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Discussion Starter #1
I tried this in the PlayStation subforum but got no responses, so I'm hoping that this is a more appropriate place for my queries.



First a little background...


PAL PS3's differ from their NTSC counterparts in how they output standard/enhanced def resolutions.

Where the NTSC units output 480i/p (60Hz), PAL units output 576i/p (50Hz). However, when outputing 720p and 1080i/p, both consoles output at 60Hz.

This is great for games as all games are designed to run at 60Hz anyways, but its not an ideal situation for 50Hz HD video playback.


Because XMB (the ps3's dashboard) playback at these resolutions is limited to 60Hz only, any HD footage that is 50Hz in nature, plays back with unwelcome judder.


I have an HDV camcorder (PAL) and a PAL PS3 and have found this to be rather frustrating, however I found that there is an exception.


AVCHD media that is authored as 'PAL', instructs the console to change into 50Hz mode. The footage plays beautifully and the screen refresh rate returns to 60Hz on return to the XMB.

There are no manual settings for this and playing the exact same clips via the XMB results in them being conformed to 60Hz. So its safe to say that something in the AVCHD structure is flagging the console and telling it to change modes.


Now, the question that arose from this discovery was what does an NTSC PS3 do when met with a 50Hz HD authored disc?

Someone may already have that answer prepared for me, but I thought it would be good for people to discover for themselves.


You will need:


* An NTSC PS3 with current firmware (Jap/US/HK should all work the same)

* A 25fps/50Hz HD clip http://www.filecabin.co.nz/8905820 (footage is my own)

* AVCHD authoring software (I've been using Nero Vision 4)

* A display that can report what refresh rate it is currently displaying (you should be able to observe the display change refresh rates if it is a CRT and doesn't display a dialog).



I'm sure you could just author a 30fps clip as 25fps for the sake of this experiment as all we are trying to establish is if the refresh rate changes, but using a 25fps clip will be easier to determine if the playback looks correct or not.

If the disc presents itself to the PS3 as 'Data Disc' then your authoring has failed. You should see 'AVCHD' in the XMB.


I look forward to the findings as I have no idea what the result will be. Generally every display sold in PAL territories will do both 60 and 50Hz, but I'm not sure if that goes for NTSC territories too. If you get a blank screen, then its a fairly safe bet that the console has changed modes, but the display won't support it.

I've tested with both HDMI and Component and it has worked for both.


The results of this could be quite disappointing for the NTSC PS3 owners living in PAL territories who are also planning on investing in the PlayTV DVB-T add-on when it launches. Broadcasts in those territories are 720p and 1080i at 50Hz, so an NTSC PS3 that can't support HD 50Hz is going to make it incompatible.


This test could also be extended to standalone Blu-ray players that acccept BDMV authored discs.

Looking forward to the results.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Have now had a chance to test an HD 50Hz AVCHD disc on an NTSC PS3.


The console sees the disc correctly as AVCHD and it attempts to load it, but when it reaches the point on my PAL unit where the refresh rate changes, the NTSC unit does nothing and just retains a blank screen (no audio playback either). This was a bit of a surprise as I was expecting at the very least that the console would just conform the video to 60Hz like it does when it plays back via the XMB or from a standard Data disc.


Future firmware updates may change this situation, but based on the lack of demand, its doesn't seem likely.
 

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Link did not work for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yes, it has long been dead unfortunately due to inactivity.

If you are serious about trying this, I will look into rehosting the clip.
 

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Hi Fahrenheit,


I can also confirm the same results. Disc is recognized and when you try to play it, it goes through the motions up until actual playback and the screen goes blank, no error message or warning.


The playback basically stops dead in it's tracks and none of the play, stop, skip, forward, pause, etc buttons work. When trying to view the info screen, it gives no useful data. Stop playback and eject are all you can do...
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the confirmation.

Its odd that a PAL unit can do support both 50 and 60Hz HD resolutions, but the reverse is not true.
 

