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Other than buying a used single-tuner box like the Sony DHG-HDD250/500 or LG LST-3410a, your only (still upcoming) option would be E*/Sling's TR-50 DVR. It'll have dual ATSC receivers and an integrated hard disk (size not yet known), the same style of guide as appears on E*'s 622 and 722 DVRs, and USB expandability for storage. (There's some debate on whether NTSC will be supported or not.) The price isn't yet known, but there will be no monthly fees for guide data - it'll be provided via ATSC datacast for free. See this thread for more about it.


Or you could buy a TiVo HD with Lifetime service... just saying.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonfoo /forum/post/14256393


E*/Sling's TR-50 DVR.

That's out of the running because it's OTA only and the OP is on cable, according to his previous thread.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbell /forum/post/14257885


That's out of the running because it's OTA only and the OP is on cable, according to his previous thread.

Guess I should've checked that old thread. That leaves the Sony (which is single tuner, and out of production), the TiVo with lifetime (dual tuner), and the cableco DVRs (which pretty roundly suck, and would involve fees to the cableco). There are the Gefen and Hauppauge HD DVR boxes, but those record via component, and I don't know if they offer a program guide or how they work... is there anything I'm missing?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ftaok /forum/post/14258672


The discontinued LG HD-PVR (single tuner);

A cable card PC

I'm pretty sure the LG doesn't do digital cable (or if it does, it's clear-QAM only, no CableCARDs; I know the Sony does have a CableCARD slot). Also, he said he did not want a PC-based solution, which is why I avoided mentioning it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I know that the tech is available, its just that the rental cable boxes are big money makers for the companies. But I still can't believe someone is not filling this niche.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindwarper /forum/post/14260407


I know that the tech is available, its just that the rental cable boxes are big money makers for the companies. But I still can't believe someone is not filling this niche.

No one's filling the niche because the companies that tried it earlier on in the lifecycle of ATSC (Sony and LG, with their DVRs) ended up pulling the products because *they didn't sell*. Turns out American customers would generally rather lease the box from the cableco than cough up the up-front cost of those boxes. Even the TiVo, which is quite nice IMO, isn't seeing huge numbers. Americans in general tend to be cheap-ass bastards, so while the technology does in fact exist, I think you'll keep seeing it not surface here, since the major CE vendors know that they're not going to sell enough to make it financially worthwhile for them.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonfoo /forum/post/14260527


No one's filling the niche because the companies that tried it earlier on in the lifecycle of ATSC (Sony and LG, with their DVRs) ended up pulling the products because *they didn't sell*. Turns out American customers would generally rather lease the box from the cableco than cough up the up-front cost of those boxes. Even the TiVo, which is quite nice IMO, isn't seeing huge numbers. Americans in general tend to be cheap-ass bastards, so while the technology does in fact exist, I think you'll keep seeing it not surface here, since the major CE vendors know that they're not going to sell enough to make it financially worthwhile for them.

People still record the TV shows with VCR!!!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nguyej1 /forum/post/14265394


People still record the TV shows with VCR!!!

Yes, and VCRs are a lot cheaper to make than DVRs, especially HD DVRs. Making a DVR requires microprocessors, disk drives, software, possibly MPEG encoding chips... there are a lot more parts, and they cost more than a VCR. The simple fact is that customers aren't generally willing to pay what it costs. A few are, but not enough to make a *thriving* market for such devices.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci /forum/post/14266927


True. Some people still record HD on D-VHS.

Yeah, but that's another subject entirely; D-VHS is a whole lot more expensive (you don't see D-VHS decks for
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci /forum/post/14266927


True. Some people still record HD on D-VHS.

First, I am under the understanding that you can't purchase a stand alone HD recorders that can off load non copy protected copies because of US copy protection laws and agreements between all of the major electronics manufacturers to honor them. It has nothing to do with penny pinching American buying habits. You can buy these type of recorders in every other country for reasonable prices, because those other countries do not have the stringent copy protection laws. However I am not certain the above is an accurate assesment of the situation.


I am still using an old standard VHS deck regularly. In fact I have recently been looking into purchasing a used HD VHS deck, so I can record OTA HD. I stumbled into the archived equipment page of JVC and found that they are still advertising a HD VHS tape recorder for sale.


Evidently you can still buy the JVC HM-DT100U, HD VHS tape recorders. I say evidently because I have found several web sites that offer the option to purchase, but have not actually contacted them to see if indeed they have them in stock. The prices are running at a steep price of around $1000. I have been trying to get an honest review of that deck. This thread, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post14275937 seems to portray a horror story for the JVC brand of recorders in general. I sure don't want one if what they are saying about JVC equipment is true.

My questions about the above tape recorder are:


1)Of course, what is the reliability of them.

2)Is this truly an old deck that is still on the shelves, or is it a new release by JVC containing the new copy protection schemes on all of the new HD equipment? I ask this question because several sites are stating they are out of stock, but will take back orders.

3)What is the availability of the D-VHS medium?


I hope my comments add to this discussion, and I would love to hear some comments in return.
 

