AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,154 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Where do I begin?


Does anyone get a killer result from a smooth wall?

Whats the easiest way to get way beyond a wall for projection in terms of color, clarity etc?


I just got an NEC XG 110 CRT. After thinking I would go extra large I am scaling it back to 8' wide after all.


CMRA - has the most amazing shots I have ever seen - but isnt his screen made for DLP and NOT CRT?


What is MD and SS and all this stuff mean?


I saw aDalite $135 8' pulldown in someones home and it looked ok???


Does anyone here use PULLDOWNS? If so why...if not why???


Does the slight warping and bending on a pulldown effect the alignment and convergence during setup of a CRT.


Should I rule out pulldown - for what reason etc?


Any FAQ here?


As good as CMRA's looks I dont think it would be wise to try and build one like it and spend $500 for a first try - does it cost $500?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,103 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by mikecazzx
Where do I begin?


Does anyone get a killer result from a smooth wall?

Whats the easiest way to get way beyond a wall for projection in terns of color, clarity etc?


I just got an NEC XG 110 CRT. I want to go 8 wide preferably 9 ecept than a seam may be an issue for DIY (although my projector manual does not specify setup for a 9 only 8 and 10)


CMRA - has the most amazing shots I have ever seen - but isnt his screen made for DLP and NOT CRT?


What is MD and SS and all this stuff mean?


I saw aDalite $135 8' pulldown in someones home and it looked ok???


Does anyone here use PULLDOWNS? If so why...if not why???


Does the slight warping and bending on a pulldown effect the alignment and convergence during setup of a CRT.


Should I rule out pulldown - for what reason etc?


Any FAQ here?


As good as CMRA's looks I dont think it would be wise to try and build one like it and spend $500 for a first try - does it cost $500?
The best way to get way beyond a wall (white) is to accept a tradeoff to get something. For example, grayer screens give better contrast at the expense of brightness. High gain screens give more brightness at the expense of viewing angle. Read Tryg's reviews to get a good background on screens (FAQ). Links to his reviews are at the end of every one of his posts.


CMRA screen is a DIY screen. You can use it with any projector. MD and SS are paint mixes that went into the design of his screen.


If you don't know what you want, start with a DIY (white) blackout cloth screen on a fixed home-made frame. After viewing awhile, decide if you want more brightness, contrast, or something else. Then come back and learn how to buy or build that into you next screen. This "starter" screen will only cost $50.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,154 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
How about a "professional" screen material with maybe a 1.5 gain - how much would that improve a screen vs. say a blackout cloth?


How much improvement on a scale of 1 to 10?


No sense is building a nice frame and using blakout cloth, if a screen material will yieldreliably better results.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
426 Posts
Mike,


Trying to digest those 20+ page threads about homemade screen brews gives me fits and I've been reading in here for over 2 years now.


The best thing I did to bring myself up to speed quickly was to just experiment and try out different materials. You can request samples from the screen manufacturers or if you'd rather you can just try out paint from the hardware store or aim the projector at stuff laying around the house - whatever.


I shot on a gray wall and then taped a bunch of different samples up there and watched some movies (ones I'd seen before so I wouldn't ruin a good movie staring at a square of material.) Pay attention at how the whiter surfaces are punchy and bright, but might have blue looking blacks in dark scenes. Also pay attention to how darker materials will make the blacks look nice at the sacrifice of some of the brightness.


Then ... try out something like a piece of Firehawk or Greyhawk or Dalite High Contrast Cinema Vision to see how they change the compromise to some degree. Also stuff like a Dalite High Power or a Silverstar (if you can find a sample) are impressive for their ability to return more the light to your eyes (higher gain).


Most of the DIY screen formulations put metallic paint in a flat base to try to emulate something like the Silverstar. You can try a can of silver spray paint on a poster board. It looks cool, but you'll hate the reflection of the projector that you can see in it (hotspotting). The DIY formulations try to keep the gain of the silver, but loose the ugly hotspot. Then there is Screen Goo which is a pre-formulated screen paint that can save you the trouble of mixing/experimenting yourself.


If you give all of that at go you'll know what everyone is talking about on here for the most part. Physics of light refraction notwithstanding. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,154 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by PerryH
Mike,


Trying to digest those 20+ page threads about homemade screen brews gives me fits and I've been reading in here for over 2 years now.


The best thing I did to bring myself up to speed quickly was to just experiment and try out different materials. You can request samples from the screen manufacturers or if you'd rather you can just try out paint from the hardware store or aim the projector at stuff laying around the house - whatever.


