AVS Forum banner
Cancel
  • Take part in a short activity and share your valuable opinion on new design concepts for AVSForum! >>> Click Here
  • Our native mobile app has a new name: Fora Communities. Learn more.

Sharp 12k MII vs. Panasonic AX100

7501 Views 99 Replies 38 Participants Last post by  bqmeister, 
E
I have been reluctant to post my observations about how the Sharp stacks up to the Panny because I have owned the 500, the 900 and most recently the AX100, I really like Panasonics in general and have a deep appreciation that Panasonic has been at the forefront in bringing outstanding price/performance to the masses. But I have to admit that the Sharp 12K MII is at a different level, its just that simple.


Last year, I would freqently visit my friend who at the time had the 12k MII, needless to say it was an impressive state of the art picture that I felt I would probably never have in my theater due to the cost. In the fall of last year my friend replaced the 12K with Sharp's 1080p model (the 20k). Naturally I asked my buddy what he thought, to paraphrase what he said "the 20k was better but not by much and of the noticeble improvements 1080p resolution was probably the least significant". I never forgot those words. During this time when I would visit my friend I remember I use to come back home fire up my Panny and mentally adjust to what I felt was very good PQ but not state of the art like I would see over my his house.


Fast forward to April 07, I learn on this forum that the 12k MII is available for about the same money that I paid for the AX100. I asked myself if I would rather have a 2007 Honda Accord or Toyota Camy vs a 2006 Benz, Lexus, BMW etc. to me it was a no brainer so I order the 12k. The same day that I am setting up 12k another friend who planned to purchase my 100 comes by to pick it up. He stays for a while looks the 12k showing some Comcast cable material and leaves to go home and play with his new toy (the AX100). About 9 o'clock that same evening to my suprise my friend shows up again, sits down with me to watch some HD DVD's. All the while I am wondering why he isn't home watching his new 100. Ten to fifteen minutes later my friend says he just couldn't get over what he had seen earlier that day and he just had to come back. Then he says to me "I have to get me one of these and would I be willing to take back the 100"


Easter Sunday my wife who can care less about our toys comes down to the basement and literally stops in her tracks says wow about 3 times and says to me "this television is so much better than your other television". Need I say more.


Later that afternoon friends and family are over for Easter and to make a long story short they all are impressed with the picture. My son in law who was very familiar with my Panny set up says "I got to get me one of these", I still think his wife (my daughter) is still a little PO'ed at both of us. My son in law now has the 12k as his 1st PJ (unbelievable) .


Brightness


The biggest suprise with the 12k compared to the 100 is that the 12k seems to muster up a brighter picture with fewer lumens. I would say that they are roughly equivalent in brightness when the Panny is in Vivid Cinema (approx. 1000 lumens) and the 12 K putting out about five to six hundred lumens in high brightness mode with the lamp on economy. The 12k clearly has a wider dynamic range and there is no mode you can put the Panny in that will give you the top end white detail of the 12k. This is not a knock on the Panny I know this to be true with other LCD's like the Z5.


Contrast


The 12k makes it feel like I actually painted my room a darker color, even though the contrast specs are similar the 12k has much deeper and richer blacks. Shadow detail no contest.


Sharpness


Although I never felt that the 100 was lacking, the 12k has a precison and image specificity that is startling. IMO there is a difference between clarity and sharpness and generally speaking I don't think a lot of folks have had an opportunity to see what state of the art optics contributes to the clarity of the overall presentation. I know I didn't before getting the 12k


Color


Again this was another area that suprised the hell out of me simply because I never thought the Panny was doing anything wrong. The 12K seems to extend the color spectrum and gives you shadings and nuance I didn't expect especially with greens. I see much clearer distinctive shading in flesh tones etc. but what blew me away was the rendering and differences i see when looking at different baseball fields or outdoor scenes in movies that have have shots of natural landscapes with grass, trees, and other green stuff.


