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Discussion Starter #1
To avoid taking a gallery further off topic, I have some questions from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...02#post3234202


I'm not intending to be critical of the screens, but I'm sensitive to those who question the effectiveness of non-simultaneous digicam shots to compare different projectors and screens...

Quote:
Originally posted by MississippiMan

Hey, here is a split Shot of one of my older Silver Metallic undercoat w/ MississippiMud overcoat, painted on drywall on the Left, and produced spectacularly on a SuperDeluxe Light Fusion screen (Mirror/MM)


If that doesn't show off the difference to a Blind man..., nothing will.

(left shot taken by MM.......Right shot by CMRA)
http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/mm-cmra.jpg

Quote:
Originally posted by MississippiMan

CMRA used his Z1 LCD w/700 lumens - 600:1 CR and 8-something x 5-something resolution. $1250.00


My shot was with a Studio Experience 50-HD DLP w/Mustang 2 Chip - 1000 lumens - 1700:1 CR and 1388 x768 Resolution. $5500.00


Lumens are not a Factor. Resolution is not a Factor. Contrast ratios are not a Factor.


Both of us have excellent cameras, his is much more more expensive, mine more practical, but both capable of delivering "accurately" whats on screen to the PC. he does Exposure bracketing, I do not, so that could be a small factor.


But the difference above is too great to be generated by any 'small' factor.

It's the Screen that Screams, "Look At ME!!!"


1) You contribute the main, critical, key, or primary difference between your $5500 DLP image on the left and CMRA's Z1 LCD to CMRA's screen?!


2) Is your screenshot on the left an "accurate" representation of what potential buyers of a $5500 DLP could expect from their own early attempts on DIY screens?


3) Would your projector on CMRA's screen look even better than his screenshot?
 

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Thanks for showing a proper way to address issues on AVS.


I too have to wonder what MissMan was thinking when he published this side by side comparison.

Yes, if it was the SAME setup and the results varied as much as these do then one could conclude it was the screen.

So many variables only confuse the issue. Sorry MissMan, this is not a fair way to compare screens. The only variable that can change when doing a screen comparison is the screen.

On the other hand, I share in MissMan's excitement. I know from first hand experience the SD/MM screen gives me the greatest viewing satisfaction of any I've seen.

Earlier this evening I took a few screen shots from mine. Here is one I believe supports my position. If you like what you see here you'll like my setup too.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for understanding that my questions aren't accusational.


I appreciated your recent "accidental? cursor" shots in the other gallery.

Quote:
I know from first hand experience the SD/MM screen gives me the greatest viewing satisfaction of any I've seen.
That's what it's all about! I think that's the general consensus in my screenshot thread:
10'+ screens are foolish


My screenshot talent pales in comparison to yours, but I'm sure we can both agree that we all enjoy our significantly different projectors/screens, and the ultimate reward of watching a great movie!
 

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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
To avoid taking a gallery further off topic, I have some questions from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...02#post3234202


I'm not intending to be critical of the screens, but I'm sensitive to those who question the effectiveness of non-simultaneous digicam shots to compare different projectors and screens...









1) You contribute the main, critical, key, or primary difference between your $5500 DLP image on the left and CMRA's Z1 LCD to CMRA's screen?!

 

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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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CMRA,


I've painted and viewed many more screens than you, and evaluated many more PJs under vastly different venues than you. While that doesn't make me more fortunate necessarily, it does give me leave to make this evaluation once again. Based on comment you yourself and others made, the screen shot above, and it's accompanying brethren were classed as my best ever. This was meant to show what a difference there was in the end results, and the difference would be plain to see and understandable if the situation was reversed and the less expensive PJ was the loser.



I won't say much more until I read that thread, but at first glance, such a blanket condemnation speaks of less experience and knowledge, and more than it's share of merely personal opinion.


Having done plenty of those "foolish" screens, I have to go see what point exactly it is he's trying to make here.



Ok....I see it was a title in jest.


It pays to check
 

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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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Here is a full screen shot of a 14' diagonal screen, painted with SM/ thentop Coated w/Goo CRT white.