I shot on a gray wall and then taped a bunch of different samples up there and watched some movies (ones I'd seen before so I wouldn't ruin a good movie staring at a square of material.) Pay attention at how the whiter surfaces are punchy and bright, but might have blue looking blacks in dark scenes. Also pay attention to how darker materials will make the blacks look nice at the sacrifice of some of the brightness.


Then ... try out something like a piece of Firehawk or Greyhawk or Dalite High Contrast Cinema Vision to see how they change the compromise to some degree. Also stuff like a Dalite High Power or a Silverstar (if you can find a sample) are impressive for their ability to return more the light to your eyes (higher gain).


Most of the DIY screen formulations put metallic paint in a flat base to try to emulate something like the Silverstar. You can try a can of silver spray paint on a poster board. It looks cool, but you'll hate the reflection of the projector that you can see in it (hotspotting). The DIY formulations try to keep the gain of the silver, but loose the ugly hotspot. Then there is Screen Goo which is a pre-formulated screen paint that can save you the trouble of mixing/experimenting yourself.


If you give all of that at go you'll know what everyone is talking about on here for the most part. Physics of light refraction notwithstanding. :)


Thanks for the answers but I am trying to avoid all that. A bit of gain would be great and I think I would prefer brighter to darker so grey is out.


I want to align and converge it and enjoy, not spend tons of time and money with painting.


I guess a 1.3 to 1.5 white screen is what I need. Anyone have links to suppliers where I can buy it fabric only?


Any one company have a better product?


Are they better than blackout matierial?


Heres a good one...is blackout material better than and super smooth wall painted with Behr Ultra White or similar?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,769 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by mikecazzx



Heres a good one...is blackout material better than and super smooth wall painted with Behr Ultra White or similar?
No. if you have a flat wall and want somthing around 1 gain use flat pure white paint. border with flat black.


Will you see the difference betwenn 1 and 1.3 gain? not likely
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
92 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by mikecazzx
Thanks for the answers but I am trying to avoid all that. A bit of gain would be great and I think I would prefer brighter to darker so grey is out.


I want to align and converge it and enjoy, not spend tons of time and money with painting.


I guess a 1.3 to 1.5 white screen is what I need. Anyone have links to suppliers where I can buy it fabric only?


Any one company have a better product?


Are they better than blackout matierial?


Heres a good one...is blackout material better than and super smooth wall painted with Behr Ultra White or similar?
I'm going through a similar experience in trying to pick out a screen. I'm no expert, but to answer one of your questions - you may want to consider a Carada screen. The Carada Brilliant White (1.4 gain) would fit your 1.3 - 1.5 gain requirements, and is reasonably priced for a framed screen. If you want to buy the fabric alone, I'd recommend you talk to Jason or Daniel here on AVS and ask them about pricing and suggestions. Figure you'll spend anywhere from about $3/sq ft to $17/sq ft for screen material, depending on where you buy and what you buy. If you are considering a material like the Silverstar, multiply the high value by about 2.5 to get the price per square foot (very expensive). You may also want to consider an ultra high gain screen for your CRT projector if you have any ambient light issues. You can find curved screens with a gain of 10+ if you look around.


One thing I'd like to add - do not spend too much time thinking about getting a gray screen! Please, listen to some of the folks that have been around on AVS much longer than I have, but do not get a gray screen. You are using a CRT projector, which already will have incredible contrast ratios and excellent blacks, you do not need a gray screen at all. You should consider either a white screen (as it appears that you are) or a high gain screen depending on the brightness of your projector, screen size, and ambient light.


Lastly, you should take a minute and figure out the following:


1. How large of a screen do you want? If you are going 8' wide, will you be doing 4:3 or 16:9? An 8ft wide 16:9 screen is 36 sq ft.


2. Light output. I believe the NEC XG 110 is about 1100 lumens (before calibration).


3. Ambient light?


4. How bright do you want it?


For example, if the XG 110 is 1100 lumens before calibration, let's assume there is a 15% loss due to calibrating (someone please chime in with the correct values!). That gives you 935 lumens. If you go with a 16x9 110" screen with a 1.0 gain you have the following:


(935*1.1) / 36 = ~28.6 foot lamberts


or if you go with a 1.4 gain you have:


(935*1.4) / 36 = ~36.4 foot lamberts




The last thing to consider is viewing angle? What sort of seating configuration will you be using? Figure the widest required viewing angle, and make sure the material you pick has an appropriate gain at that angle.


Ok, I'm done. Sorry for ranting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,154 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by unefined
I'm going through a similar experience in trying to pick out a screen. I'm no expert, but to answer one of your questions - you may want to consider a Carada screen. The Carada Brilliant White (1.4 gain) would fit your 1.3 - 1.5 gain requirements, and is reasonably priced for a framed screenOk, I'm done. Sorry for ranting.