3D Effect


I have saved the best for last. This is an area where the 100 and I suspect most of the other

Noise Level


The 12k is not a quiet projector. I have the Toshiba XA 1 and I always felt that the AX 100 was actually quieter than the DVD player. The 12K is noticeably louder than both.
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
1 - 20 of 100 Posts
P

Quote:
Originally Posted by erniec /forum/post/0


I have been reluctant to post my observations about how the Sharp stacks up to the Panny because I have owned the 500, the 900 and most recently the AX100, I really like Panasonics in general and have a deep appreciation that Panasonic has been at the forefront in bringing outstanding price/performance to the masses. But I have to admit that the Sharp 12K MII is at a different level, its just that simple.


Last year, I would freqently visit my friend who at the time had the 12k MII, needless to say it was an impressive state of the art picture that I felt I would probably never have in my theater due to the cost. In the fall of last year my friend replaced the 12K with Sharp's 1080p model (the 20k). Naturally I asked my buddy what he thought, to paraphrase he said "the 20k was better but not by much and of the noticeble improvements 1080p resolution was probably the least significant". I never forgot those words. During this time when I would visit my friend I remember I use to come back home fire up my Panny and mentally adjust to what I felt was very good PQ but not state of the art like I would see over my his house.


Fast forward to April 07, I learn on this forum that the 12k MII is available for about the same money that I paid for the AX100. I asked myself if I would rather have a 2007 Honda Accord or Toyota Camy vs a 2006 Benz, Lexus etc. to me it was a no brainer and I order the 12k. The same day the I am setting up 12k another friend who planned to purchase my 100 come by to pick it up. He stays for a while looks the 12k showing some Comcast cable material and leaves to go home and play with his new toy (the 100). About 9 o'clock the same evening to my suprise my friend shows up again, sits down with me to watch some HD DVD's. All the while I am wondering why he isn't home watching his new 100. Ten to fifteen minutes later my friend says he just couldn't get over what he had seen earlier that day so he just had to come back. Then he says to me "I have to get me one of these and would I be willing to take back the 100"


Easter Sunday my wife who can care less about our toys comes down to the basement and literally stops in her tracks says wow about 3 times and says to me "this television is so much better than your other television". Need I say more.


Later that afternoon friends and family are over for Easter and to make a long story short they all are impressed with the picture. My son in law who was very familiar with my Panny set up says "I got to get me one of these", I still think his wife (my daughter) is still a little PO'ed at both of us. My son in law now has the 12k as his 1st PJ (unbelievable) .


Brightness


The biggest suprise with the 12k compared to the 100 is that the 12k seems to muster up a brighter picture with fewer lumens. I would say that they are roughly equivalent in brightness when the Panny is in Vivid Cinema (approx. 1000 lumens) and the 12 K putting out about five to six hundred lumens in high brightness mode with the lamp on economy. The 12k clearly has a wider dynamic range and there is no mode you can put the Panny in that will give you top end white detail of the 12k. This is not a knock on the Panny I know this to be true with other LCD's like the Z5.


Contrast


The 12k makes it feel like I actually painted my room a darker color, even though the contast specs are similar the 12k has much deeper and richer blacks. Shadow detail no contest.


Sharpness


Although I never felt that the 100 was lacking, the 12k has a precison and image specificity that is startling. IMO there is a difference between clarity and sharpness and generally speaking I don't think a lot of folks have had an opportunity to see what state of the art optics contributes to the clarity overall presentation. I know i didn't before getting the 12k


3D Effect


I have saved the best for last. This is an area where the 100 and I suspect most of the other

Noise Level


The 12k is not a quiet projector. I have the Toshiba XA 1 and I always felt that the AX 100 was actually quieter than the DVD player. The 12K is noticeably louder than both.
Click to expand...