No, it's not an exact comparison even to SD/MM, but it does how just how good even a short throw PJ like the %0-HD can perform at giving a image 20% larger the the Mfg. reccomends.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
1) You contribute the main, critical, key, or primary difference between your $5500 DLP image on the left and CMRA's Z1 LCD to CMRA's screen?!
Quote:
Yes, I do.
2) Is your screenshot on the left an "accurate" representation of what potential buyers of a $5500 DLP could expect from their own early attempts on DIY screens?
Quote:
Yes, and don't dis it.
3) Would your projector on CMRA's screen look even better than his screenshot?
Quote:
Most assuredly. Maybe. Who knows.
4) did you use the same zoomplayer color overlay enhancements? (pre-processsing, I'm not implying post-processing)
?



Quote:
I cannot review the entire history or turn you on to every previously post pic
That's one of my main points for asking these questions... Maybe your statements can be held in context for the other hardcore Screen forum followers, but for those of us who may spend most of our learning time in our corresponding projector forums, I propose that there may be more variables than screen paint formula involved in your comparison:

- the screen paint is different

- the projectors are different

- the projector contrast settings are different

- the projector brightness settings are different

- the projector color balance settings are different

- the projector imaging technology is different

- the photographer is different

- the pre-processing color overlay adjustment is probably very different

- the digital camera is different

- the exposure times are different

- the white balance is different

- the screen sizes are probably different

- the distance from camera to screen is probably different


I too use a simple point-and-shoot camera with largely automatic settings. In the last few weeks, I've noticed that simple settings (AWB, low ISO, exposure bracketing... as described by CMRA) yielded huge improvements in my digicam screenshots.


I've tried only 2 screens... Formica and Sherwin Williams Ultra White Matte ceiling paint (chosen only because that's what my neighbor had left over from a recent project). Every one of the variables listed above make a larger difference in my screenshots than the image I get when comparing my two screens.


Can you post a comparison screenshot from your best screen? (keeping the photographer, the camera, the scene, the source, and the projector the same)?
 

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You cannot seem to realize what an effort that would take. I'm a working man who doesn't do mulitble tests and evaluations with multiple screen and PJs at a fixed location. I shoot examples of my work as they occur, and more often than not, they represent exactly what is before my eyes, or they don't get posted. How can that be misinterpeted?


You worry too much because you don't/can't/won't try to equalize out all the variables. If you were my Client, I'd show you screen shot examples, take you to 2-3 locations at your request, none of which would be EXACTLY the same of course, and you would have to judge for yourself, and where knowledge and experience is lacking, take the word of one who has all those attributes.


Too many people cannot do this with the simplest of decisions, which what we are discussing is not.


A lot of us, myself included at times, prefer to think that we can second guess whatever we see before us. That's fine for the individual, and sometimes necessary in the case of non-elective Brain surgery, but unless your paying for each independent diagnosis, evaluation, or demonstration, you are asking too much for too little for someone else to "convince you", from those who already gave at the office. Many times over, in fact to get to where they are.


It's understandable why Tryg would take issue, and even yourself, with anyone claiming to have "the best screen" right out of the Gate. 3 months of intensive R&D, countless screen shots, and much discussion of the results and procedures between peers doesn't fit that description. Even if that were not so, deriding one's efforts or methods, or expecting someone to present a depiction that meets YOUR specific criteria is unreasonable thing to ask of for all but those who live and breathe to create such things to post. Few if any of those make a living at making the products they evaluate, rather, they focus on telling others what THEY ascertain is Right, Wrong, or what ever lies between. If they are good at that, the become acknowledged Critics.


But that's not necessarily the best Title to strive for, and often results in making more enemies than friends. The best Critics don't care for other's opinions, only there own. And they have few friends, but plenty of Fawners.


You would have me go to the trouble to acquire the like of CMRAs camera, make a screen of exactly the same dimensions, and shoot the same scene?


Why?


To convince you of your own hypothesis? Or merely to help you to prove a point?


