[FuriousFred]

Hi,


I have a pair of S-520s, and they sound great! Problem is, some tracks I hear a little popping sound, its kinda random when it happens. I think I might have set the crossover too low but I"m not sure. The S-520s have a rated low of 55Hz, so I set the crossover to 60Hz from my receiver, but I'm thinking its too close? I googled "S-520 and 80Hz" and found some people that set it there, but none so far at 60Hz.


Is it bad to set the crossover so close to the speaker's lowest point? If thats the case I will set it higher and get subwoofer ASAP!


Fred

 

[NicksHitachi]

Popping from a speaker is always bad. Looking at the response graph does have the speaker dropping off just before it gets to 60Hz, which is where it effectively runs out of steam.

http://www.stereophile.com/standloud...er/index3.html


I would set the crossover to the 80 setting. Setting the crossover so close probably leaves a soft spot in your dynamic range. Your sub should do a much better job of reproducing everything below 80Hz.


Set it to 80 and try it, if the popping goes away, your probably doing those Ushers a favor.

 

[FuriousFred]

Thanks!


I will get a PB10-NSD as soon as speakerly possible!


Fred

 

[NicksHitachi]



Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriousFred /forum/post/15503769


Thanks!


I will get a PB10-NSD as soon as speakerly possible!


Fred

Friendly advice, spend the extra 170 and get the PB12-NSD. You get a LOT for that 170. Probably the best 170 you'll ever spend.

 

[FuriousFred]

Well... my room is 10x10x10, so I'm not sure the extra power is needed. XD


Fred

 

[blued888]



Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriousFred /forum/post/15504930


Well... my room is 10x10x10, so I'm not sure the extra power is needed. XD


Fred

It will at least be good to know you have LOTS of headroom for your little room.

 

[craig john]



Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriousFred /forum/post/15504930


Well... my room is 10x10x10, so I'm not sure the extra power is needed. XD


Fred

A perfect cube? That will be a sonic nightmare with a powerful sub. 113 Hz, (which is the frequency that has a 10' wavelength), will have massive peaks and nulls all over the room, as will 56.5 Hz, (1/2 wavelength) and 226 Hz, (2x wavelength.) (Edit: Add the response peak of your speakers at ~55 Hz and that frequency range, 55 - 56.5 Hz, will be very exaggerated in your room. If you get a sub, a higher crossover will reduce the port output and reduce that resonance somewhat.)


BTW, it sounds like you don't have a sub now. Why are you using a crossover without a sub? There is nothing to cross over to. If you don't have a sub, you certainly don't want to raise the crossover.


Craig

 

[Robert Cook]



Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/15506003


BTW, it sounds like you don't have a sub now. Why are you using a crossover without a sub? There is nothing to cross over to. If you don't have a sub, you certainly don't want to raise the crossover.

While this is certainly a valid point, using a higher crossover frequency without a sub would at least allow the OP to listen at a higher volume without bottoming out the speakers (which this particular speaker model has a tendency to do). If the speakers were fed a full-range signal with no crossover to act as a high-pass filter, then the volume would have to be turned down a lot in order to prevent damage.

 

[Robert Cook]



Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriousFred /forum/post/15503087


Is it bad to set the crossover so close to the speaker's lowest point?

It depends on the speaker, as some sealed (acoustic suspension) speakers can be run quite close to their low-frequency -3 dB point while others cannot, but if your speakers are ported (as these are), then yes it's generally a bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriousFred /forum/post/15503087


If thats the case I will set it higher and get subwoofer ASAP!

Set the crossover to at least 80 Hz or even a bit higher if you like to listen at relatively high volumes. Getting a sub is not strictly necessary, but if you want to hear any bass at all, it would be well worth the purchase.

 

[FuriousFred]

Well its not exactly a perfect cube, might be 9" by 10" by 9" but I get your meaning. Its actually my computer room, and I'm setting them up for my computer for music/PC gaming. I went out shopping for some computer speakers but didn't really feel impressed (especially the Bose system felt like the Logitechs that were near it). Then I saw an ad for a 2nd-hand S-520s on canuckaudiomart and it blew me away!