Excellent review. I am currently building a dedicated HT room around this PJ. Could you share more about your setup. What type of screen? Distance and size. Light controlled? Distance for viewing, etc. I have only watched it on wall so far, in less than ideal conditions and I agree with you %100. It looked like I had another room in my house on the wall. It was actually kind of freaky.



Thanks for the great review!
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
J

Quote:
Noise Level


The 12k is not a quiet projector. I have the Toshiba XA 1 and I always felt that the AX 100 was actually quieter than the DVD player. The 12K is noticeably louder than both.
Click to expand...

The 12k seems to be a killer projector, but 33dB is a deal killer for many many people. The RS1 is quieter and still too noisy for many.


I wish there was something on the 12k level and price, which was quieter.


I wonder how it compares to the Mitsubish HC3100, which will also kill the AE100 for contrast and 3D effect, and much much quieter than the 12k.
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush /forum/post/0


The 12k seems to be a killer projector, but 33dB is a deal killer for many many people. The RS1 is quieter and still too noisy for many.


I wish there was something on the 12k level and price, which was quieter.


I wonder how it compares to the Mitsubish HC3100, which will also kill the AE100 for contrast and 3D effect, and much much quieter than the 12k.
Click to expand...

I guess the white noise bother me less than the constant yapping that goes on in the the theaters now.
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
E

Quote:
Originally Posted by politicalpunk /forum/post/0


Excellent review. I am currently building a dedicated HT room around this PJ. Could you share more about your setup. What type of screen? Distance and size. Light controlled? Distance for viewing, etc. I have only watched it on wall so far, in less than ideal conditions and I agree with you %100. It looked like I had another room in my house on the wall. It was actually kind of freaky.



Thanks for the great review!
Click to expand...

I have a 96" Carada Brilliant White, the Shap is ceiling mounted about 15 feet from the screen and I sit about 13 feet from the screen. Previous to the brilliant white material I had the Carada high contrast gray material. The 12k handled this very dark gray screen easily but it had to be in high brightness mode. With the BW material I found that I could step the iris back to high contrast mode but most of the time I prefer mid-contrast mode for that extra little pop, with only barely noticeable increase in black level. My room is a dark gray color with mid to dark gray carpet totally light controlled
Reply
Save
Like
L
As a former happy LCD owner who now owns the 12k, I agree with everything that you are saying.


LCD PJs do a nice job but even the best of them don't offer the black levels or three dimensionality of the 12k.


Like you, I was perfectly happy with my LCD projector until I saw what the 12k can do. It really opened my eyes.


Some people just can't accomodate the 12k either because they see rainbows or because of throw distance or because of noise issues. If the 12k works in your setup it throws an amazing picture that really holds its own with the current cream of the crop.


Enjoy your 12k.
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
C

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy /forum/post/0


Some people just can't accomodate the 12k either because they see rainbows or because of throw distance or because of noise issues. If the 12k works in your setup it throws an amazing picture that really holds its own with the current cream of the crop.


Enjoy your 12k.
Click to expand...

Good points. The 12K optics help set it apart.

Alternatively, if you can employ a 'short' throw PJ in your setup, no one should overlook the z-3000/dt-500 option. They are brighter, less noisey, and support HDMI-HDCP. All three do Sharp proud, the 500 being the best value.
Reply
Save
Like
J
We already know DLP throws a better picture than LCD, the question is if the 12k is any better than other DLPs, but this question hasn't been answered by anyone in this thread.
Reply
Save
Like
E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush /forum/post/0


We already know DLP throws a better picture than LCD, the question is if the 12k is any better than other DLPs, but this question hasn't been answered by anyone in this thread.
Click to expand...


I think it has been well established over time where Sharp's position is in the DLP heiarchy. Wasn't that long ago that this model was challenging the $20,000 Marantz for king of the DLP hill. As for other technologies following are comments from Bob Sorel who owns the RS-1 and Ruby and hangs out in the >$3000 forum.


