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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is a response I wrote to help Lee who had sent me a PM. I've commented recently on a couple of HD1000U threads about keystone correction, shelf mounting, and the offset trying to let people know IT'S GOING TO BE OK. The projector will still turn on and throw a WONDERFUL image. I wanted to post our conversation so that it might help other fence sitters who have been scared to death by the KEYSTONE SCARE GUYS and the VERTICAL OFFSET/MUST CEILING MOUNT GUYS. Now of course I jest and these people are right that keystone correcting and shelf mounting is not ideal, but contrary to what they might believe, it still looks
. Here's our conversation.


Originally Question by smile:


Will you help me; some of your posts speak to my question. My ceiling is 9', eyes 12' from screen and pj will be ~14.5' from the screen. How do I determine if this HD1000U (or HD70) will work for me on a shelf, if that shelf can be 8'+ high? In other words, how do I est. picture placement; is there a site or formula to work w/? Thanks for the direction, for I have been told I am limited to LCD Z5 or Pan1000. Thank you.


Lee


My Response:


The reason people are telling you to go with the LCD units is because they have lens shift (the ability to move the image up and down by physically moving the lens). This avoids digital keystone correction. The HD70 and HD1000U both have fixed lenses that have a built in offset. This sets up these projector to be ceiling mounted because with ceiling mounting the screen is usually lower than the projectors lense so these manufacturers have built in about a 16" offset to always throw the image about 16" below the center of the lens (if upside down. Right side up the image will be about 16" above the lens.) I've simplified all of this but there are posts about how to accurately calculate how many inches the image will be above/below the centerline of the lense based on where you're placing the projector. You can search AVS for those explanations or I also believe mitsubishi has a calculater you can plug you're numbers into and find out.


Now as to your shelf question. If you are going to mount a shelf that high you're also going to need to then mount the projector upside down on the bottom of the shelf. Remember my basic estimate. Right side up the image is going to be higher than than the center line of the lens so at 8' you're going to have to tilt the projector way down to get it to hit your screen. If you mount it underneath then you'll probably only need to tilt it up a little bit to hit your screen. But undermounting a projector to a shelf can be a bit of work.


If you want to do a shelf assuming you're going to be installing one and not just using one that happens to be 8' high on your wall, I'd recommend doing what I have. With the offset of these projectors basically the lower your shelf the less keystoning you'll have to use. Now of course you'll need it high enough that it's not shining on people's heads or so low you'll smash your head against it if you get up from the couch. So here's my set up.


I have a very limited amount of room since I live in an apartment. My main couch is against the back wall which is about 11 feet from the screen. I have a shelf mounted directly above that probably 4 feet up and I have 8ft ceilings. The 4 ft mark is high enough that you won't bump you're head or feel like you're sitting under a roof or something. I then also have the top of my screen about 8" from the ceiling. This is also important because with a shelf mount again the higher you're screen will also allow you to tilt less since the projector is going to be throwing the image higher than where it's placed. Again lower shelf and higher screen, less tiliting, and less digital keystone correction. But as you can see, my set-up still has the screen a decent amount down from the ceiling and a 4 ft shelf is a pretty normal height, it's certainly not low. And my set-up works WONDERFULLY. A lot of people scare others away by talking about the offset/mounting issues and digital keystone correction. I have to tilt my projector down (quite a fair amount) and I'm using a good amount of digital keystone correction to square the image. It looks fine and works well. I have concrete ceilings in my building so I wasn't looking forward to ceiling mounting this projector. I was worried (because I had listened to the keystone scare people) but once I had the unit and looked at it, it's fine. Shelf mounting is a lot easier to set-up and is a lot easier to adjust if the projector isn't perfectly centered - just slide the unit over on the shelf a bit. With a ceiling mount if you missed it, you missed it. You can tilt and turn and all of that but the image won't be perfectly square.