CMRA uses small Test panels. As many as 4 different ones across the same screen, with a background consisting of his old reliable ME. That's been done, evaluated, and decisions made based on those observations. Of course, validation by posting those comparison pic and getting effusive praise makes one feel even better.


But even with that, he's received posts dismissing his efforts out of hand.

But many more appreciated them for the effort they did require, as simplistic and basic a 'control' as they were..


But at this point, I don't feel it necessary to prove a thing. You overstate the issues. It is such a basic understanding that even in a controlled setting, one would always take MANY shots at different exposures, and distances, then select the ones that most closely reflect what's on screen. Why post the crappy shots?


What is exposure bracketing but essentially doing exactly that?


Honestly, your delivery is not to be faulted, but you still shroud your motive for asking what you do in a cover of being less experienced that others on the Forum. Then review, get educated, and then make your own evaluations, or at least do the former so you have more than your recent viewing of the offending screen shot on which to base your statements. Who knows, you might change your tune altogether, as many who have followed and digested the several hundred posts that comprise what's happening around us.


Or you might come back loaded for Bear and show exactly what it is your trying to say/prove, and convince me I'm in error.


Yeah, that can happen. If your read all the posts, you'd find that too.


Straight up, each new Poster wants it all laid out before them. "Make us a list of everything we need, and everything to do, and be sure to make it so foolproof that I cannot F- - K it up, and I'm assured that I'll get the same or better results as you did." Then they invariably add, "I hope that's not too much trouble.


My experience and word is what I live by, and what others must accept or reject. When I feel a need to justify, I do it in the way I feel best suits my methods and situation. I don't canvass for opinions, or request advice that I can ascertain for myself. that's why things HAPPEN when I move on them. AVS Forum discussions all too often breed more delay than action because opinions are like the prover able Anal Orifice. Everyone has one, they feel comfortable with it, and theirs's always smells sweetest to them.


I'm no different, only I don't show mine off or force others to accept it..., only know that I have one too, just like they do.


If SuperDeluxe wasn't sitting beside the SM/MM wall example, you'd be hard pressed to beat it in it's own right.


CMRA's cameras is a doozy, he knows how to use it, and does so with great vigor. He's been using a inexpensive LCD, I've been using more expensive DLPs for the most part, and a lessor Camera. I wan't trying to pass my shot off as better, rather the opposite, I wanted to point out how much better his same old PJ could take the same shot as I did, and look so much better. Every difference has been pointed out repeatedly, so why should precedent be given to fulfilling your request?


Much more reasonable to ask CMRA to shoot the same shot on all three of his different full size screens, on of which includes the very "Silver One-Coat" method I was comparing my original shot against.


I shoot my shots on construction sites, using a Samsung DVI out DVD and the PJ. CMRA uses a considerably more complex set up, but that never stopped me from holding my work up to his for comparison/ But will I spend to duplicate his gear when my shots are as good as they are? Hardly. His choice is his, not mine, and if anyone needs to adjust his thinking around why CMRA's shots are so good, they need look no further than to the sum of all his collective gear, and the screen being used. In my case it's more simple. I'm using a PJ and a DVD. period. What you see is what probably virtually everyone else would see as well.


Finally, and for the last time, look to all the screen shots, read all the treads, take week to do so if you must, but do so and then start to make your decisions based on the experience. Then repose your request in a manner that makes sense.


Your final request doesn't explain enough of what it is you want me to do exactly, and doesn't make sense for you to expect me to duplicate every criteria CMRA is using, excepting the screen. I have a Z2 in my possession at present, a PJ CMRA would gladly trade up to. I plan to send him either one of those or possibly a50-HD for him to shoot onto his SD. It is nonsense to move downward to a Z1 myself when better PJs are at hand.


But the real point is that IF CMRA's Z1 can produce such fine images on mere ME, better images on Silver One Coat, still better images on SuperPlex, and goes through the roof with SD, then the challenge is not for me to convince myself of SDs' validity. It's clearly apparent. But rather for you to accept anothers evaluation of thier own personal experience.


Just ask yourself, "How is it a $1250.00 PJ can keep producing decidedly better images with each different screen?"


