the G90 is than the S1, S2, or any existing dlp. Just project test patterns (gray wash) from digital 0 to 255, and measure the net lumens from the screen. The G90's minimum light output and its monotonic variation as a function of analog input level will invariably be better in the first 25% of the scale. It is this performance re shadow detail which distinguishes crts from competing technologies. People who think dlp's are great do not view the full spectrum of movies and have a habit of glossing over crushed blacks, which diminish the viewing experience. It is this inconsistency in dlp (so-so deep black vs magnificent high apl pq) which, when solved, will be the final nail in the coffin of crt. Because dlp has crt beaten on alignment and geometry. But the king (CRT) is not dead yet.
 

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Quote:
People who think dlp's are great do not view the full spectrum of movies and have a habit of glossing over crushed blacks
Agreed and Im a fan of DLP.
 

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i sale my g90 because i purchase a 3 chip dlp.

i sale my faroudja 5000 because the vigatec dune f is better in sd tv not in hd tv.

i have nothing to do with home cinema business.

it is typical that now when we get pr.that can produce a very good picture very close to a reference g90(FOR SD TV NOT HD) others can not believe it.

why you think that almost all remaining crt projector manufacturer have a plan to close the production?

this i not a officially statement but its true.

i had a double stack g 90 a faroudja 5000 i had a maranz s1 and i have a 3 chip dlp and a maranz s2.

my new steward screen is 430cm wide!!! also two g 90 pr. have enough light output(also not 1 s2) for this screen size and i am tired to adjust the double stack.

so what?

may next year i have a new processor a new projector may dlp may d ila with 2k resolution of course.

i am tired to convince forum members to believe my statements.

if you like your crt ok .if you happy with the picture ok.for me its time to change!

i was watching mostly pal dvds.with hd i was missing the g90 in

combination with the 5000 no doubt!(i need asap a 2k resolution but with a better cr.as the jvc qxga 1000:1 is not enough!!!)

most users of this forum are not having the possibility to compare units like this in a to b.

after 20 years of cd still some think the old analog disc is better.

don't expect much more information and postings from my side.

avs is a nice forum.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Ollie W. Holmes
Those owners of both the G90 and S2 who have test equipment could post quantitative information about how much better the G90 is than the S1, S2, or any existing dlp. Just project test patterns (gray wash) from digital 0 to 255, and measure the net lumens from the screen. The G90's minimum light output and its monotonic variation as a function of analog input level will invariably be better in the first 25% of the scale. It is this performance re shadow detail which distinguishes crts from competing technologies. People who think dlp's are great do not view the full spectrum of movies and have a habit of glossing over crushed blacks, which diminish the viewing experience. It is this inconsistency in dlp (so-so deep black vs magnificent high apl pq) which, when solved, will be the final nail in the coffin of crt. Because dlp has crt beaten on alignment and geometry. But the king (CRT) is not dead yet.


Yes i agree as well ( and i am a owner of a 12s1 --soon to be 12s2 )


But the question is what technology will bring that last nail down for DLP projectors????

Will three-chip design do it???


Thanks,


Bernie
 

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Hi Bernie,


In my opinion, it will be when TI perfect the SCR system with the Archimedes colour wheel. This, combined with the Vear or dimple solution, will produce a killer DLP. Until this time, CRT will continue to produce best blacks and the most natural picture of all the current displays.


Best Wishes,


Paul H
 

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Hey Paul,


I wonder if due to the nature of the beast (analogue CRT vs digital DLP) the CRT will always have some certain things that it just does better??


Yes, having the new wheel and dimples ect ect will make it better but i think its gonna take a revolution (pun intended) to make blacks better than CRT's on DLP projectors.


When i purchased the Marantz VP12s1 (gulp almost a year ago!) i was able to directly compare it side by side with a Barco CRT $20k PJ and a Sharp 9000. Yes the Barco blew away both DLP pj's in the black levels, and the Marantz blew away the Sharp in color fidelity and artifacts. ---- But i did buy the Marantz as it was the best and easiest product to use, mantain, and install (for a non-installer) for the money.... and i was in Japan on business anyways!!