I hope all of this helps. It might all sound a bit confusing but it's really not. Once you get the projector and get it set-up it will all make sense. You can then tweak your set-up to get it better because you'll be able to actually SEE what you need to do. But creating the PERFECT set-up isn't necessary. We all try to and that's what makes it complicated, but in the end you'll be able to make it work. I'm really thrilled with projectors ever since I got into it a few years ago. I'll never go back and the HD1000 is SILLY GOOD at such an amazing price. My current set-up throws an 85" diagonal image and it looks better than my buddy's new 42" Samsung plasma
and it's twice as big
Oh, and it cost a little less including my shelf, screen, and black frame I made for my screen. I think my buddy is
 

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Wow, excellent post and great read!


Man, now u got me thinking about switching back to the 100u, from the opt 7100 or benq 7700.


Damn damn... Very informative thanks for posting this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastiff34 /forum/post/0


Wow, excellent post and great read!


Man, now u got me thinking about switching back to the 100u, from the opt 7100 or benq 7700.


Damn damn... Very informative thanks for posting this.


Sorry to make your choice harder. I had read all of the negatives but still gave the HD1000U a shot. Now being able to see it for myself I don't think the offset or the keystone correction should really be the deciding factor whether or not to get the HD1000U. Get a Z5 or the AX100 because you like the image better not just because you think avoiding keystone correction is going to make anything better.


I'd say the real reason not to get the HD1000U and go up for an LCD is the old DLP vs. LCD war. DLP looks a bit different and feels a bit different than LCD. Some people just won't like DLP. Generally though if DLP doesn't bother you (RBE, eye strain, etc.) you'll probably prefer it to LCD because of black levels. I've had both and can see what people are talking about when they mention eye strain and/or RBE with DLP, but LCD has it's own issues and I've generally preferred the richness, black levels, and sharp filmlike feel of DLP. I really didn't like DLP with my first DLP projector, but two months later and I was fine. It's almost like there's a little bit of adjustment time with DLP.


Finally, and come on this is huge, PRICE. I'm sorry but I'm a cheap ass. We can talk about all the technology and everything but I'm the type of guy that will save $50 when I can. There's no way I could seriously pay double for a projector with almost the same brightness, and EXACTLY THE SAME RESOLUTION. If 1080P was double the price I might have something to think about. Otherwise I'm getting the value. Bottom line, if you like DLP you're going to be pretty happy with the HD1000U. You'll figure out how to get it set-up. If you're unsure then buy from an online retailer that let's you try the projector for 4 hours with the ability to send it back for a full refund if you don't like it. At below $900 the HD1000U is worth a series look and I've heard costco has the HD70 with a Greywolf II screen bundled as a combo that is also an outstanding value. Best of luck.


And just remember - Front projection kicks ass!! No matter what projector you have.
 

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Does this have Vertical Stretch? What Projectors that cost less than AX100 have Vertical stretch and enough lumens for my 138" wide High Power 2:35.1 screen? I can get a gain of little over 2 if I mount the projector in line with the top part of the screen at around 20' foot from screen.
 

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Nathan - good points you make here.


I'll add some keystoning comments of my own...


I was recently in a class, and they had a small DLP projector - if I had to guess it was probably 1024x768.


The image was square and the text was clear, even the tiny copy right text at the bottom.


When I walked up to see the instructor, I was surprised to see the keystoning (you can tell on the edges) so all in all it seems that the scaling systems out today do a good job.


If you are going to watch primarily movies and TV, and almost all of that is going to get rescaled from 480 to 720, then I agree 100% with Nathan's comments about keystone - not ideal, but honestly, not half bad either.


On the other hand, if you're going to hook it up to a PC or a hi-def game console like the PS3 or the Xbox 360 - the effects of keystone on the picture quality will be more noticable.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by basementjack2 /forum/post/0


If you are going to watch primarily movies and TV, and almost all of that is going to get rescaled from 480 to 720, then I agree 100% with Nathan's comments about keystone - not ideal, but honestly, not half bad either.

What about for a 1080i tv source? Will picture degradation be noticeable in this case? I'm looking at needing to move the image up 12-15" to get my screen where I'd like. What degree of keystoning would this require (as from my understanding the higher degree of keystoning you need to do the worse the degradation will be)?
 

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I think you'll be ok with TV be it 1080i or otherwise.


