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Selecting a Subwoofer: TV1512 vs VTF15

10400 Views 40 Replies 21 Participants Last post by RBhifi, Jul 25, 2021

Endgame-24

Discussion Starter · Jul 23, 2021 (Edited)

What's up AVS, I would like your assistance in selecting an upgrade for my aging PB 1000. Which one among these would you pick and why?

1. HSU VTF15 MK2 (around $1100 shipped)
2. PSA TV1512 (around $1500)

I have heard good things about PSA, that is why it is on my list. However, I can't find any data about them.

I would like to know how PSA TV1512 manages to accomplish 14Hz anechoic with considerably less excursion than HSU or others such as SVS. Do you think it can outperform the HSU by SPL down low or is it just 14Hz-170 at 80dB? The reason I am asking is because I have seen discussions on Audioholics Forum that it is impossible for TV1512 to achieve high SPLs at that extension due to excursion limits (12mm 1 way). Why can't PSA send review units to Audioholics and others for CEA-2010 review?

I have also visited B&C website and I can see that the 15SW100 woofer, which is in the TV1512 (with a bit of modification) has Fs of 37Hz and recommended tuning of 35Hz. Even with DSP and sensitivity of 95dB, is 14Hz not a bit extreme for the driver? If those drivers are so good for ULF, why aren't other companies such SVS or Rythmik using them to reduce weight, for example.

No hate for PSA, I would love to one day own duo TV21 IPALs. Please do not turn this into a fight, I want this to be a one stop shop for anyone googling TV1512 rather than misinformation on other forums.

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eljaycanuck

· #2 · Jul 23, 2021 (Edited)

Endgame-24 said:
What's up AVS, I would like your assistance in selecting an upgrade for my aging PB 1000. Which one among these would you pick and why?

1. HSU VTF15 MK2 (around $1100 shipped)
2. PSA TV1512 (around $1500)

I have heard good things about PSA, that is why it is on my list. However, I can't find any data about them. ...

No hate for PSA, I would love to one day own duo TV21 IPALs. Please do not turn this into a fight, I want this to be a one stop shop for anyone googling TV1512 rather than misinformation on other forums.

Since your goal is dual TV21 IPALS, IMO you should start with one of those now and add another when additional funds permit. No point buying a 15 (or two) now only to lose money when you upgrade to the 21s.

That said, if you're adamant about getting a 15 (or two) now I'd go with the tried-and-true VTF-15H MK2.

Reactions: 5

bargugl

· #3 · Jul 23, 2021

The PSA doesn't use the 15SW100. It uses a custom modified 15DS115. It has more xmax than 12 mm plus xmax numbers aren't always a good indication of true linear excursion capability (many subs fall short of supposed claims in true capability, while others have more in the tank than indicated. If you were to see actual kippel driver reports, you would see that B&C drivers tend to be able to maintain linearity through a greater portion of their excursion range than what you see with many other companies). An xmax stat is literally one of the most misleading specs you can have when used in isolation for judging driver capability (but makes for great marketing fluff). Audioholics main subwoofer guy and Tom V of PSA have a beef that goes back literally about 20 years and he will never recommend a PSA subwoofer and Tom V will never send a sub there for review. Nothing more should be said about that. I personally don't have qualms with either guy and think its too bad as each have done a lot for the community. In a ported sub, excursion capability is much less of an issue, because the cabinet itself plays a huge part in low end capability. The PSA sub cabinet is simply tuned lower that is how it extends lower. No magic about it.

Both the Hsu and PSA are good subs. Many have heard both and they will all tell you that they are both great subs. Which one you prefer is going to come down to you. Otherwise, there is a chance you will get a bunch of fanboys flaming each other. The best course of action is to buy one of each and see which you prefer (which is true for any subwoofers that you may have questions on). If someone doesn't want to do that, then they should make a list of known plusses and minuses of each and see which of those are most appealing (PSA has better warranty, is mostly US built, has lower extension, Hsu can run in various modes, is cheaper cost, etc).

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Reactions: 5

Deaf-Forever

· #4 · Jul 23, 2021

As always, @bargugl has taken the time for a thorough answer. The short answer is buy HSU if on a budget. Buy PSA if not. I've had the "TV" series. Those "anemic" "short throw" B&C woofers not only near jumped out of the cabinet, they were rocking the 120+ pound cabinet to the point of it almost walking across the room. That's what those cheap, weak, B&C drivers CAN do with their insane motor strength. Motor strength that few other speakers have. Which also makes them great for music. Sealed like even.

I'm not sure who nominated us to prove to you who's the best. We can tell you with great accuracy who is but in the end it's up to you to "prove" anything.

Why doesn't everyone use B&C? Why don't you drive a diesel 1 ton crewcab dually? Cost and size maybe? Tom has them built for his particular use. It took a lot of work. Most people probably aren't quite as driven as he. Chinese woofers are literally a dime a dozen.