I have high hopes for DLP's future. I think that a three chip will be closer to the holy grail than a new wheel. But will it ever be as good as the blacks in the best CRT's ?---- doubtfull!!!


Bernie
 

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How come in all this conversation someone does not mention the price of this crt killer. I think a crt killer can only qualify itself if it meets all the above criteria and also come in at a price that is close to the cost of the comparable crt. Most everything I have seen is more than double the crt cost and look slightly worse. So in order to look better doesn't it stand to reason that I would have to sell one of my kids to afford this crt killler. This is hardly a killer to me.


I think the new 350z is a killer because it comes in at a reasonable price. Get my drift?
 

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I have always liked the G90 and overall I think it is the best sub-$30K projector on the market.


I have not seen the S2 yet but the G90 was better than any HD-1 DLP, IMO.


-Mr. Wigggles
 

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I agree with Paul. I usually do.


A G90 or Electrohome 9500LC (rebuilt) can be had for not much more than the price of a new Marantz.


Using a good external processor on both and do your comparisons, Cards are available to feed the 9500LC SDi and DLPs shortly will be able to be fed DVi. Iron chef. The CRT will still be supreme. Pain in the rear though. Stay tuned, the challenger keeps closing the gap.
 

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Quote:
I have not seen the S2 yet but the G90 was better than any HD-1 DLP, IMO.
I agree. I've not seen any HD2 DLPs yet, but G90 I saw couple of times was better than any HD1 DLPs I've seen.
 

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Funny language, Mr. Burnt. :)


Did you use babelfish (just because some very funny errors are in your posting)?


Bye


Jan
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Agreed and Im a fan of DLP.
Crushed blacks??

Make that crushed grays and no blacks!

MH
 

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There is no such thing as a better engine or general suggestions to make things better. We are dealing with personal taste here. A G90 is one of the best CRTs available and the Marantz is one of the better digital machines (3 chip DLP probably being the best). Both have strengths and weaknesses.


If you have the place to mount a G90 (or any other big 9" CRT), the money to get one and have fun tweaking the engine until it sings, the price for the pain is a better picture by an order of magnitude if you don't go too far with screen size. I am certain that my G90 can slice the S1 and S2 or any other digital machine, but I don't say that the digital machines are a bad thing. It is always a tradeoff and you choose which things to drop in order to get the others onboard.


I would say that if you want convenience and a small footprint, take the digital machine. If you want real blacks and analog picture impression, go the CRT route because this is something that the digital machines cannot provide and will not provide for some years.


A 170 inch wide (not diagonal) screen has different contraints than a 118 inch wide screen and that's why the requirements of Mr. Mayer are different. He traded one thing for the other and it's his personal choice.



Regards,

Andreas
 

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Hi Bernie


I had a similar conversation with Gary Reber of Widescreen Review (nothing like dropping names is there!). In his view, lamp based pj's will never be able to fully shut off the light leakage and create the inky black CRT's are capable of. My take is that for many of us who have domestic applications in less than 100% light controlled environments and reflective walls, a combination of the Firehawk and a lamp based pj that limits light leakage to the same level as the room in its 'black out' state will do just fine for blacks. This combined with higher light output, sharper more solid images, accurate colours, no rainbow, built in high quality de-interlacers and scalers etc, and finally small size and ease of install will make the newer pj's unbeatable.


Best Wishes,


Paul H
 

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Hey Paul!


I hope your right! And i have invested in you being right as I will very soon upgrade to the s2. I sure as hell would not want that massive g90 on my ceiling (unless i lived in a house triple the size of the one i live in now:D )


Lets hope the black level gap keeps getting smaller!!


My wish list:


1. Take that damn fan out of it!!

2. Put three chips in it!!


until then its still damn good !

Bernie
 
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