It really depends on the source - if theres a lot of small text or thin lines, you'll notice keystoning.


If it's a typical movie or tv show you probably won't


I think the rule of thumb is - if it's going to be scaled anyway, and that wouldn't bother you

then keystoning should not either...

for example, you're going to scale 1080i down to 720 anyway, so every pixel is already scaled.

on the other hand, if you connected a PC - hands down you would not want any scaling.


There are other projectors available that you could get that don't require keystone adjustments, they just cost more. If you're building a budget setup and understand the tradeoffs, I think it's a good trade off.


If you were going to buy a $2000 projector, and still used keystone, we'd all slap you up side the head...
 

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I'm not one of the Keystone Mafia, but ...


It is important the remember that while the picture quality may be acceptable to you when using keystoning, keystoning is digitally distorting the image. It is compressing the top and stretching the bottom of each pixel in order to correct the geometry. I'm sure some do it better than others, but keystoning uses software to purposely distort the native picture quality.


The whole premise of this thread is that when you have no other option, you may find you can live with the quality of a keystoned image. However, I think it should also be mentioned that the native image of an inferior pj will typically look better than the keystoned image of a superior pj. So you have to ask yourself why. Why wouldn't you just purchase a pj that fits your parameters without needing keystoning? It still seem like putting a square peg into a round hole to me. You explained well how to do it, but not why you would do it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvos /forum/post/0


I'm not one of the Keystone Mafia, but ...


It is important the remember that while the picture quality may be acceptable to you when using keystoning, keystoning is digitally distorting the image. It is compressing the top and stretching the bottom of each pixel in order to correct the geometry. I'm sure some do it better than others, but keystoning uses software to purposely distort the native picture quality.


The whole premise of this thread is that when you have no other option, you may find you can live with the quality of a keystoned image. However, I think it should also be mentioned that the native image of an inferior pj will typically look better than the keystoned image of a superior pj. So you have to ask yourself why. Why wouldn't you just purchase a pj that fits your parameters without needing keystoning? It still seem like putting a square peg into a round hole to me. You explained well how to do it, but not why you would do it.


I think the reason would be is the keystoned image for 900 dollars good enough for you or do you want to spend twice the price to get something you don't need to keystone.


What we need is a side by side comparison one keystoned one not and see how much the image suffers. Then people can decide if it's worth the extra money.
 

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yeah, but lets correct the math


Mits projector $900

Shelf mount upside down (no harm in laying it on its back no need for a fancy mount)


Sanyo Z5 $1300 after rebate

Shelf mount (right side up) OR cieling mount

brackets from wallmart + Shelf: $10


Epson Tw700 $1535

Shelf mount (right side up) or cieling mount.


So the difference between the Mist and the Z5 is $400 - is that worth it? maybe maybe not - nathan said he'd save $50 if he could so for him, the $900 projector is worth it.


in my room, I have a window in the back and my old projector sat on a shelf behind it. I have a double drywall ceiling with a 1/2 in gap between layers for sound. so in my case, I've got a lot of incentive to find something that I don't need to mount in the room - and even still I was tempted by the HD1000U. in the end, the fuss wasnt worth saving some money.
 

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Don't forget that you don't necessarily have to use the keystone at all. I have the HD1000U and I can easily aim it up or down at least 10 inches with no adjustments and no discernible keystoning of the picture. I read in another thread that 10 inches of offset means a total of 1/2 inch difference in width between the top and bottom of the screen, and thats not even per side, its total! So if you're within a foot of being able to use the HD1000U, then don't worry about it one bit.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by basementjack2 /forum/post/0


If you were going to buy a $2000 projector, and still used keystone, we'd all slap you up side the head...

Well, I'll be sure to save you the 1500 mile trip from Illinois to Alberta Canada then!
I believe I have my choices narrowed down to (in ascending order of price) the HD1000U, the PLV-Z5, the PT-AX100, and the IN76. The Mitsubishi would be the only one I would have to use keystone with given my setup. Don't have a dedicated room, with some light issues so I am not certain the Z5 will work well for me either as it is the least bright of the bunch.


