[MrWigggles]

I got censored today after saying the following two sentences:


Title: Pap's thread disappeared.


Body: Must have been an interesting read.


It's been fun. I'll be back when I have my Panamorph in hand and things have settled out. I don't know how many months that will be, but I am confident it will happen.


Right now I feel I'm at a car dealership where the salesmen are giving me all the lip service that I can take; they might be acting polite but nothing more. I have only one option and that is to walk out. It is their property.


This has been a great forum. Have fun.


-Mr. Wigggles


EDIT for Clarification:


By being vague not to point the finger at anyone, I guess it looks like I pointed the finger at everyone.


The censorship of my post didn't offend me as much as it simply stated how touchy the situation is. Alan, has to deal with fools like Ken_Lennon and everything else. He is trying his best I know. Bullets are flying all over the place; I need to find a rock to hide behind.


To me, the Panamorph situation is "an elephant in the living room." I can't think about anything else when I'm here and it is interfering with my other posts. It just leaves me in a sour mood.


Sorry for the confusion.


------------------------------


The Mothership is gone.


[This message has been edited by MrWigggles (edited 07-06-2001).]

 

[PAP]

This is exactly what I was afraid would happen.




------------------

Lex MC1/Sunfire CG/Hales Rev3's x3/M&K SS150 tripoles/Quadscan/Plus UP1100/Homemade screen

 

[Phat Phreddy]

Hey guys....


Take a deep breath.... Think about how hard it is to keep this place so different from the dross that is usenet etc and for a monent visualize the difficulty of clean and easy moderation... (moderation in moderation is what I always strive for)... I agree with you in many ways (PAP's post has been allowed to stand this time in Shawns thread if your interested) but attempt to stand with the shoe on the other foot... Its not easy...


Just take time out and come back tomorrow.. I personally would be sorry to loose you Mr Wiggles as you are definitely a 'contributor' here...


C U Tomorrow (hopefully)


------------------

[email protected]
HTPC without using windows... GUI Front Ends for Home Theater

 

[noah katz]

Mr. Wiggles,


This is really sad, because I think Alan's concern that the sour grapes crowd would drive people away has backfired, and instead he's driving you off. It would really be a shame to lose someone with your knowledge, wisdom, and good cheer.


I think Alan overreacted and there was no good reason to delete your post. But please cut him some slack for the exemplary job he's done til now at hosting this forum. I think he's just a bit panicky that what was until now an incredibly good-natured forum was going to crumble apart before his eyes; I know I had that same fear.


I hope you'll reconsider.


Thanks


------------------

Noah


[This message has been edited by noah katz (edited 07-06-2001).]

 

[Hugomed]

Sorry to hear about Mr. Wiggles

Hope to see you back soon ..


The Pani will come when it comes Shawn has made the mistake of setting shipping dates and crushing peoples hopes I remember How people where looking forward to the Final Four and the panamorph.


I think this is the heart of peoples frustration.

Best thing to do is just give updates of the progress not a shipping date. Until your certain.

I know when I work On an Airplane that comes to the hanger we have to give an estimate of repair time and we add 2 hours to that just incase. Dispatch has to schedule the airplanes for routs so its important of the time release.

Same holds true to the lenses if you think you will be shipping in 3 weeks add a few more to the unforeseable troubles that might arise.


I regret not getting in on it when I had the chance.



Allen needs to just take a day off the forum and let the post just die out like other posts in the past they usually do. Sometimes its just better to ignore.


Don't add gas to the fire.


IMO Hugo




[This message has been edited by Hugomed (edited 07-06-2001).]

 

[arrow]

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWigggles: Right now I feel I'm at a car dealership where the salesmen are giving me all lip service that I can take; they might be acting polite but nothing more. I have only one option and that is to walk out. It is their property.

Oooh we're doing analogies now!


Here's mine: Right now I feel like a chicken who's feathers have been plucked on a sunny Monday afternoon http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


Wiggles, here's hoping you stick with us! You're a bright and knowledgeable person, add great value to the forum, and I enjoy reading your posts.


If you must go, best of luck to ya in all your endeavors.


--Les

 

[Mark Hunter]

This is sad. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif


Wiggles, I am one of the few that know that you don't look like that Avatar picture, and I am really going to miss you 'round here.


I truly do hope that you return when everything is normal again.

 

[darth maul]

Ya, I agree Mr wiggles.