I think I have most of those answers.


Seats will mainly be near the screen and rooms center.

Front 2 seats may be split by the table mounted CRT.


Light...what light? Darkest room in the neighborhood. Planning on covering windows, flat black ceiling and very rich dark maroonish purple paint.


I want 16:9 fixed with borders - later I can either project 4:3 into it or if I hate that buy a cheap pull down for any 4:3 and mount it in front of it.


I dont want gray - many gray screen photos at the forum look like a dirty river. No contrast or clarity. I know I dont use gray for a crt - I can see the contrast is much better.


I dont need high gain - but I think a touch of gain would be good. Is 1.3 all hype? Is there any difference between 1 and 1.3 or is it marketing? I am pulling the number 1.5 out of thin air thinking this way I have some added punch and I can back off brightness, color etc as needed if its an issue. This should be a compromise between 1.0 gain and 2.0+ exaggerated gain.


Minimum 8' wide horizontally - possibly 10' wide (the bigger is better guy thing) because I know with a CRT I wont have PIXEL issues so I will not have to sit in Mexico to enjoy it. (cheap shot on DLP technology).


So where can I get white 1.5 (8' to 10') with a bit extra for stapling down?

Best price as well?













I
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
92 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by mikecazzx
I think I have most of those answers.


Seats will mainly be near the screen and rooms center.

Front 2 seats may be split by the table mounted CRT.


Light...what light? Darkest room in the neighborhood. Planning on covering windows, flat black ceiling and very rich dark maroonish purple paint.


I want 16:9 fixed with borders - later I can either project 4:3 into it or if I hate that buy a cheap pull down for any 4:3 and mount it in front of it.


I dont want gray - many gray screen photos at the forum look like a dirty river. No contrast or clarity. I know I dont use gray for a crt - I can see the contrast is much better.


I dont need high gain - but I think a touch of gain would be good. Is 1.3 all hype? Is there any difference between 1 and 1.3 or is it marketing? I am pulling the number 1.5 out of thin air thinking this way I have some added punch and I can back off brightness, color etc as needed if its an issue. This should be a compromise between 1.0 gain and 2.0+ exaggerated gain.


Minimum 8' wide horizontally - possibly 10' wide (the bigger is better guy thing) because I know with a CRT I wont have PIXEL issues so I will not have to sit in Mexico to enjoy it. (cheap shot on DLP technology).


So where can I get white 1.5 (8' to 10') with a bit extra for stapling down?

Best price as well?

I
Get some screen samples before ordering! That being said, I differ with Tryg's comments about noticing a difference between 1.0 and 1.3. I can definitely notice a difference between a 1.0 gain like the Carada Classic Cinema White and the 1.4 gain Carada Brilliant White. Now, for pricing, I'm not going to get into that other than to say if you want to do it yourself you should definitely contact AVS and inquire about material (Da-Lite Cinema Vision?), and if you are going to buy one I'd look at getting a Carada. From what I have read here, the Carada screens have excellent trim work for a very reasonable price (read: sub $800 for what you are looking for). The material plus homemade frame, ordering material from AVS, would probably set you back sub $300. Once again, these are just ballpark figures and you should really contact AVS for suggestions and pricing.


For what it is worth, when using my Sony HS20 (LCD projector) I find a very noticable difference between 1.0 and 1.4. Maybe that would not be the case with a different projector.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,687 Posts
mikecazzx,


I have a Barco 1208 CRT projector. I think it is similar in light output to your projector.


I started with a "blackout cloth" screen that had been assembled by the prior owner of my projector and used it for over a year. It worked pretty well. The gain of a screen like it is generally considered "1.0" We watched a lot of movies on it.


I finally got around to having my projector color calibrated in May of 2003. I took advantage of the occasion to build a screen with Vutec Bright-White 1.5 gain material I ordered through Jason at AVS. I figured that it would be much better to calibrate it on a more permanent screen. (My original was not holding its shape very well and it needed replacement. The 1x2 pine it had been made of was bowing and warping more and more each month)


The 1.5 gain material made a noticeable difference in brightness (at least it seemed that way to me)


Unless you have a specific need, and have more experience, you probably will not want to go higher in gain as it causes other problems that must be dealt with. The issues are:


Narrow viewing angle - gain/brightness drops off as you move to the side of the room)


Color Shift - different angles from the three CRT's result in higher gain from one CRT vs. another, the result is one side of your screen appears slightly bluish, the other slightly redish. (Are those words?)


Hot-Spotting - The higher the gain, the more likely you will see a bright spot on the screen where it directly reflects the CRT light.