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Dear fahrenheit,

I would like to buy an NTSC PS3 and I own a Sony HD camcorder in PAL.

Will I be able to play MT2S files from the camcorder PAL to my NTSC Playstation?

I am just talking about file transfer and not AVCHD DVD.

Thanks you for letting me know.

Matt
 

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Discussion Starter #8

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt04 /forum/post/14060107


Dear fahrenheit,

I would like to buy an NTSC PS3 and I own a Sony HD camcorder in PAL.

Will I be able to play MT2S files from the camcorder PAL to my NTSC Playstation?

I am just talking about file transfer and not AVCHD DVD.

Thanks you for letting me know.

Matt

Yes you will be able to play them, just be aware that they will be played back with a 60Hz refresh rate (but this is also true for PAL units if AVCHD isn't used).
 

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Discussion Starter #10

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitestang06 /forum/post/14064852


I've played PAL framerate stuff off of a flashdrive.

Can you please elaborate?


Playing it back and playing it back at 50Hz are two different things.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit /forum/post/14065049


Can you please elaborate?


Playing it back and playing it back at 50Hz are two different things.

It was a Skyone download of an episode of Battlestar Galactica.


I'm pretty sure it converted it to the PS3 desktop's 60hz refresh rate. It certainly didn't slow it down to 24p and convert it to 60hz, because it had the very obvious PAL speedup.
 

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Dear fahrenheit,

Thank you for your prompt reply. I am trying to solve this dilemma. I can buy the Playstation 3 in the USA at a very low price. I live in Europe and I have a PAL SONY HD SR12 camcorder.

My objective is to use it for games (obviously!) and to playback footage recorded with my HD camcorder.

I understand from your explanation that as of now the NTSC Playstation cannot play at all the AVCHD discs made with a PAL camcorder (it does not switch to 50Hz). But I will be able to play the raw MT2S files recorded with my SR12 at 60Hz (this is for any Playstation). I wonder what the result is in terms of the video quality if I play the footage at 60Hz. Will I be able to play a continuous loop of footage (more than one sequence at once) or I have to select sequence by sequence? If so, it will be not very practical to watch an entire movie which I shot with my camcorder which has many sequences (many MT2S files).

On the other side even if I have a PAL Playstation 3, and I make an AVCHD DVD the size of it is very limited and I will only be able to play short HD footage. For me the most convenient way is to keep all the footage on an HARD DISC connected to the Playstation for Playback... I understand that if I want to do that it will be always at 60Hz for MT2S files no matter of the Playstation format (PAL or NTSC!). Can you please give me your suggestions on this?

I am sorry about the long post but I wanted to clearly explain the problem as other people may have the same issue!

Many thanks in advance.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yes unfortunately you will have to play them back sequence by sequence.


I think there may also be limitations on MT2S playback which dictates they can only be played back from a burnt disc or a USB flashdrive. If I recall, copying to the PS3's hard drive or using a networked or USB hard drive won't allow them to play (firmware updates may have changed this situation). I'll need to run some tests to give you a definitive answer.


Any chance you can upload a small raw clip from your camera?



Edit: Playing back m2ts seems to be only restricted if using a networked PC.

I successfully played back a test file using -


*USB connected Hard drive

*USB Flash drive

*DVD+RW

*PS3's internal Hard drive
 

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Hi, I have a Pal PS3 and a PAL HDV HC9 (mpeg2 1080 50i) camcorder. The footage plays fine with no problem in either a USB stick or with dvd-r discs made with TSmuxer (blu ray option)
 

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Discussion Starter #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotis_Greece /forum/post/14104917


Hi, I have a Pal PS3 and a PAL HDV HC9 (mpeg2 1080 50i) camcorder. The footage plays fine with no problem in either a USB stick or with dvd-r discs made with TSmuxer (blu ray option)

That depends entirely on your definition of 'plays fine'.

