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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have Definitive Procinema 600 speaker system. I set up the subwoofer with their option 1b, where I use both speakers wires in ans LFE in, and set the low pass filter at 85 Hz. Question is, what frequency crossover to set in the receiver? I have Yamaha RX-a730, where the speaker caliberation automatically sets it at 120 Hz. Can some expert here explain how this works? Will receiver send filter frequency above 120 Hz for center and surround speakers, and the subwoofer will further filter 85 Hz and below for sub itself, but pass 85 and above frequncy to its front speakrs out. Thus my back surround and center will only produce frequency above 120 Hz but front will produce above 85, and sub below 85.


I am a complete audio noob, so need help to set this up right.


One other question is Yamaha is rated at 90 watts per channel, but definitive procinma speakers are rated at 150 watts. Is there any danger of clipping and damage if I play receiver too loud? In DTS video, the volume knob is at 0 to 1.5 db, and I am afraid of damage.


Thanks.
 

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Set the subwoofer crossover all the way up to the very highest and let the receiver completely handle the subwoofer crossover. If the receiver is saying 120hz, then you should let it do that. Your receiver is measuring the actual response of the sub and speakers in the room, and generally the crossover it recommends will be the lowest that is actually working well in your room, even though the sub manual might recommend something different.
 

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And yes. There is a danger of clipping the amp. Just don't run it so loud that the sound is starting to distort.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Since I have both front speakers and subwoofer out from receiver to sub, the sub manual specifically said to put the lowpass filter at 12 o clock i.e. 85 Hz. There is a second option that said to keep the lowpass filter turned all the way up to 150 Hz, which does not use speakers cable, just the sub out.


Based on your reply, should I just disconnect the speakers cable to sub, and connect the speakers direct to receiver? ( The manual prefers the speakers through sub and 85 Hz lowpass. Here is what manual says: ( I use variation of optional hookup with setting as small speaker, the manual says nothing about receiver crossover, hence this question)


Method 1

1. First, wire the + (red) terminal of the left channel speaker wire output of your receiver

or amplifier to the + (red) terminal of the left channel speaker wire

(high level) input of your ProSub.

2. Next, wire the – (black) terminal of the left channel speaker wire output of your

receiver or amplifier to the – (black) terminal of the left channel speaker wire

(high level) input of the ProSub.

3. Repeat Steps 1 and 2 for the right channel.

4. Wire the + (red) terminal of the left ProMonitor 600 to the left channel + (red)

speaker wire (high level) out on the back of the ProSub.

5. Wire the – (black) terminal of the left ProMonitor 600 to the left channel – (black)

speaker wire (high level) out on the back of the ProSub.

6. Repeat steps 4 & 5 for the right ProMonitor 600.

7. Set the low frequency filter control on the back of the subwoofer to approximately

10 – 12 o’clock. Please note that the exact frequency will depend on many factors

including specific positions of the speakers in the room, so you might experiment

with a slightly higher or lower setting to achieve ideal blending between the sub

and the satellites for your particular set-up. Listen to a wide variety of music to

determine the correct setting for this in your system.

8. Set the subwoofer level control to approximately 12 o’clock. Please note that the

exact level depends on many factors including your room size, positions of the

speakers, etc. as well as your personal listening taste, so you might experiment

with the subwoofer level while listening to a wide variety of music until you

achieve the ideal setting for your system.

9. Wire your center channel to the center channel out on your receiver (or center

channel amplifier) and your left and right rear surround speakers to the rear

channel outputs on your receiver or rear channel amplifier (taking care that all

speakers are in phase, i.e. + (red) to + (red) and – (black) to – (black).

10. Set the bass management system of your receiver or decoder for “Large Left and

Right Main Speakers,” “Small Center” and “Small Rear Surround Speakers” and

“No Subwoofer.” All the bass information including the .1 channel LFE signal

will be directed to the main left and right channels and into the subwoofer giving

you all the benefits of Dolby Digital.


Option for Method 1 Hook-Up

An option on this hook-up (if your decoder will allow you to select “Large Left and

Right Main Speakers” and a “Subwoofer”), in addition to the hook-up as described

above, is to use an RCA-to-RCA low level cable to connect the LFE/sub-out on your

receiver to the low-level LFE/sub-in (the lower RCA input) on a ProSub. Tell your

bass management system that you have “Large Left and Right Main Speakers” and a

“Subwoofer” and “Small Center” and “Small Surrounds.” You will then be able to

raise the LFE .1 channel level being fed to the subwoofer by either using the LFE/sub

remote level adjustment on your decoder (if it has one) or the LFE .1 channel level

control on your Dolby Digital channel balancing procedure. This set-up has the advantage

of allowing you to set the low frequency level on the ProSub for smooth balance

with music while also allowing you to “juice up the bass” for movies with the controls

on your decoder. It should also sound somewhat better.


