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Discussion Starter #1
Hi All,

I'm changing over from 1 Mini Marty to two sealed subs (7cu ft max). The price of these two drivers is within 5% of each other here in the UK.

Data-bass:

Amps I have are SpeakerPower SP1-1200 (1200W - 100V/38A max). Any idea which driver would be better? (Room is fairly small around 1700 cuft).
 

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What driver did you have loaded in the minimarty? What are you looking to improve on? Do you have any room measurements with the minimarty in place?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
What driver did you have loaded in the minimarty? What are you looking to improve on? Do you have any room measurements with the minimarty in place?
I have a UM18-22 in the Minimarty currently. Uncorrected response at he MLP for this Minimarty is attached.

There are three things I want to solve:
1) The Mini Marty is aesthetically bit too large in the room
2) Smaller boxes combined with two subs should give me more placement options and I hope for better bass consistency across the room.
3) My Ceiling speakers need a crossover of about 110hz and the Marty seems to struggle with this.

In general the Marty seems to give more than enough low bass output in that room although even with Dirac enabled bass is not that consistent across the 3 primary listening positions.

3047575
 

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You have a huge null in your frequency response. You really need to get that corrected. Are you able to move your sub and/or seating? Just temporarily of course.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
You have a huge null in your frequency response. You really need to get that corrected. Are you able to move your sub and/or seating? Just temporarily of course.
Sorry I put the wrong graph up. 😳

New one includes when I moved the sofa forward around a foot which helps quite a lot (Teal line). Moving the Mini Marty to the only other possible location at the front of the room made very little difference and was slightly worse so I left it at the original back of the room location. Teal line is the best I can do uncorrected and as you can see bass changes significantly when just moving the MLP 18 inches.

Dirac does help alot with this although I cant take any measurement right now as my prepro is in for repair and I'm trying to get the best I can from placement and subwoofer choice before relying on Dirac.

3047582


Edit: One had smoothing now both lines unsmoothed
 

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Are you familiar with winisd? You can model each driver in the box you decide to use🙂
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Are you familiar with winisd? You can model each driver in the box you decide to use🙂
Thanks.

Am trying to setup the B&C cone in Winisd but I dont seem to have quite all of the parameters from their product page.

Just noticed that data-bass has a comparison feature and both cones were tested using a small sealed enclosure so pretty close to what I intend to use. Seems that the B&C offer alot more output above 40hz and the Dayton is a little bit better below 40hz. Both cones look like they will be easily pushed into distortion in the lower frequencies with 1200W but this isnt enough to exceed the Max SPL so is safeish (?).
 

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The difference is how much each driver starts to break up. At the same 115db drive level the NSW is considerably more composed below 30hz than the B&C and the UM18. The B&C levels raising even sooner. The distortion does present itself at high levels, no way around it if your cranking it up. I put the LaVoce in as well since it is always asked about. This is why I like the NSW better for the extra money. All the green are the 115db sweeps except for the NSW, the black line is the 115db sweep.
Lavoce214 distortion.PNG
NSWDISTORTION.PNG
DS115 Distortion.PNG
Dayton um18 distortion.PNG
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The difference is how much each driver starts to break up. At the same 115db drive level the NSW is considerably more composed below 30hz than the B&C and the UM18. The B&C levels raising even sooner. The distortion does present itself at high levels, no way around it if your cranking it up. I put the LaVoce in as well since it is always asked about. This is why I like the NSW better for the extra money. All the green are the 115db sweeps except for the NSW, the black line is the 115db sweep.
View attachment 3047708 View attachment 3047704 View attachment 3047705 View attachment 3047706
I understand and it does indeed look better. To put it in perspective though the NSW costs more than double the Dayton and B&C here in the UK.

Is distortion at higher volumes the most important measurement?
 

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Not if you arent planning on cranking them up or just buy more to keep from over driving them. Everything is subjective to a point, how much distortion you are willing to live with at what levels is personal.

Distortion is what even the most uninformed person can pick out in audio if it's high enough.

It's not the most expensive driver on the market by any stretch, but you do get what you pay for. I just bought a high end LCD over an OLED because price was more important. I also tend to be less tolerant of bad audio than a bit of video harshness.
 

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I understand and it does indeed look better. To put it in perspective though the NSW costs more than double the Dayton and B&C here in the UK.

Is distortion at higher volumes the most important measurement?
IMO it's absolutely not worth double the price. For a few hundred? Yep, for $700-800? Absolutely not.

Right now, the Eminence is triple what I can get a ds115 for. You start getting into just buying double the drivers if that's the cost and you want more output.
 