Quote from Bob Sorel


[I know that this is off topic, but from just a couple of hours that I had to set it up and eyeball it (my instruments won't be back for about a week), I was EXTREMELY impressed! Even though I can tell that the 12k will need proper calibration, even right out of the box the colors were far more accurate than what I see from the RS-1 (and better than the Ruby, too!). It was just so nice to have ACCURATE colors again, something I have missed since my InFocus 7210.


And again, I haven't had a chance to play with it, but this thing has a FULL CMS!!! The user has what looks like complete control of saturation, hue, and luminance of all 6 colors (primaries and secondaries), as well as the ability to create custom gamma curves. Being a 1 chip DLP it is sharp as can be and the black level is very competitive to the RS-1. It appears to have much higher ANSI CR than the RS-1, so the intrascene contrast is terrific!


The only problems I could see at first viewing were the 720p resolution and physical noise of the projector. Blown up on a 139" wide screen I can see pixel structure at 1.1X screen width, and the projector is considerably louder than the RS-1, though with its low pitched sound it is not as irritating as the high pitched whine of some color wheels.


My initial impressions are that this has got to be the steal of the century for people who are not susceptible to rainbows (I only see them occasionally, and am never bothered by them), who can use a long throw, and are looking to light up a moderately sized screen. It has great blacks, excellent on/off and ANSI contrast, superb optics, extremely sharp picture, excellent, accurate color rendition, and most pertinent to this thread, a fully functional CMS...


I plan on talking about this projector more once I perform a full calibration on it.]


Quote:
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
J
Well, I just wish there was something that could be done in order to silence the 12k... Bob say it is *considerably* louder than the RS-1, that's crazy !!!
Reply
Save
Like
E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush /forum/post/0


Well, I just wish there was something that could be done in order to silence the 12k... Bob say it is *considerably* louder than the RS-1, that's crazy !!!
Click to expand...

The fact that reports on RS-1's relative loudness is all over the place with some users commenting that theirs are whisper quiet while others complain suggests that maybe the RS-1 is not a good baseline to start with.


I don't think one can argue that, Sharp's are the quietest PJ's you can use epecially if you are going to ceiling mount. I have noticed that if you shelf mount Sharp's they are significantly quieter. My two friends (one has the 20k the other 12k mII) have theirs on shelves on the back wall of the room almost but not quite directly above their viewing positions. As I said the difference in their set-ups and mine as far as loudness is concerned is very noticeable.
Reply
Save
Like
R
Don't lose the perspective that this is a high end DLP machine that sold for well over $5k not too long ago. Thanks to Sharp (and/or the warehouse store who shall remain nameless) for whatever reason to bring the price to this level. I consider this deal pretty close to a miracle. I am sure it affected a lot of other mid/high end 720p DLP sales as well. The real question is, how is the Sharp compared to the Mit 3000, IN76, Benq 8720 or other DLPs?
Reply
Save
Like
H

Quote:
Originally Posted by erniec /forum/post/0


But I have to admit that the Sharp 12K MII is at a different level, its just that simple.
Click to expand...

That should not be surprising. We should remember that before the Ruby hit the market in Nov '05 the 12K II, along with the Yamaha 1300 and the Marantz S4 were considered as having arguably the best pq on the planet. The all had MSRPs > $11K!


Like Bob, I also own a Ruby along with the 12K II. I agree that the 12k II at the "warehouse" price is an outstanding value, however IMO the Ruby is clearly better.
Reply
Save
Like
P
Can someone record the fan noise so we have some idea of what it sounds like? I once bought PC cooling supplies from a website, sidewindercomputers.com I think, they have recordings of all the fans so you could hear how loud they are. Pretty cool.
Reply
Save
Like
B
The only neg I read about the sharp is it wasn't really suited for larger screens.


I have a dedicated room, 100% light control. Front wall is black. Side walls and ceiling are a dark dark brown. Room is 14x29. Seating is at 18 & 25'. Projector would be mounted about 15 feet back.