Most people with CRT's seem to think 1.3 gain is the highest you can go before these issues start to be noticed. I know I can see some color shift on my screen, but I know what I am looking for. The gain on my screen drops to about 1 at my widest angle seats. To me, this is acceptable since the center seats get a brighter image.


Anyway, if you are handy, you can save a bit by building your own screen frame. You can cover it with just about any commercial screen material you like (as many other said, it may be ordered through Jason or Daniel at AVS)


A thread illustrating the screen I built using Vutec screen material can be found here


If you are not handy, go for a commercial screen, or paint your wall with Behr Ultra White paint. It will look exactly like most 1.0 gain screens. (Same as blackout cloth, and less work)


Check out the following reviews of screens done by Tryg. (another forum member) They are probably the best for learning about various screens and screen gains.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=228371
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=240074
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=262466


Joe L.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,154 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by J. L.
mikecazzx,


I have a Barco 1208 CRT projector. I think it is similar in light output to your projector.


I started with a "blackout cloth" screen that had been assembled by the prior owner of my projector and used it for over a year. It worked pretty well. The gain of a screen like it is generally considered "1.0" We watched a lot of movies on it.


I finally got around to having my projector color calibrated in May of 2003. I took advantage of the occasion to build a screen with Vutec Bright-White 1.5 gain material I ordered through Jason at AVS. I figured that it would be much better to calibrate it on a more permanent screen. (My original was not holding its shape very well and it needed replacement. The 1x2 pine it had been made of was bowing and warping more and more each month)


The 1.5 gain material made a noticeable difference in brightness (at least it seemed that way to me)


Unless you have a specific need, and have more experience, you probably will not want to go higher in gain as it causes other problems that must be dealt with. The issues are:


Narrow viewing angle - gain/brightness drops off as you move to the side of the room)


Color Shift - different angles from the three CRT's result in higher gain from one CRT vs. another, the result is one side of your screen appears slightly bluish, the other slightly redish. (Are those words?)


Hot-Spotting - The higher the gain, the more likely you will see a bright spot on the screen where it directly reflects the CRT light.


Most people with CRT's seem to think 1.3 gain is the highest you can go before these issues start to be noticed. I know I can see some color shift on my screen, but I know what I am looking for. The gain on my screen drops to about 1 at my widest angle seats. To me, this is acceptable since the center seats get a brighter image.


Anyway, if you are handy, you can save a bit by building your own screen frame. You can cover it with just about any commercial screen material you like (as many other said, it may be ordered through Jason or Daniel at AVS)


A thread illustrating the screen I built using Vutec screen material can be found here


If you are not handy, go for a commercial screen, or paint your wall with Behr Ultra White paint. It will look exactly like most 1.0 gain screens. (Same as blackout cloth, and less work)


Check out the following reviews of screens done by Tryg. (another forum member) They are probably the best for learning about various screens and screen gains.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=228371
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=240074
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=262466


Wonderful post. Thanks.


A wall is not an option for me due to a kneewall in my lower level.


I can build a frame - have a plan to use different wood to avoid the warping issue.


Few questions.


Are you saying a 1.5 gain on a CRT is too much. I understand about the hotspot issues etc...but isnt that greatly reduced at say 1.5 vs. say 2.0 and higher?


Or...are you saying its generally not acceptable for a CRT to go past 1.3?


So...I have to build a frame anyway - so in that case in your opinion (and anyone else) is the cost of professional 1.5 bright white screen material justified over the cost of black out cloth?


Scale of 1-10


Blackout is 5

Professional 1.5 bright would be a #?


This should be a basic guide.





Joe L.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,154 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
Hi Joe. I liked your one line descriptions, especially color shift.


Mike: Scale 1-10 of what? Brightness? Then if blackout=5 units at 1.0 gain, then 1.5 gain would yield 7.5 units.


-Clarence
I guess what I would like to do is punch up the color and brightness a bit with the screen - without a screen that will give me color shift and hotspotting.


In other words - if I am spending money on screen material I want it to do something positive.


If subjectively a blackout screen look good and we would call the overall expereince a 5 - what would it be with a professional 1.5 gain screen?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,687 Posts
mikecazzx,


I'll try to answer your questions...

Quote:
Few questions.