This will be my first projector, and I am thinking the "wow" factor will be pretty good for me no matter what I go with. It will probably be in use for a relatively short period of time (
 

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I agree the Mits is pretty attractive at that price.. (How much are they up there in CAD?)


if thats what you want, then go for it!


I understand your concerns for the Sanyo - low brightness and a high number of compalints on this forum about them refusing warranty support made me decide not to give them a shot.


I would have picked the panasonic, but a friend had one and said it always looked blurry. Projectorreview.com had a close up and I see what he means - I could not live with that.


Right around that time, I learned of the Epson Tw700. also known as the pro Cinema 810.

Theres like a 30 page thread on this projector - and most everyone who's gotten one seems to like it.

they say the sharpness is between the blurry panasonic, and the sanyo, which some worry about screendoor.


Then I found this review:
http://www.homecinemacentral.com.au/...700_review.htm


The brighness of the 1600 rated lumen epson measured out at 2300+Lumens!

so this projector is every bit as bright as the panasonic.


projectorreviews.com didn't review the new epson, but the reviews for the mitsubishi and the panasonic give you some insight into daytime/lights on viewing with any projector -the extra brightness makes a difference!


one of the Joes' on the forum lives in canada and just got a TW700 from Hong kong for around $2000CAD inclusive of all duties, GST/PST and shipping.


Again, I realize the import thing isn't for everyone, and If you can make the mitsubishi work, I think that

A) you'll be quite happy with it.

B) you'll minimize how much you loose on it when you go to sell it.


- Jack
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomplebe /forum/post/0


Don't forget that you don't necessarily have to use the keystone at all. I have the HD1000U and I can easily aim it up or down at least 10 inches with no adjustments and no discernible keystoning of the picture. I read in another thread that 10 inches of offset means a total of 1/2 inch difference in width between the top and bottom of the screen, and thats not even per side, its total! So if you're within a foot of being able to use the HD1000U, then don't worry about it one bit.

I'd like to echo this as well. I have my image adjusted several inches up with just a slight tilt to my HD1000 and I could get away with no keystone correction at all. The top of my image is less than a quarter inch bigger after at least 6 inches of vertical adjustment. This is covered by my screen border. My keystone is currently set at -1 in one direction to fix a very slight side to side distortion ( the bottom of my image is slightly off without it) and I see no image degradation on video or PC sources.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by basementjack2 /forum/post/0


I agree the Mits is pretty attractive at that price.. (How much are they up there in CAD?)


if thats what you want, then go for it!


I understand your concerns for the Sanyo - low brightness and a high number of compalints on this forum about them refusing warranty support made me decide not to give them a shot.


I would have picked the panasonic, but a friend had one and said it always looked blurry. Projectorreview.com had a close up and I see what he means - I could not live with that.


Right around that time, I learned of the Epson Tw700. also known as the pro Cinema 810.

Theres like a 30 page thread on this projector - and most everyone who's gotten one seems to like it.

they say the sharpness is between the blurry panasonic, and the sanyo, which some worry about screendoor.


Then I found this review:
http://www.homecinemacentral.com.au/...700_review.htm


The brighness of the 1600 rated lumen epson measured out at 2300+Lumens!

so this projector is every bit as bright as the panasonic.


projectorreviews.com didn't review the new epson, but the reviews for the mitsubishi and the panasonic give you some insight into daytime/lights on viewing with any projector -the extra brightness makes a difference!


one of the Joes' on the forum lives in canada and just got a TW700 from Hong kong for around $2000CAD inclusive of all duties, GST/PST and shipping.


Again, I realize the import thing isn't for everyone, and If you can make the mitsubishi work, I think that

A) you'll be quite happy with it.

B) you'll minimize how much you loose on it when you go to sell it.


- Jack

The Mits. is selling for $1400CAD MSRP, and not a whole bunch less than that street. Not to mention it is none too easy to find here period. I could likely do better bringing it in from the US, and paying a higher shipping charge and the exchange.