But - I'm projecting on a 119" screen. Granted, my screen is a high power. And I do have 100% light control.


But is the sharp bright enough for this?


I could possibly be convinced to return my ax100.
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
E

Quote:
Originally Posted by bqmeister /forum/post/0


The only neg I read about the sharp is it wasn't really suited for larger screens.


I have a dedicated room, 100% light control. Front wall is black. Side walls and ceiling are a dark dark brown. Room is 14x29. Seating is at 18 & 25'. Projector would be mounted about 15 feet back.


But - I'm projecting on a 119" screen. Granted, my screen is a high power. And I do have 100% light control.


But is the sharp bright enough for this?


I could possibly be convinced to return my ax100.
Click to expand...


My friend had the 12K MII and now has the 20K uses a 123 inch Stewart Ultramat 150 which is 1.5 gain screen and his picture is very bright in econo-bulb on, high brightness mode. With your Highpower I would have to think that you will have a very bright picture, probably brighter than his. In fact I have another friend who thinks the Sharp on the 123 inch Ultramat is too bright but I don't agee.


As I said in my review I found the Sharp produced about the same or brighter brightness levels as my AX100 did with about half the lumens. On the Panny Vivid cinema puts out about 1000 lumens the Sharp in high brightness econ-bulb on puts out about 5 to 600 lumens but the Sharp looks brighter, especially the top end whites.
Reply
Save
Like
B
I'm very tempted. Very tempted.


I might make the switch after the sopranos season is over. I figure the entire swap will take up to 3 weeks, so I gotta be prepared to be without for that time period.


Just need to look at the manual and see if the offset and shift from the sharp will fit my room. I doubt I'll have a problem though.
Reply
Save
Like
L

Quote:
Originally Posted by erniec /forum/post/0


As I said in my review I found the Sharp produced about the same or brighter brightness levels as my AX100 did with about half the lumens. On the Panny Vivid cinema puts out about 1000 lumens the Sharp in high brightness econ-bulb on puts out about 5 to 600 lumens but the Sharp looks brighter, especially the top end whites.
Click to expand...

The DI on the AX100 is probably ramping down the brightness for a better contrast ratio... unless you're talking about full-field white. The odd thing about the eye is that whites always look 100% white until you put a brighter white up next to it. The same is true for black level, however, since there is rarely a bright white source in a HT, and there is plenty of black, the black level is much more important.


With my AX100, I definitely notice the foggy look and sometimes see off-colors, so I've ordered a Sharp. This should be a fun comparison. I work in the AV industry (new to it, though), so I'll invite a few of the the guys I work with over to hear their thoughts between the two, as well. They've been in the industry for a while now, so I value their opinions.
Reply
Save
Like
J
Regarding the new price of the 12k, Cedia 2007 is just 14 weeks away, it is possible that Sharp knows something that we don't.


Let's say that if soon more stores will come out with this new price for the 12k, it will be a strong evidence that something is cooking for Cedia 2007.
Reply
Save
Like
B

Quote:
Originally Posted by erniec /forum/post/0


I have been reluctant to post my observations about how the Sharp stacks up to the Panny because I have owned the 500, the 900 and most recently the AX100, I really like Panasonics in general and have a deep appreciation that Panasonic has been at the forefront in bringing outstanding price/performance to the masses. But I have to admit that the Sharp 12K MII is at a different level, its just that simple.


Last year, I would freqently visit my friend who at the time had the 12k MII, needless to say it was an impressive state of the art picture that I felt I would probably never have in my theater due to the cost. In the fall of last year my friend replaced the 12K with Sharp's 1080p model (the 20k). Naturally I asked my buddy what he thought, to paraphrase what he said "the 20k was better but not by much and of the noticeble improvements 1080p resolution was probably the least significant". I never forgot those words. During this time when I would visit my friend I remember I use to come back home fire up my Panny and mentally adjust to what I felt was very good PQ but not state of the art like I would see over my his house.