Variation on the Method 1 Optional Hook-up

One variation on the optional hook-up is to hook up and adjust the system as

described under “Optional Hook-Up” except select “Small Left and Right Main

Speakers” and a “Subwoofer” on the bass management system (along with “Small

Center” and “Small Rear Surrounds”). The advantage of this over the Optional Hook-

Up will be somewhat greater dynamic range (i.e., you can play the system louder).

However, depending on the specific characteristics of the crossovers designed into

your bass management system, the transition and blending between the satellites and

subwoofer may not be quite as smooth and continuous as the Optional Hook-Up, or

with the basic hook-up detailed above in Steps 1 – 10. However, if you wish to play the

system louder, you can experiment with this variation. In addition, this variation is also

one which can be used if your decoder bass management system does not allow a

“Large Left and Right Main Speakers” and “Subwoofer” setting.

We encourage you to experiment with the various settings on your subwoofer,

settings on your decoder, and hook-up options as described until you find the best

combination for you.
 

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Right. You should use the subwoofer pre-out on your receiver and run it to the LFE input on your subwoofer, then let the receiver handle the bass management like I said above. Your speakers should be hooked to your receiver. This is the optimal method.


After you hook it up that way, you should rerun YPAO with your microphone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
OK, I will try that. The reason I tried other way, was what the manual recommended, and what some of the reviews said, here is one from Cnet: http://www.cnet.com/products/definitive-technology-procinema-600/

Anyway, to finish my optional set up to compare with the tradional method you mention, is there some way to adjust crossover in receiver?


An odd wiring procedure--using the subwoofer's inputs and outputs--is required to get the optimal sound from the system.


You can hook up the ProCinema the usual way and run all the satellites as "Small" speakers and let your AV receiver handle bass management, but Definitive recommends an alternate hookup method to maximize sound quality. Basically, you run the front left and right speaker cables to the corresponding inputs on the subwoofer, and then run a second pair of cables to the actual speakers. Indeed, it does sound a bit better--producing a better blend between the satellite speakers and the subwoofer--but it was somewhat annoying to have to deal with those extra cables.
 

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Then try it both ways and see which you like better. Most of us would use the receiver to manage the crossover, but that doesn't mean you might not like it better the other way.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
That brings back my original question. What bass crossover frequency to set in my receiver?

I did check sub manual. Hi pass filter in sub is 100 Hz. Lo pass at 95 Hz. Should receiver be at 100 Hz crossover?
 

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If you are using the LFE plug on the sub connected to the receiver, reread this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145  /t/1524785/setting-crossover-for-definitive-procinema-600-subwoofer#post_24543343


Set the subwoofer crossover all the way up to the very highest and let the receiver completely handle the subwoofer crossover. If the receiver is saying 120hz, then you should let it do that. Your receiver is measuring the actual response of the sub and speakers in the room, and generally the crossover it recommends will be the lowest that is actually working well in your room, even though the sub manual might recommend something different.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaveri  /t/1524785/setting-crossover-for-definitive-procinema-600-subwoofer#post_24543416


Definitive recommends an alternate hookup method to maximize sound quality. Basically, you run the front left and right speaker cables to the corresponding inputs on the subwoofer, and then run a second pair of cables to the actual speakers.
When you do that you lose the LFE content, and you only have basic 1st order filtering of the content to the mains. That lets a lot more low frequencies into the mains than the higher order filter of the AVR crossover. If you like that you can accomplish the same thing by using the AVR crossover, setting it to a lower frequency, and that way you don't lose the LFE content. As for what Audyssey recommends, trust, but verify. The crossover should be set as low as the mains will comfortably reach. I'd start with 80Hz, and if the mains seem to struggle going that low I'd try raising it in 10Hz increments until they don't. Running the crossover too high introduces directional content into the subs. If you must run the sub higher than 80Hz an can directionally locate it turn the sub amp low pass filter frequency down until you can't locate it, but no lower than the AVR crossover frequency.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice  /t/1524785/setting-crossover-for-definitive-procinema-600-subwoofer#post_24545151