Yes it will playback, but at 60Hz. Authoring the disc as AVCHD is the only way to ensure it plays back at the correct rate of 50Hz.
 

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I shot some moving and panning footage with my camcorder moving steadily and sometime quickly. I did this specifically to test for any abnormal playback. I also created a video file 1080 50i with sony vegas. It's a complex credit roll text moving quickly from all corners of the screen or emerging from the background. I tested them with creating tsmuxer dvd-rw discs (pseudo avchd mpeg2 25mbs)

It plays fine, no problems at all. I did these tests because I had the option to get an NTSC HC9 camcorder for cheaper and I wanted to make sure the pal stuff plays fine.

I don't know if the output is 60Hz. Do you have any pal video file that does not play correctly for you that can share for me to test?
 

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Discussion Starter #18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotis_Greece /forum/post/14107284


I don't know if the output is 60Hz.

Why don't you know? It seems you aren't testing any of this properly and are relying on your perceptions to guide you??? Are the discs you are creating appearing on the PS3 as 'AVCHD' or 'Data Disc'?


If you are using an HD capable display, then it is highly likely that you can access the display menu and see for yourself what resolution and refresh rate your display is currently locked to (if not you will need to delve further into the service menu).
 

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My friend, it is obvious that your opinion will never change whatever I tell you. If it wasn't for the fact that I have consumed some tons of lamb chops from your country I wouldn't have replied again.

Now for your info, tsmuxer creates AVCHD dvd-r which contain mpeg2. This is normally out of spec as avchd should only contain mpeg4 but programs like tsmuxer and tsremux fool ps3 by changing some headers. It is possible for the ps3 to output 50Hz from these discs as you suggest it does for avchd but the mpeg2 clips directly copied from my camcorder play fine even by using them as simple files on usb stick which according to you should output 60Hz.

My hd ready Sony LCD TV only shows the resolution ( I have set it to be 720p) and I don't know any way to get into more details to show 50 or 60Hz. If someone know please tell me. until then I rely on my drug and alcohol free perceptions to clearly inform you that MY footage plays as I expect it, it plays fine, no stuttering or any other.

Regards from Greece
 

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Discussion Starter #20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotis_Greece /forum/post/14109762


My friend, it is obvious that your opinion will never change whatever I tell you. If it wasn't for the fact that I have consumed some tons of lamb chops from your country I wouldn't have replied again.

I'm not attacking you personally, just your methodology. Sorry if you thought otherwise.


My "opinion" is irrelevant. The topic is called 'Science Experiment..' and that word 'Science' is all I care to indulge in. You are making claims that are contrary to my findings, but I'm open to the possibility that you are introducing new information to the table that I am currently unaware of. Either way, it needs backing up. Your word/opinion/perceptions aren't hard currency. I have not made any claims in this thread that others cannot themselves prove/disprove. I've also given all the tools/information others need to do so.


I am very interested in the results, however, the burden of proof is now on you to backup what you claim. In a manner of speaking, it is time to 'put up, or shutup'.


You can do one or more of the following things -


1. Verify that the footage you have is playing back at 50 or 60Hz refresh rate.


2. Enable others access to some of your own footage and the settings, storage media, file structure etc that you use, so that it can be independently verified.


3. Give instructions of how the footage was produced and what software was used so that it can be replicated and tested. (you've already mentioned two pieces of software I have access to).


You don't seem to be having much luck with number 1, so we aren't getting anywhere until you offer some kind of guidance.


Please understand were I am coming from. I can only take what you are saying at face value. Until I can see it for myself, your statements hold no real merit.

If you don't wish to play along, then I'd like to leave it at that, because there is no point getting into a disagreement if no result is forthcoming.


In all honesty, I hope that you are infact right, because it would mean that I wouldn't have to master to AVCHD in order to playback my 50Hz footage at its correct rate. But I remain skeptical until its proven.
 
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