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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone know if there are actually seven DACs in my Yamaha RX-V675?


What I'm trying to figure out if that means there would be discrete conversion for each of the 2 channels in stereo. Only higher end integrated amps seem to include dual DAC's and it is at a cost premium.


If there are indeed seven Burr-Brown DACs in my Yamaha, how could the unit retail for $599, even with the market saturation of AVRs?


Thanks.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by barberfunny  /t/1523329/separate-dacs-for-each-channel-in-receivers#post_24503947


Anyone know if there are actually seven DACs in my Yamaha RX-V675?


What I'm trying to figure out if that means there would be discrete conversion for each of the 2 channels in stereo. Only higher end integrated amps seem to include dual DAC's and it is at a cost premium.

I can't find an exact service manual for that AVR, but based what I see in recent Yamaha AVRs in that price range, they implement that function with a number of stereo DACs.


I wouldn't leap to any conclusions about how many channels of DAC function are in one chip package relates to sound quality as some of the best DACs around are packaged 8 to the chip.

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If there are indeed seven Burr-Brown DACs in my Yamaha, how could the unit retail for $599, even with the market saturation of AVRs?

Burr Brown (now a division of Texas Instrument) makes a number of different 24/192 DAC chips that run from about a dollar each on up. There is no special sound quality magic that goes with the Burr Brown name nor the names of their leading competitors being Crystal Semiconductor, ESS, and AKM. They all make chips at various price and performance points. One the best DAC chips out there, the ESS 9018 contains 8 DAC functional units on 1 chip. It's not cheap either!
 

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If you mean seperate individual chips then I believe any receiver comes with a seperate DAC chip for each channel. Audio DACs used in receivers come at least two DACs to a chip. However all use sperate DACs for each channel. While apparently back in the 80's it wasn't uncommon for CD players to share a single DAC between both channels, I don't believe this is remotely economical today. Burr Brown DACs aren't anywhere near as expensive as you seem to believe. They can be had for less than $1 per channel in quanity.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk  /t/1523329/separate-dacs-for-each-channel-in-receivers#post_24504250


I can't find an exact service manual for that AVR, but based what I see in recent Yamaha AVRs in that price range, they implement that function with a number of stereo DACs.


I wouldn't leap to any conclusions about how many channels of DAC function are in one chip package relates to sound quality as some of the best DACs around are packaged 8 to the chip.

Burr Brown (now a division of Texas Instrument) makes a number of different 24/192 DAC chips that run from about a dollar each on up. There is no special sound quality magic that goes with the Burr Brown name nor the names of their leading competitors being Crystal Semiconductor, ESS, and AKM. They all make chips at various price and performance points. One the best DAC chips out there, the ESS 9018 contains 8 DAC functional units on 1 chip. It's not cheap either!
Again, more misinformation.... 😳

Burr Brown manufactures many, many multi-channel DACs both 6 channel for 5.1 and 8 channel for 7.1..

Here is a link for the subject lineup, a qwik review should be done before spewing out false information...😏

Also note that in significant purchase qtys, the cost per channel is about $0.20 not $0.50 as mentioned in the subject post.

So an 8 channel DAC will have a cost of about $1.60, not $4.00 as mentioned above....

http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/audio-ic/audio-dac-product.page


Just my $0.05... 👍😉
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
So, does that mean the DAC or plural DACs in my receiver are of lesser quality than stand-alones? I see that the newer Aventage models include ESS Sabre which I have read great things about, but I am not going to spend that much money on a receiver upgade now over that.


I could investigate an outboard DAC like and Arcam or Peachtree? Might that be worthwhile?


Are the rarity and high cost of dual DACs in stereo integrated amps related simply to lower demand, making it a weak upsell for units like the Onkyo A-9070?


Trying to get comfortable with spending my budget all on nice speakers and sticking with my AVR instead of wasting money switching to an integrated.

I guess I am just trying to pinpoint any verifiable sacrifice in SQ by driving nice speakers with an AVR over an integrated.