I just need a sub to fill in that missing frequency range!

 

[Neoguri]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook /forum/post/15507611


While this is certainly a valid point, using a higher crossover frequency without a sub would at least allow the OP to listen at a higher volume without bottoming out the speakers (which this particular speaker model has a tendency to do). If the speakers were fed a full-range signal with no crossover to act as a high-pass filter, then the volume would have to be turned down a lot in order to prevent damage.

Would this mean telling the receiver that you do have subwoofer when in fact you dont? I'm running a 5.0 setup with 5 bookshelves and no sub. I have my receiver set to no subwoofer which forces me to run my L and R as Large. I am running my center and surrounds to small crossed at 80Hz. I do get popping from time to time but I'm unsure if it's due to this or a source problem(cable box). Is it possible for me to damage my speakers if cranking the volume too high running them as large?

 

[sivadselim]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15511311


Would this mean telling the receiver that you do have subwoofer when in fact you dont? I'm running a 5.0 setup with 5 bookshelves and no sub. I have my receiver set to no subwoofer which forces me to run my L and R as Large. I am running my center and surrounds to small crossed at 80Hz. I do get popping from time to time but I'm unsure if it's due to this or a source problem(cable box). Is it possible for me to damage my speakers if cranking the volume too high running them as large?

Yes, apparently the OP is "fooling" his receiver into thinking he has a sub. I do not think that this is how I would ever run things if I had no sub. Personally, I think this is silly, but there ARE several here who would advocate doing this. I just do not think it is necessary. Expecting reference level volume from a movie soundtrack from bookshelf speakers with no subwoofer is a ridiculous expectation. Although you can certainly use them this way, the bass management settings and capabilities of AVRs were not really intended to perform this particular deceptive function. I have never seen the instruction manual for any AVR suggest this. Invariably, without regard to the speakers being used, the manuals say that if you do not have a subwoofer, set the receiver up as such.


With your current setup, you are rerouting the LFE channel as well as the low frequency info from the channels set to SMALL to your fronts. Within reason, this, alone, should not damage your speakers. But any speaker can be damaged if pushed too hard, no matter the content that it is being asked to reproduce.


If you fool the receiver into thinking you have a sub when you do not, you will drop your LFE channel completely and you will, of course, only reproduce the info in the SMALL main channels that is above your receiver's crossover setting. If you plan to do this, you may want to lower your crossover setting so that you still get some protective benefit but do not lose so much of the LF info in the main channels. With the LFE channel dropped, the front speakers should be OK with a lower crossover setting. You could even still leave your fronts set to LARGE, but now, without the burden of the LFE channel.

 

[Robert Cook]



Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriousFred /forum/post/15510609


I went out shopping for some computer speakers but didn't really feel impressed (especially the Bose system felt like the Logitechs that were near it). Then I saw an ad for a 2nd-hand S-520s on canuckaudiomart and it blew me away!

The S-520 is a great-sounding, well-built speaker but it is tuned a bit low for the size and excursion capabilities of its woofer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriousFred /forum/post/15510609


I just need a sub to fill in that missing frequency range!

The PB10-NSD should be more than enough sub for such a small space, although it's always good to think ahead in case it will ever be moved to a significantly larger one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15511311


Would this mean telling the receiver that you do have subwoofer when in fact you dont?

Yes, you must lie to the receiver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15511311


I'm running a 5.0 setup with 5 bookshelves and no sub. I have my receiver set to no subwoofer which forces me to run my L and R as Large. I am running my center and surrounds to small crossed at 80Hz.

What speakers are these (makes and models)? If they're all basically the same size, then you could try running them all as Large so that the front left & right speakers aren't handling more bass than they have to (this would spread the burden around more evenly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15511311


I do get popping from time to time but I'm unsure if it's due to this or a source problem(cable box).