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For what's it worth, you CAN pull unprotected content off a Series 3 TiVo, or TiVo HD unit. I do this all the time with broadcast HD -- I can transfer it to my PC or Mac (file transfer, not video), and either watch it there, or burn it to a Blu-ray or AVCHD format DVD (which will play in HD on a Blu-ray player). It's a pretty cool thing.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Braun /forum/post/14276926


First, I am under the understanding that you can't purchase a stand alone HD recorders that can off load non copy protected copies because of US copy protection laws and agreements between all of the major electronics manufacturers to honor them. It has nothing to do with penny pinching American buying habits. You can buy these type of recorders in every other country for reasonable prices, because those other countries do not have the stringent copy protection laws. However I am not certain the above is an accurate assesment of the situation.

The legal issues are a little different from what you've outlined, per my understanding.


The applicable US law is the DMCA -- Digital Millenium Copyright Act. Amongst other things, it makes it illegal to sell equipment that circumvents copy protection technologies.


Over-the-air digital broadcasts in the US are not copy protected, which means that the DMCA doesn't apply to digital tuners and recorders that are capable of receiving only broadcast signals. That's why you can buy digital OTA tuner cards for your computer that allow you to make non-copy protected recordings of HD broadcasts. Some of these tuner cards will also work with non-encrypted digital cable signals.


However, if a digital tuner/recorder is designed to work with encrypted digital signals from cable, the situation changes. Some of these channels are copy protected, which means that a cable tuner/recorder must honor the restrictions that go with the level of copy protection for those channels. But I suspect that the biggest restrictions don't come from the law, but rather from the licensing agreements that manufacturers must sign with Cable Labs in order to make and sell a cable card compatible device. The licensing restrictions can (and almost certainly do) go past the restrictions imposed by DMCA.


Aside from the above, manufacturers can (of course) choose to go beyond the requirements of the DMCA and any applicable licensing agreements. In essence, they can voluntarily choose to further cripple the products that they sell in order to make content producers happy and avoid even the possibility of lawsuits.


Then, finally, comes the issues surrounding the potential market for any HD recording devices.


The consumer electronics companies are largely locked out of making any products that would be compatible with HD satellite services, because the satellite services have chosen to control the market themselves -- and they're not offering products that let you offload non-copy protected recordings. The (sort of) workaround that exists here is a device like the new Hauppage component HD recorder, which can redigitize and recompress the HD analog outputs of a satellite receiver.


With a license from Cable Labs, CE companies could offer HD recorders that are compatible with most cable systems -- and with whatever restrictions on the outputs are mandated by the Cable Labs license. TiVo is doing just this, but they're pretty much alone right now. Because, in the end, not many people seem to be willing to pay a bunch of money for a product that they can "rent" from their cable company with no upfront expense.


So that leaves the prospect of making a flexible and fully-functional HD recorders that is designed to work with off-air digital broadcasts. It could be rendered more flexible by adding HD analog component video inputs. I'll happily pay good money for such a product, as would a number of folks on AVS Forum. But we're a sufficiently small market that no one really sees it as much of an opportunity to make money. Personally, I think that there is some decent money to made with such a product -- but it is probably of a scale that would be suitable for one of the smaller CE companies. In other words, I'm not holding my breath waiting to see anything released by Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, et al.
 

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Thanks for the repy, Mr. Desmond, it was very informative. I might disagree that the market for those DVR's we all want is a small market. I recently talked to a sales person at a local big box store and he said they have requests every day for HD DVR's (or the like) but they have none to offer. He said that he was told the Sony HD DVR's were removed from the shelves because of potential law suits. IMO even the rank and file consumer is looking for a way to replace their old VCR or DVD recorder for use with their new HDTV's. Not just making a copy that can only be viewed again on your own set, but making a copy to take to your friend's house to watch together - like a football game. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.


I can't help but notice that our country seems to go to great effort to protect the interests of big business, but falls short at protecting the fundamental rights of it's citizens. Some where along the line the common man has been forgotten. How free is the enterprise when you can't purchase what you want, only what you are allowed to have, while there are companies on the sidelines that would love to sell you exactly what you want if it were legal? It is one thing to have laws to punish piracy for profit, another to allow those same laws to limit an individual's freedom of choice - especially in his own home.
 

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Myself and probably most everybody at AVS would agree with you, but being the realist that I am I don't think it will happen. The Fox is guarding the hen house in the US with regards to recording HD in a sharable HD format. I for one think it stinks big time and it's one reason I'm still using SD DVDRs long after getting my HDTV. I want that flexibility to move a disc from one TV to another. Even the OTA TR-50 may end up having some kind of key, enabling the USB HDDs to only play on the machine they were recorded on. If this is the case I'm really not sure what I'll do. I won't accept my HDDs being basically blank after my TR-50 dies, but I don't want to go back to linear HD video tape either
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Braun /forum/post/14279058


Not just making a copy that can only be viewed again on your own set, but making a copy to take to your friend's house to watch together - like a football game. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But even when the technology is offered at fairly reasonable prices, American consumers would rather have a monthly recurring fee charged from their cable company for poor attempts at the same, rather than paying a reasonable price for the better option. Note the success of the SA and Motorola DVRs, even while even cursory investigation reveals expansive lists of complaints from many customers, while options like the TiVo HD don't sell too well. This technology isn't cheap, but don't be too quick to say "well, no one's giving me what I want, there's a conspiracy!"


The blame doesn't just fall to the CE vendors - they're selling what sells. How about that? When they get hung out to dry after trying to sell the technology we claim to want, they're leery of trying it again. What a concept. We need to blame ourselves for the lack of technology we want to buy - we need to buy what we claim we want, or stop whining at the CE vendors for not providing it.
 
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