If they can't take a customer saying something bad about them and the level of service being shown, I kind'a wonder why they in business in the first place. The customer is always right, no matter what. And I say this as a former moderator of www.digitaltheater.com, if they said something bad about me, or the forums or the rest of digitaltheater, I didn't care (ok I cared, but I tried not to show it). Because it was their OPINION's!!! And if these boards are here for opinions, counting out "joe's" or "tom's" cause they don't agree with ya.....man I feel sorry for ya. I hope AVS doesn't agree with a lot of the things posted here, cause I don't (i.e. like I don't agree with those saying $1,000 power cords are a good upgrade), but at the same time they are just voicing their opinions. Some opinions are based in facts, some grab them from thin air or rumors, some figured "it" out on their own, but no matter how they do it, I don't agree with some it, and you probably don't agree with some of it. But darn it all, if they think waiting a year+ for something that was promissed a long time ago by cygnus and this business called AVS, and they want to express their opinions about it, why should you care AVS? If that opinion is based in facts, it looks like you are trying to hide the truth when you delete the threads. If the opinion is based from something out of thin air, then most intelligent people will see thru it. And if its an opinion that has come about from false hoods, then darn it all, discuss it as you see fit, but don't rip someones OPINION off of here cause you don't agree with it.


Of course that is JUST my OPINION, which is based on my experiences, anyone is more the free to disagree.

 

[Morbius]

Mark,


I'm disillusioned - you say Mr. Wiggles doesn't look

like his Avatar?! What good are Avatars! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


Wiggles - hope to see you back when the dust settles.


Greg

 

[Jim Tittle]

I wondered who was going to be the first person to play the melodramatic "I'm leaving the forum" card. I must say I didn't expect it to be Wiggles. His posts have always had the patina of sarcasm that made me believe he would not go for the Hallmark-after-school-special sentiment of a farewell to the forum pronouncement.


Now of course we will have 50 people chiming in about their favorite moment with Wiggles. "he seemed so alive just yesterday...I can't believe he's gone" Haven't we all experienced this kind of cyber-wake before? And more importantly, doesn't the cyber-deceased always come back to life?


If any thread deserves to be deleted, it is THIS one.


If Wiggles thinks he can no longer feel comfortable at the forum, I am sorry to hear it. But I am MORE sorry to see that he felt it necessary to make this self-righteous Patrick-Henryesque "Give me liberty or give me death" type of post.


So the Panamorph is late: get over it already!!!!! The constant and relentless drumbeat of panamorph-complainers is a lot like the kids on summer vacation saying over and over in the car "are we there yet...are we there yet...are we there yet." Guess what? Their complaining doesn't make the car arrive at its' destinatioon any faster, and just ruins the trip for everyone else.


I for one completely support Alan and David's attempts to prevent the forum from becoming ruined by an endless barrage of "is it done yet?...is it done yet?...is it done yet?" posts.


And for the record, I am in the first Panamorph prebuy. However, I have decided to try and enjoy the trip even though I wish we had already arrived at our destination.

 

[JoeFloyd]

Darth,


Just as others have pointed out, there has been a difference in the threads that have been causing the current turmoil. The major complaints in the threads were about a small number of individuals that have been spreading FUD. When presented with alternatives and first hand information from the parties involved it should have brought an end to the counter productive discussions or at least diffused the level of rhetoric that was being thrown around. For whatever reason, the response of a couple new members has been along the lines of labeling those who chose to wait patiently with an optimistic outlook as a "mutual admiration society." When such a polarized opinion is posted it becomes a lightning rod that will attract even more attention and not all types of attention is either appropriate or even healthy. Ok, what's the harm it's only one persons opinion. But it's inappropriate to express certain opinions in public. This is especially true about opinions that relate to the character of fellow forum members.


As such, the real question is one of how Alan and David can promote a level of professional behavior even while we all disagree. I personally think they do an excellent job, even going above and beyond the call. For example, David Bott called me and we chatted for almost and hour a few weeks ago over the Tivo video extraction software. He didn't have to do that, but I think that it says a lot about how seriously they take our opinions and try to effectively balance our desires against the realties of running a business and just being nice guys who happen to run the best home theater site on the internet.

 

[arrow]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Tittle: If any thread deserves to be deleted, it is THIS one.

What?!?!? And delete my great analogy???


BTW, I'm sorry to see Wiggles go, but I still side with Alan and David (and now Jim) 110%...wait I mean 111.


--Les

 

[Frode]

Umm.. just a suggestion for the mods/admins. On another board I frequent instead of just deleting threads they lock them. They also first post to the thread stating why they lock it. That makes the mods presence more visible, and it also allows people to understand why something was locked - even those that didn't read the thread in the first place and hopefully learn something. If someone disagrees with the locking they can post in the feedback forum. I feel this is better because sometimes moderators do make mistakes - and sometimes why something was locked isn't that all clear and needs to be explained further. Locking should also help from people asking the same thing over and over again. This whole deleting thread just gives a censorship taste.