Yikes! Does this popping occur only during loud sounds with lots of bass or more randomly? In which speakers does it occur? Does it occur while playing DVDs or other sources? A popping sound could indicate quite a few potential problems in a source, the receiver, or the speakers. Or it could just be somebody turning on an appliance or a fluorescent light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15511311


Is it possible for me to damage my speakers if cranking the volume too high running them as large?

Yes, although it depends on the speakers and your receiver. It's always possible to damage speakers, even if you run them as small, as the tweeters and the electronics could get fried, in addition to the woofers pounding themselves against their limiters. If the latter is the problem in your case, then telling the receiver that you have a subwoofer, setting a high-enough crossover frequency, setting all of the speakers to Small, and throwing away the low bass can help protect the speakers from damage. You could experiment with this configuration to see whether the popping noise goes away.

 

[Robert Cook]



Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15511412


Yes, apparently the OP is "fooling" his receiver into thinking he has a sub. I do not think that this is how I would ever run things if I had no sub. Personally, I think this is silly, but there ARE several here who would advocate doing this.

It depends on how well the speakers can handle a full-range signal. Evidently, some bookshelf speakers tend to self-destruct at volumes well below what they could handle if they were crossed-over to a sub. Aside from buying a sub, one could either listen at relatively modest volumes, compress the dynamic range, or crossover to a nonexistent sub and miss out on just the bass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15511412


I just do not think it is necessary. Expecting reference level volume from a movie soundtrack from bookshelf speakers with no subwoofer is a ridiculous expectation.

Speakers like the S-520 can be damaged at well below reference level--just think of this as a way to protect the speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15511412


Although you can certainly use them this way, the bass management settings and capabilities of AVRs were not really intended to perform this particular deceptive function.

It doesn't matter what they were intended to perform, and it's not as though the receiver's feelings would be hurt by deception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15511412


I have never seen the instruction manual for any AVR suggest this. Invariably, without regard to the speakers being used, the manuals say that if you do not have a subwoofer, set the receiver up as such.

Manuals can't account for every situation, which is where experience and understanding of the subject can help. For example, some older receivers may not have a sub pre-out and their manuals may not even make reference to subwoofers at all, but this doesn't mean that one cannot or should not use a subwoofer with their system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15511412


With your current setup, you are rerouting the LFE channel as well as the low frequency info from the channels set to SMALL to your fronts.

Are you sure about the LFE channel? The Dolby Digital specification does not say what receivers and processors have to do with the LFE channel in the absence of a subwoofer. This is a downmix scenario, and typically in downmix scenarios, when there is no physical subwoofer the LFE channel is simply ignored (thrown away). The specification (either that or Dolby's guidelines) does say that the bass information necessary to convey the story and the drama of the story should be placed in the full-range channels. The LFE channel is just for additional bass energy that may overload the full-range channels, and is only necessarily retained when there is a reasonable expectation that the speaker system can reproduce it (i.e. there is a subwoofer). Different receivers may well handle the downmix to 5.0 differently from one another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15511412


Within reason, this, alone, should not damage your speakers.

It wouldn't damage mine, but I'd be more careful with speakers like the S-520.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15511412


If you fool the receiver into thinking you have a sub when you do not, you will drop your LFE channel completely

It's no big loss here--depending on the rerecording mixer, there's not as much content in the LFE channel as people tend to think. Per Dolby's mixing guidelines, nothing essential to the conveyance of the story--including deep bass--should go into the LFE channel because that channel is always subject to being dropped out of the mix entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15511412


and you will, of course, only reproduce the info in the SMALL main channels that is above your receiver's crossover setting.

That's all these small speakers can handle anyway. There's no escaping the fact that a bookshelf speaker-based system is not complete without at least one subwoofer, but until there is a subwoofer, one could at least prevent the speakers from hurting themselves.

 

[Neoguri]

Thank you both for your responses.


I am running Dynaudio Audience 42's and a 42C as my center. I believe they are rated down to 50Hz or so. My receiver is a Marantz SR8001.