The PSA will (numerous user measurements posted here, you did search, right?) Provide usuable output into the teens in an appropriately sized room and make music sound incredible. The HSU will mostly do the same. Get to proving!

Edit: My short answer! 🤣🤣🤭

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Reactions: 5

dbissett

· #5 · Jul 23, 2021

Auditioned 15" models from both companies at home. Went with PSA hands down. Frankly, deep bass sounded like bass drum on the HSU regardless of settings. Not so with PSA. Movies will shake walls too. Never have bought the second one, but lucky you if you do. Would have like to hear Rythmik but can't imagine a better bass tone. Maybe next time.

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badtlc

· #6 · Jul 23, 2021

If you really want TV21ipals then this is a no brainer. Get the TV1512 because Tom V will give you a fantastic deal when you trade in the TV1512 for the upgrade down the road. You'll do way better than secondary market resale $ you'd get for the VTF15.

also, from user measurements, it would appear that the TV1512 has deeper extension than the VTF15 but you are paying a premium for the extra extension and additional output of the TV1512.

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Deaf-Forever

· #7 · Jul 23, 2021

Or better yet, prove us wrong. 😈😘

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Mike Lang

· #8 · Jul 23, 2021

I've had a pair of VTF-15Hs for many years that get used daily and continue to love them.

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M_Hustla

· #9 · Jul 23, 2021

You can't go wrong with either sub in typical use.

Not that it's hurting PSA's bottom line that much, but it would be good if the PSA subs were tested by a third party. The "in the wild" information suggests it should do very well.

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basshead81

· #10 · Jul 23, 2021

Excursion capability doesn't mean "as" much with Low Tune vented alignments since the Vent is what is producing most of the output around the systems tuning point. Around 20hz is where the system will be excursion limited on the PSA and where the HSU will likely have some advantage. Below 16hz and above 50hz the PSA should be stronger. Aside from that I would expect the PSA to sound cleaner, leaner, and more detailed with the driver it uses.

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bargugl

· #11 · Jul 23, 2021

Well Ricci is basically retired from the testing game and Audioholics is out by default. That leaves Butterworth and Erin's audio corner. If one of those guys lived close to me, I'd be tempted to invite them over for a beer and go find a field nearby. Honestly, I think the only chance of getting one tested any time soon is if someone foots the bill for one and sends it to Erin.

From repeated comments he has made on the subject, as long as Tom keeps selling faster than he can make them, he feels no obligation to send any out for review (and doesn't want to make a paying customer be jumped over for a review sample). Plus, although he was an early proponent of CEA, his view of people misusing and misinterpreting the numbers on message boards (and of testers ignoring test parameters in the spec he deems important) has soured him a lot on it. Whether you agree or disagree, it is what it is. Not that I think he is against testing and objective data, though, the guy has tested more subs of various makes than most of the reviewers out there.

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badtlc

· #12 · Jul 23, 2021

bargugl said:
From repeated comments he has made on the subject, as long as Tom keeps selling faster than he can make them, he feels no obligation to send any out for review (and doesn't want to make a paying customer be jumped over for a review sample). Plus, although he was an early proponent of CEA, his view of people misusing and misinterpreting the numbers on message boards (and of testers ignoring test parameters in the spec he deems important) has soured him a lot on it. Whether you agree or disagree, it is what it is. Not that I think he is against testing and objective data, though, the guy has tested more subs of various makes than most of the reviewers out there.

This sums it up well. On top of this Tom V does provide response graphs for his products on this site and there hasn't been anyone yet who claims the PSA products don't meet Tom V's claims.

The only real question left seems to be exactly how loud to these 12 series and Ipal subs get?

eljaycanuck

· #13 · Jul 23, 2021

badtlc said:
... Tom V does provide response graphs for his products on this site ...

IMO it would be more helpful if he were to post them on their respective product pages. I checked all of them just now and (as far as I could tell) every one of them indicates that a graph is "coming soon".

E.g.:

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badtlc

· #14 · Jul 23, 2021

eljaycanuck said:
IMO it would be more helpful if he were to post them on their respective product pages. I checked all of them just now and (as far as I could tell) every one of them indicates that a graph is "coming soon".

E.g.:
View attachment 3157337

The PSA website gets updated maybe 2 times a year. Getting orders shipped is far more important.

eljaycanuck

· #15 · Jul 23, 2021 (Edited)

badtlc said:
The PSA website gets updated maybe 2 times a year. Getting orders shipped is far more important.

I agree that getting orders shipped is top priority, but as you pointed out "Tom V does provide response graphs for his products on this site" so, clearly, getting orders shipped isn't preventing him from posting graphs. My point is simply that it would be more helpful to have those graphs posted on their respective product pages where prospective customers would expect to find them.