The answer is there before your eyes.


Because the screen is doing all the work improving the image. That's all I was trying to say before, and really, despite the long post, and (..I mean this.) any unfair or unjustified assumptions I might have made of you or others in this or any previous post, that's really all I can say now.


It is for you to judge, based on EVERYTHING you can see or set before you.
 

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Mississipiman,


I'm sorry but I cant wade through your overly long posts. Once they start to sound like a rant I have to just skip to the next post. So I'm generally only able to read your first thought or paragraph.



Now please do us all a favor. Learn what makes a screen good then describe what charactereistics your formula has that are good.


1. We all know a screen CANT change Contrast Ratio so CMRAs screen shots tell us nothing. The best a screen shot can be used for is side by side comparisons of how bright something is, if it suffers from hotspotting, or any weird color issues. But that's only with side by side comparisons


2. Please describe or even chart the viewing angle/cone. It's not hard to make a screen that focuses more light back to the viewer (higher gain) but it is hard to make one that does this AND has a wider viewing angle. How does your's stack up to the pros?


3. Pust disclaimers in your analysis so that we dont think your trying to be a snakeoil salesman. You must disclose the facts.


4. Explain why this product would be any better or cheaper than a $200 Da-Lite matte white screen


5. Put your work in one easy to read an understand thread(SHORT!). It's unthinkable to think people are willing to spend a week of detective work rummaging through all your guys post to figure out if you learned anything or are on to something. I cant even read past your first few sentences. How could I dedicate a week to this?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tryg
Mississipiman,


I'm sorry but I cant wade through your overly long posts. Once they start to sound like a rant I have to just skip to the next post. So I'm generally only able to read your first thought or paragraph.



Now please do us all a favor. Learn what makes a screen good then describe what charactereistics your formula has that are good.


1. We all know a screen CANT change Contrast Ratio so CMRAs screen shots tell us nothing. The best a screen shot can be used for is side by side comparisons of how bright something is, if it suffers from hotspotting, or any weird color issues. But that's only with side by side comparisons


2. Please describe or even chart the viewing angle/cone. It's not hard to make a screen that focuses more light back to the viewer (higher gain) but it is hard to make one that does this AND has a wider viewing angle. How does your's stack up to the pros?


3. Pust disclaimers in your analysis so that we dont think your trying to be a snakeoil salesman. You must disclose the facts.


4. Explain why this product would be any better or cheaper than a $200 Da-Lite matte white screen


5. Put your work in one easy to read an understand thread(SHORT!). It's unthinkable to think people are willing to spend a week of detective work rummaging through all your guys post to figure out if you learned anything or are on to something. I cant even read past your first few sentences. How could I dedicate a week to this?
Tryg,


I would suggest to look at the screen shots as you would

when ordering off the menu board at Burger King.


The Whoppers are nice and thick with crispy lettuce

and beautiful red slices of tomatoes hanging ever

so carefully to the edge of the bun. Umm.. yummy..


But that ain't reality. That's clever marketing.

Be it big juicy Whoppers, nice shinny cars or

a million other things that are given to

ideal representation as evidence of reality.


Sometimes it's true, more often it is not,

but it is all marketing. Caveat Emptor.


b2b
 

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There is no secret underlying motive, the members are just trying to get you to realize this fact for yourself: while they are fun, you can't tell anything from a screen shot that has so many different variables, nothing, nada. A standalone photo is also useless. CMRA's photo showing different materials together with the image projecting on those materials is a great example of a method that provides a real way to judge the aspect of different screen materials.


You are missing the point that anyone is criticizing the screen itself. Not one person has said that the screen sucks. It may be the second coming of screens, but you would gain more by not claiming that a screen shot is proof of the fantastic qualities of your methods.
 

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exactly. The screen could be great but the fact is the screenshots aren't accurate and to imply they are is silly and misleading.


bugs me some people post screenies and act like that is exactly what the image looks like. I know it isn't true. The camera changes things big time.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
My question was only a suggestion to reduce some of the other potential factors in your screenshot comparison:
Can you post a comparison screenshot from your best screen? (keeping the photographer, the camera, the scene, the source, and the projector the same)?