I was unaware that running only the fronts as large would redirect bass below the crossover from the other channels into just the fronts. I will try running all of them as large to see if it sounds better.


I'm assuming that none of my speakers can reproduce an LFE signal since they do not go low enough? But does that signal still somehow affect my speakers in some way?


The popping occurs randomly. I can't determine any sort of pattern to it. I have heard at it both low and high volumes from all three front speakers. I don't think I've ever heard it while playing a cd from my ps3 in direct mode at pretty high volumes. Mostly from cable tv and from blurays/dvds.


I guess I can try the fake subwoofer method, but then I'm assuming all of my audyssey settings are gonna be messed up, and I have to run that annoying autosetup again.


The easiest solution seems to be to just bite the bullet and get sub! But I have this problem with buying things I can't really afford...and I've been eyeing those nice Rythmiks. :/ And living in a loft and all, I'm hesitant to buy a sub and not being able to use it to its full potential.

 

[sivadselim]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook /forum/post/15512148


Speakers like the S-520 can be damaged at well below reference level--just think of this as a way to protect the speakers.

The speakers were made to be run as a stereo pair with a full-range signal. I will grant you that CDs do not have an LFE channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook /forum/post/15512148


Manuals can't account for every situation, which is where experience and understanding of the subject can help.

But manuals CAN and DO account for the situation where there is no subwoofer being utilized. And they invariably say to set the receiver up as having NO SUB. This is pretty fundamental, actually. And believe it or not, there ARE people who do not have a subwoofer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook /forum/post/15512148


For example, some older receivers may not have a sub pre-out and their manuals may not even make reference to subwoofers at all, but this doesn't mean that one cannot or should not use a subwoofer with their system.

OK. Point being what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook /forum/post/15512148


Are you sure about the LFE channel? The Dolby Digital specification does not say what receivers and processors have to do with the LFE channel in the absence of a subwoofer. This is a downmix scenario, and typically in downmix scenarios, when there is no physical subwoofer the LFE channel is simply ignored (thrown away). The specification (either that or Dolby's guidelines) does say that the bass information necessary to convey the story and the drama of the story should be placed in the full-range channels. The LFE channel is just for additional bass energy that may overload the full-range channels, and is only necessarily retained when there is a reasonable expectation that the speaker system can reproduce it (i.e. there is a subwoofer). Different receivers may well handle the downmix to 5.0 differently from one another.

Yes, I am sure that the LFE channel is rerouted to the front channels when an AVR is configured as having NO SUB. And, yes, this IS stipulated by the Dolby specs. Again, this is fundamental stuff. And, no, different receivers do not handle it differently. Every AV receiver that I know of reroutes the LFE channel to the front channels when configured as having NO SUB. And I mean EVERY one. I would love to be shown otherwise.


DVD players drop the LFE channel when downmixing 5.1 for 2-channel analog output. This, too, is a Dolby spec and is there specifically to prevent the LFE channel from being sent directly to a TV via its L/R analog inputs for reproduction by the TV's often incompetent amplifier and speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook /forum/post/15512148


It wouldn't damage mine, but I'd be more careful with speakers like the S-520.

A bit of common sense is useful with any speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook /forum/post/15512148


It's no big loss here--depending on the rerecording mixer, there's not as much content in the LFE channel as people tend to think. Per Dolby's mixing guidelines, nothing essential to the conveyance of the story--including deep bass--should go into the LFE channel because that channel is always subject to being dropped out of the mix entirely.

I agree. Most of the effects that are destined for reinforcement by the LFE channel are also mixed in some measure into the main channels to provide some continuity as well as necessary directionality. Occasionally there is info that is encoded uniquely into the LFE channel. But the LFE channel CAN contain info as high as 120Hz, and is almost always used up to at least 80Hz. When configured as having NO SUB, the LFE channel is precisely mixed in the appropriate measure into the L/R channels. Sure, you can deceptively drop the LFE channel is you'd like, but what you are going to then be left with is an anemic soundtrack.