------------------

/frode

 

[Cain]

Alan, I run two Public BBS type Forums like this one.


Please let me share my experience with you, and I hope you will implement my suggestion.


Posts like this one have little to do with Wiggles deciding to leave, he can do that without making a post to try to embarrass you and rally his supporters around him. If he really is insulted he should simply not come back, also the only thing he said that I agree with is that this is your Forum, and as such you can do what you wish, and everyone should realize that and accept that as a fact.


I suggest you make a new Section, called "Rants" or "Non-HT Topics", or "Misc" or "Battlegrounds" or something.


When you get a post like this one or another one folks are complaining about, just move it there. People who enjoy bitching and grand-standing will all go there and ***** and grandstand with each other, and it stops clogging up the other sections with this type of crap.


Just a thought..


-- Cain

 

[aerialman]

Sorry to see you leaving Wiggles. Always enjoyed reading your comments.


a general comment on the boards here: I think with the increased popularity, the boards have really lost in quality- lately its been "mines bigger than yours" and that can be had at any number of sites.


- Jerry

 

[JeffY]

While I don't go for the 'I'm off, look I'm going' type posts I do think that the forum is being over moderated at the moment and the Panamorph argument would have died by now if left to run it's own course. Instead we have had thread after thread after thread, why?, because the threads are being closed and for little reason. Alan has said that threads are being closed as a result of complaints from other forum members, this is backed by the number of posts that highly object to anyone who moans about the late Panamorths or whatever. People who have paid their money and have waited much longer than expected are entitled to have a moan, it is their god given right. On the other hand the only people entitled to object are (in the Panamorph saga case) Shawn and Alan. So for the sake of the forum I would like to ask the likes of Arrow to stop it, you are only making matters worse. As for ownership of the forum, it's largely irrelevant, it's the members who count. For those of you who want a break you are welcome to join us Brits on the Home Cinema Choice forum. No need to troll Usenet.


Jeff



[This message has been edited by Alan Gouger (edited 07-06-2001).]

 

[Alan Gouger]

Sorry Jeff I edited your post. If you read the rules no advertising or self promotion. Your signature line was concidered so.

If I let that stay this thread will turn into a (why cant I add a link to my post if he can) thread.

)


------------------

Alan Gouger

Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com

 

[JeffY]

Alan,


I'm merely a long standing member of the HCC forum, considering the number of plugs that your forum gets from the HCC forum I'm very disappointed. I myself must have plugged this forum about a dozen or more times.


Jeff

 

[Alan Gouger]

Hi Jeff

Because this thread is not your typical nature please follow the rules.

Feel free to add your link in a future thread in the body of the text but not in the signature.

I have visited your forum myself and it is a great forum.


Thanks for understanding.


------------------

Alan Gouger

Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com


[This message has been edited by Alan Gouger (edited 07-06-2001).]

 

[mflaster]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Tittle: I for one completely support Alan and David's attempts to prevent the forum from becoming ruined by an endless barrage of "is it done yet?...is it done yet?...is it done yet?" posts.

Actually, I believe there have been many threads along the lines of "Shawn, can we have an update?" "Shawn, what's going on?" "Shawn, when will you ship, please contact me first", and I don't believe any of those have been deleted.


The first set of posts that were deleted were deleted I believe because they were judged to be inflammatory (although personally I disagreed - I think some of them were just unhappy people complaining in a mature and at least somewhat constructive manner). I believe people tried posting similar things in less and less inflammatory/objectionable ways, but that those posts continued to be deleted.


The next set of posts that were deleted were those that strictly questioned the censorship, and were clearly not inflammatory. I can only assume they were deleted because they were off-topic?


The reason I love AVS is because I thought that the tried-and-true response to people that you think are flaming is to ignore them. When I first came here, I'd be amazed to see posts which were somewhat inflammatory, and the responses would completely ignore the inflammatory part, and would actually respond to any factual content. I'd never seen that before on the internet! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


I can very much understand Mr. Wiggles frustration. Censorship is the most frustrating thing that can happen to you in an online forum. If you don't feel like you can be heard, well, it makes you want to go elsewhere. And I wouldn't call the announcement of his leaving 'unnecessary' or 'melodramatic' - rather, you're trying to tell Alan, in the strongest terms possible, that you strongly disagree with some of his recent decisions.


Anyway, I think emotions are running high due to the panny issues, everyone has varying levels of frustration, and everyone is willing to express their frustration to varying degrees. Hopefully, things will calm down. I also hope that in the future moderators will only very rarely see the need to pull a thread.


Mike