ArnyK, thanks for all of your insights on my earlier posts in the 2 channel forum, by the way.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Ridge  /t/1523329/separate-dacs-for-each-channel-in-receivers#post_24504324


If you mean separate individual chips then I believe any receiver comes with a separate DAC chip for each channel.

Not exactly. Mono DAC chips are pretty rare. I've looked at the service manuals of dozen of modern AVRs and find that some are implemented with stereo chips and some are implemented with 8 channel chips, even if this results in one or more sections being left idle.

Quote:
Audio DACs used in receivers come at least two DACs to a chip.

Agreed, even if this disagrees with your opening statement, above. Typically, how ever many DAC functions are in the chip package, they are all implemented on one piece of silicon chip.

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However all use sperate DACs for each channel.


Agreed. Since there are chips with 8 DACs on them that run well under $2, there is no economic reason to accept the complexity and performance issues related with time sharing DACs. I found instances of time-shared chips through the 1990s.


The original CDP 101 used an 8 bit chip that was time-shared 4 ways, 2 ways for L&R channels and 2 ways for the high and low order 8 bits.

Quote:
While apparently back in the 80's it wasn't uncommon for CD players to share a single DAC between both channels, I don't believe this is remotely economical today. Burr Brown DACs aren't anywhere near as expensive as you seem to believe. They can be had for less than $1 per channel in quanity.

Agreed. A quick survey shows that there is a BB 8 channel chip that sells for well under $2. OTOH, there is a high end BB chip with 2 channels that runs just under $17.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by barberfunny  /t/1523329/separate-dacs-for-each-channel-in-receivers#post_24504496


So, does that mean the DAC or plural DACs in my receiver are of lesser quality than stand-alones? I see that the newer Aventage models include ESS Sabre which I have read great things about, but I am not going to spend that much money on a receiver upgade now over that.


I could investigate an outboard DAC like and Arcam or Peachtree? Might that be worthwhile?

This may be your opportunity to buy the same chip twice and have it in two different boxes in your audio system!

Quote:
Are the rarity and high cost of dual DACs in stereo integrated amps related simply to lower demand, making it a weak upsell for units like the Onkyo A-9070?

I see no evidence that stereo integrated amps use any better sounding converters than comparable AVRs.

Quote:
Trying to get comfortable with spending my budget all on nice speakers and sticking with my AVR instead of wasting money switching to an integrated.

Hold that thought!
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I guess I am just trying to pinpoint any verifiable sacrifice in SQ by driving nice speakers with an AVR over an integrated.

Good luck on that!
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ArnyK, thanks for all of your insights on my earlier posts in the 2 channel forum, by the way.

You seem to be very hard to convince because after all this, I can still imagine you pining after a stereo integrated amp or even separates. Go buy some! It is not my money! ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Haha funny, unfortunately I don't have the money to waste. I'm just trying to get my money's worth from any expensive speaker I'd consider or they wouldn't be worth the investment to me. Now a receiver upgrade could be in order in a couple years just due to internet/streaming functionality and other features.


In the mean time, I will spend my money on speakers.


What about a dedicated CD player and or better speaker wire?


Currently I spin CD's in my Panny blu-ray player and my only complaint is that I can hear the player spinning.

I am using regular 14 gauge speaker wire with basic banana plugs.


I could kill a few birds with one stone with an Oppo blu-ray player...but then this thread is about the quality of DAC in AVRs so I realize I'm veering.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk  /t/1523329/separate-dacs-for-each-channel-in-receivers#post_24504529


Not exactly. Mono DAC chips are pretty rare. I've looked at the service manuals of dozen of modern AVRs and find that some are implemented with stereo chips and some are implemented with 8 channel chips, even if this results in one or more sections being left idle.

Sorry, I meant to say I don't believe that any receiver comes with single channel DACs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Any advantage to dual mono DACs?


I'm going to guess ArnyK says NO WAY!!!
 

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A lot of dual DACs can be converted to differential drive - where one produces an inverted waveform and the other a non inverted one, so it can feed a differential amp.


Additionally, multiple DACs on a chip can mean every one of those blocks can be matched up together so they perform practically identically. It's much more difficult to match discrete DACs together.
 
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