When you do that you lose the LFE content, and you only have basic 1st order filtering of the content to the mains. That lets a lot more low frequencies into the mains than the higher order filter of the AVR crossover. If you like that you can accomplish the same thing by using the AVR crossover, setting it to a lower frequency, and that way you don't lose the LFE content. As for what Audyssey recommends, trust, but verify. The crossover should be set as low as the mains will comfortably reach. I'd start with 80Hz, and if the mains seem to struggle going that low I'd try raising it in 10Hz increments until they don't. Running the crossover too high introduces directional content into the subs. If you must run the sub higher than 80Hz an can directionally locate it turn the sub amp low pass filter frequency down until you can't locate it, but no lower than the AVR crossover frequency.

Bill: When I use the spekers cables through sub, I also have LFE through sub. I want to try your recommendations. Please let me know if this is correct. I should leave the LFE cable in sub from receive, but take speakers cables out, running them directly from Yamaha to spekers, bypassing sub. Then I should use Yamha's cross over frequency low, for me 10Hz above main means 80 Hz, and keep on increasing till main can handle low freq. By the way, since the sub now only has LFE, should low bypass in sub turned all the way up to 150 Hz?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaveri  /t/1524785/setting-crossover-for-definitive-procinema-600-subwoofer#post_24545191


Bill: When I use the spekers cables through sub, I also have LFE through sub.
Running both the LFE and the speaker level inputs to the sub is a mess. That means the only low-passing of the non-LFE signal to the sub is that afforded by the sub amp filter.

You should only use the speaker level inputs to the sub when there's no other choice, ie., when you have an old 2.0 receiver. Why Def tech says so I can't imagine, maybe that comes from the same guy who writes their frequency response specs.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice  /t/1524785/setting-crossover-for-definitive-procinema-600-subwoofer#post_24545238


Running both the LFE and the speaker level inputs to the sub is a mess. That means the only low-passing of the non-LFE signal to the sub is that afforded by the sub amp filter.

You should only use the speaker level inputs to the sub when there's no other choice, ie., when you have an old 2.0 receiver. Why Def tech says so I can't imagine, maybe that comes from the same guy who writes their frequency response specs.

I see. So I just removed speakers cables out from sub, only LFE. Setting low pass in sub to max according to manual at 150 Hz, and setting Yamaha cross over to 80 Hz. I am testing now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaveri  /t/1524785/setting-crossover-for-definitive-procinema-600-subwoofer#post_24545288


I see. So I just removed speakers cables out from sub, only LFE. Setting low pass in sub to max according to manual at 150 Hz, and setting Yamaha cross over to 80 Hz. I am testing now.

Just finished testing. For whatever reason, the music sounded better at loud volumes when speaker wires and LFE were both run through sub. My yamaha has 90 watts per channel power rating, but speakers are rated at 150 watts, thus are mismatched with yamaha. Is it possible that since sub is 250 watts, it is supplying extra power to the speakers even though it is a mess to run both speakers and LFE through sub?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhaveri  /t/1524785/setting-crossover-for-definitive-procinema-600-subwoofer#post_24545288


I see. So I just removed speakers cables out from sub, only LFE. Setting low pass in sub to max according to manual at 150 Hz, and setting Yamaha cross over to 80 Hz. I am testing now.

Why would you set it at 80hz if your receiver determined 120hz? As henrich3 pointed out 140hz is probably better than 120hz, not going down.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
cel4145: Because another comment here was to start 10 Hz above speaker minimum, and slowly going up. I did at the end went back upto 120 Hz in crossver setting in Yamha, no speker cables to sub only LFE, sub byspass low to max 150 Hz. For some strange reason that is not as good as when I ran speaker throuth sub togather with LFE, and set sub lopass at 95 Hz, and crossover in yamaha at 120 Hz. I am completely confused. For time being leaving speakeras cable out of sub, as you recommend. However I would like to understand why the other option was better sounding although messy. Guess it was the power from sub to speker?
 

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If your receiver said 120hz, that's typically the lowest you should go because your receiver is actually measuring the in-room response of your speakers.


The sub doesn't send any extra power to the speakers. And did you rerun YPAO when using the speaker/sub combo speaker level input/outputs? YPAO would have configured it's EQ for the speaker/sub separate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I did run YPAO again after removing speakers cable out of sub. I am not sure if YPAO adjusts EQ? My model is rx - a730. low end yamaha aventage. I will check that tonight. Now at movies Noah.
 
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