Is dropping the LFE channel not the main reasons one would want to falsely configure their receiver as having NO SUB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook /forum/post/15512148


That's all these small speakers can handle anyway. There's no escaping the fact that a bookshelf speaker-based system is not complete without at least one subwoofer, but until there is a subwoofer, one could at least prevent the speakers from hurting themselves.

Again, these speakers were made to be used as a stereo pair with 2-channel equipment that is not even capable of bass management. They should not simply wilt when faced with a full-range signal. There are millions of people who have simple 2-channel setups incorporating a pair of bookshelf speakers running full-range.


If I were even remotely contemplating deceiving a receiver into thinking I had a subwoofer when I didn't, I would only do it to remove the LFE channel from the front channels. I would run the other 5 speakers as LARGE, no matter their size. Using the AV receiver to also apply a crossover to the speakers should not be necessary.

 

[sivadselim]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15512408


I was unaware that running only the fronts as large would redirect bass below the crossover from the other channels into just the fronts.

Where else would the low-end information from SMALL channels that is below the crossover setting be sent if there is no subwoofer? When a processor is configured as having no subwoofer, the front channels default to LARGE. And both the LFE channel and any rerouted bass from those channels set to SMALL is sent to the front channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15512408


I'm assuming that none of my speakers can reproduce an LFE signal since they do not go low enough? But does that signal still somehow affect my speakers in some way?

Your speakers can reproduce that portion of the LFE channel that they are capable of reproducing. The LFE channel can contain info as high as 120Hz and very commonly contains info as high as 80Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15512408


I guess I can try the fake subwoofer method, but then I'm assuming all of my audyssey settings are gonna be messed up, and I have to run that annoying autosetup again.

Very good point and thanks for bringing that up. Currently, when you run Audyssey, it detects no subwoofer and it sets your speakers accordingly and appropriately. What it will, of course, do, at the very least, is set your front speakers to run full-range (LARGE). And your processor will then appropriately reroute the LFE channel, in the correct measure, to the LARGE front channels. If you have configured your receiver as having a sub when you do not, I doubt that Audyssey will even continue when it cannot detect your imaginary subwoofer. It is going to report an error. As it should.


When you do not have full-range speakers and/or a subwoofer you will already hear less of the soundtrack than was intended but, when properly configured, your receiver and speakers will still attempt to recreate as much of it as possible. If you fake a receiver into thinking you have a sub, and you completely drop your LFE channel, you will hear even less of that intended soundtrack.

 

[Robert Cook]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15512408


I am running Dynaudio Audience 42's and a 42C as my center. I believe they are rated down to 50Hz or so. My receiver is a Marantz SR8001.

This speaker is somewhat small but has a pretty robust woofer, from what I understand. There's no reason to believe that it can't handle a full-range signal at a reasonable volume, although it wouldn't hurt to try playing the speakers with their port plugs inserted to find out whether that makes a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15512408


I was unaware that running only the fronts as large would redirect bass below the crossover from the other channels into just the fronts. I will try running all of them as large to see if it sounds better.

If you tell your receiver that there is no subwoofer, then that's where the bass from the Small speakers will go. Setting them all to Large will increase the total bass capability of your system, as even the surround channels occasionally contain strong bass. I've experimented with running my speakers (Ascend CBM-170 SEs) as a 5.0 system, all set to Large, and there were scenes in a couple of movies where enough bass came out of the surrounds to rattle my windows!

I wouldn't have thought these speakers could do that, but that's what happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15512408


I'm assuming that none of my speakers can reproduce an LFE signal since they do not go low enough? But does that signal still somehow affect my speakers in some way?