Are you saying a 1.5 gain on a CRT is too much. I understand about the hotspot issues etc...but isn't that greatly reduced at say 1.5 vs. say 2.0 and higher?
You are correct. Hot-spotting is much more noticeable at higher screen gains. You are not likely to see it at 1.3 to 1.5 gain, you will start to see it at 2.0 gain and higher UNLESS you build a torus screen. The curved shape then turns the entire screen into one big hotspot and you get a much brighter image. You do trade off viewing angle. Quite a few members have torus screens with a gain of 3 or more and are very happy with the resulting image.
Quote:


Or...are you saying its generally not acceptable for a CRT to go past 1.3?
Some manufacturers say that that is a good general purpose screen for most installations. As I said, my screen material is 1.5 and it looks pretty good to me although you can just start to see evidence of color shift. Now, no guest to me theater has ever commented on it, you have to look for it to see it and know what to look for.
Quote:
So...I have to build a frame anyway - so in that case in your opinion (and anyone else) is the cost of professional 1.5 bright white screen material justified over the cost of black out cloth?
The cost really depends upon the size of your screen. (my screen is 96x56 or 110 inches diagonal


Most "blackout cloth" material found at your local fabric store will be 54 inches wide. This will do fine for a 16x9 screen roughly 106 inches diagonal (92 inches wide) You can get the material for under 10 dollars a yard. You can find wider blackout cloth from some sources that can be used for a bigger screen, the cost is closer to 25 dollars a yard. Check ebay but beware, some wider material has seams, you do not want that at all. The material I purchased through AVS was roughly $3. per square foot and vinyl, not cloth. (Under 200 dollars for the raw material) Now... what is affordable to you? Probably any of these...
Quote:
Scale of 1-10


Blackout is 5

Professional 1.5 bright would be a #?
Real tough to answer. Both are good, one has gain, the other a wider viewing cone. I like the brighter image... it allow me to keep the lights on low if I desire to watch HDTV sports (brighter source material) or turn them off for critical viewing.


As I said, check out the three reviews Tryg did last year (links in my prior post)... they have lots of pictures and are really great at showing relative screen performance.


Joe L.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,154 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks - I get lost in that TRYG post and cannot tell much from smaller samples. Although it as an amazing few posts!


Well $10 - $25 a yard is pretty pricey - heck thats as much as carpet.


What did you end up spending on screen material per yard?


No need for a cone or anything here.


The current plan after multiple plans and looking at the room.


"Hoping" to pull off a 10' wide screen 16:9. Does this figure out to 10'x6' - if not whats tha formula?


Boils down to a few key points.


1. Cannot use the bare wall.


2. Prefer a bit of gain if I am spending the money and taking the time to build.


3. I am good with building things, so need need for professional model entirely.


4. Always looking for price vs performance ratios.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,687 Posts
Quote:
Well $10 - $25 a yard is pretty pricey - heck thats as much as carpet.
But unlike carpet, the blackout fabric is priced per linear yard. You need about three yards. Now, the official screen material is usually priced per square foot. There, $30 per square yard is at the very low end of the price range. The stuff on ebay, you need to look at their ad to see the price per yard, most is priced like blackout cloth. (in fact, some IS blackout cloth)
Quote:
"Hoping" to pull off a 10' wide screen 16:9. Does this figure out to 10'x6' - if not whats tha formula?
I think you need to do some more reading...

You are hoping for a screen that is 60 square feet. My screen is 36 square feet. (4.5 feet x 8 feet) Assuming the same lumen's light from our projectors, that means your proposed screen would be roughly HALF the brightness of mine. (same amount of light spread over a much bigger area) Now, do you see why 1.3 vs 1.5 gain isn't the big issue, screen size is much more important? Most of us with CRT projectors have screens that are 8' wide or smaller. If you go much bigger, the image will get pretty dim and you may not be as happy.


Now, some will be happy with a image that is less bright, but don't expect to view it with the room lights on. You really need to project on your wall, or on a white bedsheet and get an idea of how bright an image you desire before deciding upon a screen material or screen size.


Joe L
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,154 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I understand what your saying.


I am planning on using a dark room.


Also - there is a thread on the forum showing screens up to 12' wide or 14.5 diagonal with no issue running that size with no brightness issues.


I think they even commented thier brightness setting was normal or lower.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
92 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by mikecazzx
I understand what your saying.


I am planning on using a dark room.


Also - there is a thread on the forum showing screens up to 12' wide or 14.5 diagonal with no issue running that size with no brightness issues.


I think they even commented thier brightness setting was normal or lower.
Have you, personally, tested a screen of this size? How far back will you be sitting? A 12' wide screen is bloody huge :eek: I'm not saying it can't work, or that some people don't do it, but for most environments that is simply too large. For the sake of your happiness and those who will be enjoying your HT with you, test this out against a wall first. If you are determined that is the size you want, start looking at curved screens which will give you satisfactory brightness and should work given the seating configuration you mentioned earlier.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top