Reactions: 1

Endgame-24

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jul 23, 2021

bargugl said:
It uses a custom modified 15DS115

Thanks for correction.

bargugl said:
The PSA sub cabinet is simply tuned lower that is how it extends lower.

Can't others do the same if it was just about tuning the box? Makes a lot of sense though. Good to know that it is not just about Xmax

dbissett said:
Frankly, deep bass sounded like bass drum on the HSU regardless of settings

Would you know without a side by side comparison?

Musty Hustla said:
Not that it's hurting PSA's bottom line that much, but it would be good if the PSA subs were tested by a third party. The "in the wild" information suggests it should do very well.

"Not that it's hurting PSA's..." seems like a comfort zone. Especially when misinformation is out there and new users have nothing to prove otherwise other than word of mouth. How about he provides own info like HSU or Monolith does and let others prove him wrong?

basshead81 said:
Excursion capability doesn't mean "as" much with Low Tune vented alignments

This brings me to my final (?) question, what makes JTR so special? Especially considering that his subs are known for very high excursion figures and are known (objectively) to be really good.. Jeff seems unbothered with "clean" sounding IPALs and has some of the most expensive subs in the market. Don't you guys think that Jeff would have already taken advantage of IPALs to create killer subs since his pricing is even more than Tom's?

bargugl

· #17 · Jul 23, 2021 (Edited)

Endgame-24 said:
Can't others do the same if it was just about tuning the box? Makes a lot of sense though. Good to know that it is not just about Xmax

Yes - Rythmik already does this and Hsu could if they wanted to redesign in this way.

JTR combines both a huge box and a lot of excursion. They also don't sell any subs smaller than 18" so you have the combination of substantial surface area to go with the the excursion. Excursion still make a difference in ported, but it is only one part of a multi-part equation. In sub design, you have to consider the system as a whole. The interplay of port, cab, and driver are what makes something work or not work and in properly designing the cab and port, you need to consider several different aspects of the driver in order to optimize the package. (and that's before throwing things like DSP into the mix). Some drivers will not perform well just throwing them in a low tuned box. There's a lot of trade-offs and compromises to be had in driver design.

Put simply, the JTR subs are just a whole lot bigger than most everything else and when it comes to subs, bigger is almost always better.

Reactions: 4

dpc716

· #18 · Jul 23, 2021

Endgame-24 said:
This brings me to my final (?) question, what makes JTR so special? Especially considering that his subs are known for very high excursion figures and are known (objectively) to be really good.. Jeff seems unbothered with "clean" sounding IPALs and has some of the most expensive subs in the market. Don't you guys think that Jeff would have already taken advantage of IPALs to create killer subs since his pricing is even more than Tom's?

Take a look at the summary of subs tested at data-bass and sort the list by 16hz output. JTR offers crazy output, especially below 25 hz which is the most difficult to provide. You do pay a premium for performance.

JTR, Rythmik, PSA products all have things in common as well as differences and the output and sound quality characteristics of each reflect the goals and preferences of their designers. What's right for one person might not be best for another. For me, dual CAP4000 ULF would be a waste; the combined output of all my subs is roughly equivalent to one and even that can be too much. For someone else that might be perfect, or they might want even more.

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements

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badtlc

· #19 · Jul 23, 2021

Endgame-24 said:
This brings me to my final (?) question, what makes JTR so special? Especially considering that his subs are known for very high excursion figures and are known (objectively) to be really good.. Jeff seems unbothered with "clean" sounding IPALs and has some of the most expensive subs in the market. Don't you guys think that Jeff would have already taken advantage of IPALs to create killer subs since his pricing is even more than Tom's?

JTR is focused on home theater and does it damn well. I got to hear some JTR subs in person last month. Phenomenal for movie viewing experience. LFE was visceral. Not the best for music to my ears. Everything is a compromise.

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tvuong

· #20 · Jul 23, 2021

eljaycanuck said:
IMO it would be more helpful if he were to post them on their respective product pages. I checked all of them just now and (as far as I could tell) every one of them indicates that a graph is "coming soon".

E.g.:
View attachment 3157337

I have been mentioning about the above for quite sometime now. "coming soon" has been at least 4 years now

eljaycanuck said:
I agree that getting orders shipped is top priority, but as you pointed out "Tom V does provide response graphs for his products on this site" so, clearly, getting orders shipped isn't preventing him from posting graphs. My point is simply that it would be more helpful to have those graphs posted on their respective product pages where prospective customers would expect to find them.

Apparently I missed a post (more likely from someone in my ignored list). Sound like someone wants to defend Tom V (if not himself) from not posting data measurement on the website? If that is the case, just quit already please! If Tom V has time to post in avs and other forums, he has plenty of time to update his website with "coming soon" data. Please don't tell me he has not had time for the last 4 years, seriously!

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