First, let's be clear on our terminology. The LFE (or ".1") channel is a specific audio channel that contains whatever excess bass mixers choose to put there. The entire LFE channel of a soundtrack is ignored (thrown away) when downmixing for 2.0 (your receiver is told that there is no subwoofer), and I assume that this is the case for 5.0 as well, although I'm not sure whether every receiver does the same thing. Most likely none of the LFE channel's content will ever reach your speakers, no matter how you set up the receiver--the LFE channel, which is boosted by 10 dB before amplification, only ever goes to the subwoofer or else it's discarded.


As for LFE--Low Frequency Effects--in general, this can be present in any audio channel, and your speakers should be able to reproduce some portion of it, but not all of it, and not at the expected loudness. For that, you'd need a subwoofer, of course. As for effects it could have on your speakers, it depends on how hard your speakers try to reproduce really low frequencies. In general, the harder your speakers work, especially for bass, the more distortion they will produce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15512408


The popping occurs randomly. I can't determine any sort of pattern to it. I have heard at it both low and high volumes from all three front speakers. I don't think I've ever heard it while playing a cd from my ps3 in direct mode at pretty high volumes. Mostly from cable tv and from blurays/dvds.

That pretty much rules out all but the center speaker and its corresponding amplifier, I think. When you get a chance, change the center speaker setting in your receiver to Off or None, and watch BDs, DVDs, and cable TV like you normally would. As I implied earlier, I doubt that what you're hearing is the speakers bottoming out, so your issue is different from that of the OP (the S-520 is notorious for bottoming out but the Audience 42 should be fine I believe).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15512408


I guess I can try the fake subwoofer method, but then I'm assuming all of my audyssey settings are gonna be messed up, and I have to run that annoying autosetup again.

Oh...right, I keep forgetting about that stuff (I do it all manually with parametric EQs). Tell you what, try turning off your center speaker before you do anything else. If the popping stops, then we'll know that it's either your center speaker or its amplifier inside your receiver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15512408


The easiest solution seems to be to just bite the bullet and get sub!

That would solve your lack-of-bass problem, but it would probably not solve your popping problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15512408


But I have this problem with buying things I can't really afford...

Those Audience 42s aren't exactly chump-change, but without a sub you're not getting the most out of having such nice bookshelf speakers. I'm not trying to tempt you--I would have recommended less expensive speakers and a sub if you couldn't afford more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoguri /forum/post/15512408


and I've been eyeing those nice Rythmiks. :/ And living in a loft and all, I'm hesitant to buy a sub and not being able to use it to its full potential.

A Rythmik sub would go nicely with these speakers, but maybe in your situation you don't need it. I could be wrong, but I don't think that you're bottoming out your speakers. Try what I suggested earlier (don't worry about Audyssey for now) and let me know what happens.

 

[sivadselim]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook /forum/post/15513400


The entire LFE channel of a soundtrack is ignored (thrown away) when downmixing for 2.0 (your receiver is told that there is no subwoofer), and I assume that this is the case for 5.0 as well, although I'm not sure whether every receiver does the same thing. Most likely none of the LFE channel's content will ever reach your speakers, no matter how you set up the receiver--the LFE channel, which is boosted by 10 dB before amplification, only ever goes to the subwoofer or else it's discarded.

Jeez, Louise.

AV receivers do not ever drop the LFE channel whether configured for 5.0, 4.0, 3.0 or 2.0 playback. When configured as having no subwoofer AV receivers will always reroute the LFE channel to the LARGE front channels. Always.


And ALL of the LFE channel's content will reach the front speakers when the receiver is configured as having no subwoofer. All of it. Whether the speakers can reproduce it or not is something entirely different. But the LFE channel can contain occasional info as high as 120Hz and very commonly contains very frequent info as high as 80Hz. The Audience 42s will reproduce considerable LFE info when connected as the front channel speakers to an AV receiver that is configured as having no subwoofer. Plenty of it.

 

[Robert Cook]



Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


The speakers were made to be run as a stereo pair with a full-range signal.