Quote:
Originally posted by MississippiMan:

You would have me go to the trouble to acquire the like of CMRAs camera, make a screen of exactly the same dimensions, and shoot the same scene?
Quote:
Originally posted by MississippiMan:

Your final request doesn't explain enough of what it is you want me to do exactly, and doesn't make sense for you to expect me to duplicate every criteria CMRA is using, excepting the screen. I have a Z2 in my possession at present, a PJ CMRA would gladly trade up to. I plan to send him either one of those or possibly a50-HD for him to shoot onto his SD. It is nonsense to move downward to a Z1 myself when better PJs are at hand.
I'm sorry. I didn't want you to go through any of that trouble. You posted an A/B comparison, but B was CMRA's screenshot. I was asking for an "A vs C" comparison... since you've already posted "A", all I was hoping to see was another shot ("C") taken with your same camera and same projector that you used with screenshot "A" on your current best screen ("C"). Or are you still using screen "A"? Although after you'd seen the improvements from CMRA's screen, I doubt that's the case.


I understand you're busy. PJs and screens are "only" a hobby to me, so I can also understand if you're defensive since your talents are also part of your livelihood.


I was only hoping to provide motivation or inspiration or a chance for you to show off your current state of the art screen while removing as many of the distracting variables as possible. Sometimes it helps me to respond to someone's queries... I've been asked "but what does your large screen look like if the room's not totally black?" so I provided a picture with 5 out of 6 of my basement lights turned on.


When I indicated that I used a 1 second exposure, someone asked me if that made it look brighter than it really is. So I took an auto exposure at 0.3 seconds. I didn't take those queries as "trouble" or demands or ultimatums for proof. I took them as inspiration to further illustrate the results from my newbie low-budget setup which I'm very proud of, just as I'm sure you're proud of your top-quality work.

Quote:
Originally posted by MississippiMan:

To convince you of your own hypothesis? Or merely to help you to prove a point?
I don't have a hypothesis. I only have a hobbyist's interest in discussing and learning whether screenshots have too many variables to accurately compare different screens or projectors if too many factors are changed.


I'm very interested in Screens. And I'm very impressed with the improvements that DIY'ers have documented in this forum. I'm moving in a few months and I'm trying to learn as much as possible to determine what screen we should use in our new house instead of my current $7 pieces of drywall.


I'll try to continue learning without asking too many demanding questions.


Keep up the good work.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by rlindo


bugs me some people post screenies and act like that is exactly what the image looks like. I know it isn't true. The camera changes things big time.
So the camera made this look like this? What can I say? World's greatest camera for sale. A steal at only $50,000.
 

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Does everyones computer display they are viewing the screen shots look the same? I calibrate monitors for print media and I know what the difference an uncalibrated monitor looks to one that is, it would make screen shots look different. On my calibrated monitor that I use that is for news print I find all screen shots look like crap but that is the heavy bias to yellow to match the news print. I would have to agree with Tryg that usefulness of screen shots are minimal.
 

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QUOTE]Originally posted by marcosyscom


My question was only a suggestion to reduce some of the other potential factors in your screen shot comparison:


>>>>>.



I was only hoping to provide motivation or inspiration or a chance for you to show off your current state of the art screen while removing as many of the distracting variables as possible.


>>>>>>


I didn't take those queries as "trouble" or demands or ultimatums for proof. I took them as inspiration to further illustrate the results from my newbie low-budget setup which I'm very proud of, just as I'm sure you're proud of your top-quality work.


>>>


I'm very interested in Screens. And I'm very impressed with the improvements that DIY 'ers have documented in this forum. I'm moving in a few months and I'm trying to learn as much as possible to determine what screen we should use in our new house instead of my current $7 pieces of drywall.


>


I'll try to continue learning without asking too many demanding questions.


>>>>


Keep up the good work.


Look for the comparison shot real soon. I gotta reboot the PC to restart my card reader
 
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