As for the Epson, I have not found much info on pricing here, but it does seem to be higher than the Panasonic. On importing from overseas, I am much more leery about this. Anything goes wrong, and you are looking at huge shipping costs to get it in for warranty service


Thanks to phantomplebe and BMaugans for your keystone info as well!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvos /forum/post/0


I'm not one of the Keystone Mafia, but ...


It is important the remember that while the picture quality may be acceptable to you when using keystoning, keystoning is digitally distorting the image. It is compressing the top and stretching the bottom of each pixel in order to correct the geometry. I'm sure some do it better than others, but keystoning uses software to purposely distort the native picture quality.


The whole premise of this thread is that when you have no other option, you may find you can live with the quality of a keystoned image. However, I think it should also be mentioned that the native image of an inferior pj will typically look better than the keystoned image of a superior pj. So you have to ask yourself why. Why wouldn't you just purchase a pj that fits your parameters without needing keystoning? It still seem like putting a square peg into a round hole to me. You explained well how to do it, but not why you would do it.

Your comments are exactly why I started this thread. I of course am aware of this fact that keystoning is as us say "Digitally distoring the image." But so is buying a 720P projector to play 480P DVD material. Scaling technology has improved dramatically over the last then years. Now all of us want or already have good upconverting DVD players that create a better than stock 480P image. The whole point of this thread was to refute quotes like this:


"However, I think it should also be mentioned that the native image of an inferior pj will typically look better than the keystoned image of a superior pj. So you have to ask yourself why."


Having seen this in my home personally I don't think this is an accurate statement. A lesser projector with no keystoning will not outperform a better projector with keystoning. My Z2 with no keystoning got it's ass beat by the mitsubishi HD-1000U practically with the lens cap still on the mitsubishi. I looked at them side by side it's a non issue. I can barely tell any difference in the image with the mitsubishi set to no keystone correction. It's certainly not significant.


The Z5 at $400 more might be a decent option but $400 is not a few bucks more. Like I said, get the Z5 or AX100 because YOU LIKE THE IMAGE BETTER not just because you think no keystoning is going to produce $400 worth of a better image. If you looked at too HD1000U side by side one with no keystoning and one with around 10-15 degrees of keystoning I seriously doubt you can see the difference. I almost didn't upgrade my Z2 because of these concerns and now I AM SO HAPPY I took that chance and gave it a shot. Again many good online retailers will let you try the unit for 4 hours. See for yourself. At the price it is more than worth the look.


Final note.


All of us want to build the ideal set-up and that's what all should strive for. And if you have the extra cash by all means go for something that can fit your set-up, but I have the absolute WORST situation you can have with the HD1000U. A shelf mount at almost the middle of the wall. I have a lot of tilting and I am at -11 on keystoning. It LOOKS REALLY REALLY GOOD. And at least 25% better than the Z2 and I'm being a harsh and accurate critic. No keystoning can't save my Z2 from being beat by a projector that has richer color, smoother image, just as sharp, better blacks, brighter and because of that better contrast.


BTW I have a few screenshots posted on my account. Take a look.
 

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FWIW, I've used keystoning a lot for both presentations and quick HT installs (weekend movie viewing off the dinning table) and it's over-stated as a problem. If you plan to use the PJ for a lot of HTPC data work then it'd be annoying, but I'd love to see someone do a blind keystone/no keystone shootout and I imagine that 4/5 wouldn't even be able to detect keystoning side by side in VIDEO. Huge amounts perhaps. 11 clicks sounds like a lot, but how many clicks are there available? If it's from 100 then no biggie



I own the HD1000u, btw, and I have a tall ceiling so keystoning won't be an issue, but I wouldn't have spent more for an LCD even otherwise.


For those really torn, the AE900u (last year's darling panny) is dirty cheap (closing in on $1k) from B&H.


If I were buying my long-term HT projector in a brand new dedicated theater I might consider the keystoning thing more closely, but most of us are buying the $900 HD1000u to tide us over a couple years until there's a $1k 1080p to take the 'budget king' title from the HD1000u.


I already have 3 people vying to buy my used HD1000u from me when I upgrade, and I haven't even got my hands on my unit yet (the market here in India makes Canada look like a giant frigid close-out sale
... and I can say it, I'm Canadian



Alex
 
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