I know, but that doesn't change the fact that people keep reporting that these speakers tend to bottom out a lot, especially when playing movies and crossed-over too low, of course. Just because something is designed for a certain purpose does not mean that it's perfect. I think that these speakers were designed with too little margin for their low-frequency extension--this is based on empirical evidence rather than intentions. In my opinion, they should always be used with a subwoofer, or at the very least have low frequencies filtered out (like with a subwoofer crossover)--this is based on the woofers bottoming out instead of whatever the manual might say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


I will grant you that CDs do not have an LFE channel.

Never mind the LFE channel--movies tend to have a lot more and a lot deeper bass than audio CDs, even in the main full-range channels. This makes the problem worse with movies, but does not change the fact that the S-520, in the experience of its owners, is particularly vulnerable to bottoming out when there is significant bass content. Even a CD could do some damage if it had strong enough bass content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


But manuals CAN and DO account for the situation where there is no subwoofer being utilized. And they invariably say to set the receiver up as having NO SUB. This is pretty fundamental, actually.

Try thinking "outside the box" (or manual or whatever).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


And believe it or not, there ARE people who do not have a subwoofer.

I know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


Yes, I am sure that the LFE channel is rerouted to the front channels when an AVR is configured as having NO SUB. And, yes, this IS stipulated by the Dolby specs. Again, this is fundamental stuff. And, no, different receivers do not handle it differently. Every AV receiver that I know of reroutes the LFE channel to the front channels when configured as having NO SUB. And I mean EVERY one. I would love to be shown otherwise.

I've looked before and couldn't find a reference to a requirement for the LFE to be downmixed, but I'll look again. It seems kind of silly to take the trouble to preserve nonessential material for systems that most likely couldn't reproduce it anyway, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


DVD players drop the LFE channel when downmixing 5.1 for 2-channel analog output. This, too, is a Dolby spec and is there specifically to prevent the LFE channel from being sent directly to a TV via its L/R analog inputs for reproduction by the TV's often incompetent amplifier and speakers.

And how many home theater or cinema speakers are "competent" enough to reproduce the LFE channel at +10 dB as specified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


A bit of common sense is useful with any speakers.

True, but some speakers are a lot more vulnerable to full-range signals than others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


But the LFE channel CAN contain info as high as 120Hz, and is almost always used up to at least 80Hz.

I believe that the current industry practice is to allow no content above 80 Hz, although the LFE channel does go to 120 Hz as you say, at least in Dolby Digital and the home version of DTS. In the newer lossless codecs and uncompressed PCM, I believe that the LFE channel is full-range (probably for ease of implementation), although limited to content below 80 Hz in practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


When configured as having NO SUB, the LFE channel is precisely mixed in the appropriate measure into the L/R channels.

That would be +7 dB into each channel if this is true. If there are other speakers set to Large, are they ignored?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


Sure, you can deceptively drop the LFE channel is you'd like, but what you are going to then be left with is an anemic soundtrack.

I doubt it, as there seems to be plenty of bass content in the main channels of movies I've examined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


Is dropping the LFE channel not the main reasons one would want to falsely configure their receiver as having NO SUB?

Weren't we talking about falsely configuring a receiver as having a sub?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


Again, these speakers were made to be used as a stereo pair with 2-channel equipment that is not even capable of bass management. They should not simply wilt when faced with a full-range signal. There are millions of people who have simple 2-channel setups incorporating a pair of bookshelf speakers running full-range.

That's the common case, but based on experience, the S-520 is highly prone to bottoming out and should only be used with a sub (or otherwise high-pass filtered) in this age of home theater. Most other speakers are pretty hard to bottom out (I've run mine full-range at full volume with no issues), but evidently these aren't, and that's why the OP asked for help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15513005


If I were even remotely contemplating deceiving a receiver into thinking I had a subwoofer when I didn't, I would only do it to remove the LFE channel from the front channels. I would run the other 5 speakers as LARGE, no matter their size. Using the AV receiver to also apply a crossover to the speakers should not be necessary.

It shouldn't be necessary, but in the specific case of the S-520, I think it is, and I think that Usher should address this design flaw in future revisions of this speaker.