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You may want to look into Beyma, they are a European company so you might be able to find them cheaper over there, not sure.

If you want chestkick stay with the pro drivers, if you want more earthquake rumble, get the high excursion drivers.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
IMO it's absolutely not worth double the price. For a few hundred? Yep, for $700-800? Absolutely not.

Right now, the Eminence is triple what I can get a ds115 for. You start getting into just buying double the drivers if that's the cost and you want more output.
Thanks. Pricing is quite different here in the UK, I think the B&C costs double the Dayton in the USA, but here the B&C is only 10% more.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
You may want to look into Beyma, they are a European company so you might be able to find them cheaper over there, not sure.

If you want chestkick stay with the pro drivers, if you want more earthquake rumble, get the high excursion drivers.
There are indeed two 21 Beymas available for a similar price to the B&C and Dayton. They are 8 ohm though which does not seem to be an ideal match for my plate amps. Do you know of any reviews or measurements for the Beymas?

What are your thoughts on mixing a B&C 21 with a Dayton UM18? I thought maybe the B&C could provide some of the higher crossover bass for the ceiling speakers whilst the UM18 does a little better in the low end. From what I have ready mixing sealed drivers should be OK(?)
 

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What are your thoughts on mixing a B&C 21 with a Dayton UM18? I thought maybe the B&C could provide some of the higher crossover bass for the ceiling speakers whilst the UM18 does a little better in the low end. From what I have ready mixing sealed drivers should be OK(?)
That seems to be a common theme--that is, a two-way sub system. Having experimented with MBM's, it certainly does work but setup takes a little more work to get them integrated.

I've thought about adding a pro driver sub to my dual UM's out of curiosity. I don't really need it for my room and preferences, but if I can convince the wife, why not?
 

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The difference is how much each driver starts to break up. At the same 115db drive level the NSW is considerably more composed below 30hz than the B&C and the UM18. The B&C levels raising even sooner. The distortion does present itself at high levels, no way around it if your cranking it up. I put the LaVoce in as well since it is always asked about. This is why I like the NSW better for the extra money. All the green are the 115db sweeps except for the NSW, the black line is the 115db sweep.

Those same graphs are why I chose the LaVoce over the NSW. On a sub-per-sub basis the NSW performs better as should be expected given its price increase. It has a larger coil, more Xmax and lower distortion when pushed. NSW is 6 ohm though, measured in the sealed box is 10 ohms at 27 hz and goes up from there, so one needs an amplifier with sufficient voltage capability to drive it or jam two of them in an enclosure and then you need something stable into that load. The Lavoce is higher impedance still, but now high enough that now it looks good to run two in parallel with the amps I already have... which also looks good when checking the driver price. In my case I have a pile of existing amps kicking around that would match pretty good with two LaVoce or two B&C's. With the assumption that I'm willing to have a larger enclosure (applicable to me but certainly not everyone), two B&C's or LaVoces beat the NSW across the board. System wise, consider that there will be several double-driver boxes and any of the driver choices are just loafing around. By far the biggest sound difference will be target frequency response and implementation into the existing system. If I could only have two single-21" driver boxes I'd choose the NSW.

To the OP's question, I liked the UM18 and found the midbass fine when calibrated properly. That said, the LaVoce and B&C offerings are roughly equal to the UM18 down low with gobs more midbass available. It's sometimes glossed over that the pro-audio offerings will absolutely have to be strongly equalized, i.e. you won't get the most out of a UM18 throwing it in a sealed box and letting Audyssey have it's way with it, but it'll sound ok. IMO the pro offerings will not without dedicated (significant) signal shaping. It's not a huge deal as we ought to be doing at least room correction down low but it's worth mentioning. The above holds true even moreso if one chooses to use a house curve. Between the UM18 and the LaVoce both sealed, the LaVoce in ~6cuft and the UM18 in ~4cuft, both eq'd to the same target frequency response, I like the LaVoce better. The midbass has more impact, has a "live sound" sort of feel and it's super clean. Great punch, which is fun, and it keeps that punch even when you make the midbass calm down about 6 notches.
 

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The OP is gonna have all sorts of problems integrating stuff unless his plate amp has advanced DSP, or buys an external miniDSP or switches over to inukes.

The higher end Pro 21's make the UM-18 irrelevant for the most part.

That said, a pair of SI-24's powered with a single FP14kDSP would probably put out enough bass at all frequencies to make most people happy. (most) LOL!
 

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The DS could also be tamed down like the LaVoce and still be great. One of the reasons I moved to the NSW, they run great without any eq up top, and very little down low is needed.

Are you suggesting that the NSW doesn't need signal shaping like all other pro-audio drivers?
 
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