Fast forward to April 07, I learn on this forum that the 12k MII is available for about the same money that I paid for the AX100. I asked myself if I would rather have a 2007 Honda Accord or Toyota Camy vs a 2006 Benz, Lexus, BMW etc. to me it was a no brainer so I order the 12k. The same day that I am setting up 12k another friend who planned to purchase my 100 comes by to pick it up. He stays for a while looks the 12k showing some Comcast cable material and leaves to go home and play with his new toy (the AX100). About 9 o'clock that same evening to my suprise my friend shows up again, sits down with me to watch some HD DVD's. All the while I am wondering why he isn't home watching his new 100. Ten to fifteen minutes later my friend says he just couldn't get over what he had seen earlier that day and he just had to come back. Then he says to me "I have to get me one of these and would I be willing to take back the 100"


Easter Sunday my wife who can care less about our toys comes down to the basement and literally stops in her tracks says wow about 3 times and says to me "this television is so much better than your other television". Need I say more.


Later that afternoon friends and family are over for Easter and to make a long story short they all are impressed with the picture. My son in law who was very familiar with my Panny set up says "I got to get me one of these", I still think his wife (my daughter) is still a little PO'ed at both of us. My son in law now has the 12k as his 1st PJ (unbelievable) .


Brightness


The biggest suprise with the 12k compared to the 100 is that the 12k seems to muster up a brighter picture with fewer lumens. I would say that they are roughly equivalent in brightness when the Panny is in Vivid Cinema (approx. 1000 lumens) and the 12 K putting out about five to six hundred lumens in high brightness mode with the lamp on economy. The 12k clearly has a wider dynamic range and there is no mode you can put the Panny in that will give you the top end white detail of the 12k. This is not a knock on the Panny I know this to be true with other LCD's like the Z5.


Contrast


The 12k makes it feel like I actually painted my room a darker color, even though the contrast specs are similar the 12k has much deeper and richer blacks. Shadow detail no contest.


Sharpness


Although I never felt that the 100 was lacking, the 12k has a precison and image specificity that is startling. IMO there is a difference between clarity and sharpness and generally speaking I don't think a lot of folks have had an opportunity to see what state of the art optics contributes to the clarity of the overall presentation. I know I didn't before getting the 12k


Color


Again this was another area that suprised the hell out of me simply because I never thought the Panny was doing anything wrong. The 12K seems to extend the color spectrum and gives you shadings and nuance I didn't expect especially with greens. I see much clearer distinctive shading in flesh tones etc. but what blew me away was the rendering and differences i see when looking at different baseball fields or outdoor scenes in movies that have have shots of natural landscapes with grass, trees, and other green stuff.


3D Effect


I have saved the best for last. This is an area where the 100 and I suspect most of the other

Noise Level


The 12k is not a quiet projector. I have the Toshiba XA 1 and I always felt that the AX 100 was actually quieter than the DVD player. The 12K is noticeably louder than both.
Click to expand...

Interesting post. Still, I'm not completely sure what PJ you're talking about. Is this the one: Sharp XV-Z12000 MARK II? If so, at $5000, it is hardly within the AX-100's price-range. I mean, I'd love to try out the Sharp (since I'm currently considering the AX-100) but I can get the Panny for 1200 dollars/euro, and I highly doubt the Sharp will approach this pricetag anytime soon. What's the best deal you can get it for at this moment?


Also, had you not seen the Sharp, do you think you still would've been impressed by the AX-100? Or would you have shopped around for something else, regardless?
Reply
Save
Like
1 - 20 of 100 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
AVS Forum
A forum community dedicated to home theater owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about home audio/video, TVs, projectors, screens, receivers, speakers, projects, DIY’s, product reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
Receivers, Amps, and Processors LCD Flat Panel Displays Speakers HDTV Programming Home Theater Computers
Top