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Discussion Starter #1
I am interested in upgrading from my Pioneer Elite 610HD (58" widescreen) RPTV. I want a bigger picture with equal or better quality. I will sit about 11.5 ft away and am figuring a screen size of 69" wide. Light control is about 88%.


I saw the 9000 at 6th ave electronics with screwed up HD Net feed and a progressive DVD source and a lot of ambient light and was not impressed. Lots of stairstepping and RPTV's looked much better.


I saw the 9000 at Stereo Exchange in NYC and it looked awesome using a 5K RUnco scaler at 720P and a 80" wide greyhawk (I believe) No stairstepping, however during the promo at the beggining of the X-Files DVD there appeared to be"scan lines" for a moment. HD looked great.


I saw the 9000 at Harveys in Eatontown w/ a 5K Runco set to 480P and Gladiator looked pretty good and I saw some stairstepping.


I saw the 9000 at Harveys in Paramus w/ a 7K Runco scaler set to 720P and I saw a lot of stairstepping on THe Wall and JAmes Tayler "Live at the Beacon" DVD's.


I was close to buying the 9000 after seeing in NYC, but w\\ the stairstepping and the potential dithering and rainbow problems I think I am leaning towards CRT again. The convenience of a digital projector sure would have been nice.


Anybody elso see this stairstepping problem or have cure?
 

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Quote:
I saw the 9000 at Harveys in Eatontown w/ a 5K Runco set to 480P and Gladiator looked pretty good and I saw some stairstepping.
why would they output 480P from a scaler that's feeding a native 720P projector? hmmmm. In any case, I'm sure it would have looked better...maybe no "stairstepping" had the scaler been set to 720 p.

Quote:
I saw the 9000 at Harveys in Paramus w/ a 7K Runco scaler set to 720P and I saw a lot of stairstepping on THe Wall and JAmes Tayler "Live at the Beacon" DVD's.
This might have more to do with the source material being native 480I vs film. I've seen the runco DLP (4x3) with it's scaler doing James and I saw lots of combing on motion...especially hands on the guitar. I think that the scaler just isn't very adept at deinterlacing live 480I. Not sure but the wall might originate on film so that would blow that excuse for that demo.


In any case...it could be a function of the scalers. Clearly the scaler was at fault in all cases where the output was 720P, as in this case the sharp is just displaying the native signal with no vertical scaling.


-dave
 

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Discussion Starter #3
David,


I agree that setting the Runco scaler to 480P was not ideal and tried for 45 minutes to change it. They were busy so I was on my own. Later I learned that you can only change the rate in a secret service menu. I think it is a different remote.


If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the 9000 will not cause stairstepping. Stairstepping will only be caused by a scaler or downconversion of a HD Box?


BTW Is combing the another name for stairstepping?
 

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A better way to explain it is to say that if the Sharp is fed a signal that matches its own vertical resolution of 720P, the image you see will look just like what goes in. If there's no stair-stepping in the source 720P image...you won't see any on the sharp. If there is some in the signal, then you'll see it.


So my point was that if you're using a scaler that's feeding the sharp a 720 signal and you see stairstepping, the fauld is in the scaler or source material being scaled.


That's not to say that the sharp's OWN scaler might not introduce some stair-stepping on occasion as well when upconverting 480 material. I've seen a bit from time to time on some demos I've seen. Not too much to be a problem, but I've noticed it on occasion.


"combing" referes to when the 3-2 pulldown thing goes wrong, and ties to pair up fields together to recreate the original "frame" but goofs and picks the wrong fields. This is VERY obvious when a deinterlacer like in the sharp is set to 'film' mode but receives native 480I video at the same time (like when you switch to the animated menu of a film-based DVD, for instance.) Where ever there is motion you get these horiztonal streaks where the scan-lines are mismatched.


Bottom line is a good outboard deinterlacer coupled with a good 720P scaler would render the issue moot. As long as you don't mind *occasional* combing or stair-stepping and you're fine with manually switching the sharp's deinterlacing mode from film to video when you play different material, then you might be able to get along without the expense of the outboard device.


-dave
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanx for the explanation. I am confused about one thing though. Why did I see stairstepping on James Taylor with the SHarp and Runco scaler set to 720P but not on the Runco CRT with the Runco scaler set to 480 P?
 

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Let me play detective.


The James Taylor DVD starts out as 480I. It's "video" that was shot live so it's real 480I...not actual film frames split into halves to fit into a 480I format but that actually can be restored through 3-2 pulldown back into 480P.


Ok, so we've got 480I.


Now the Runco scaler deinterlaces this to 480P. Let's assume it does this perfectly with no combing or anything because it's specially set up for video material.


Now the scaler tries to upconvert the 480 lines to 720 lines. This involves math and there's no exact ratio for conversion. It would be imaginable that you could get aliasing in such a case (which is why you get occasional aliasing when feeding the sharp 480I/P...because it also scales the image to 720).


But the CRT projector can display 480 lines natively...so if the runco just had to deinterlace...and did a good job...then sent the 480P lines to a crt projector...you've avoided doing any scaling math.


This lack of scaling artifacts is one reason why poeple have talked about that piano dlp projector...it does 480 natively with 16x9 video and therefore doesn't need to scale (in the vertical direction).


Bottom line: Good scaling is better than no scaling. But mediocre scaling or bad scaling are not better.


If you find the artifacts distracting...or at least MORE distracting than a native 480 image, then it counts as "bad scaling".


-dave
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Wow! You really seem to know your stuff.


I have a few more questions for you. Hope you don't mind.


Is the bottom line that James Taylor's DVD will look like this on the 9000 no matter what scaler I use?


Might the Faroudja NR help or will all 480i native video be problamatic (due to my sensitivity to this) on the 9000?


Are aliasing and artifacts synonyms for what I am calling "stairstepping"?


Thanx
 

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Warren,


For video-based stuff, there isn't any really "right" way to remove all interlaced artifacts, as opposed to on film-based stuff. You always have the case where half of the scan lines on a frame are taken from a different moment in time, unlike with film.


I have the JT disk, and it's a good one for testing video deinterlacing schemes. I have seen it on my own system with all of the following devices. Here in the order of best to worst:


Faroudja DVP3000

Rock+

Vigatec GVC1280

HTPC


It was very, very close between the Faroudja and the Rock. Both the Vig and the HTPC will show noticeable jaggies on angled edges such as guitar strings, piano keys etc. on video-based material.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
It seems that I really should see the 9000 with a Faroudja or a Rock+ before I decide to move on to something else.


Do you know if there much difference in the performance between DVP3000 and the NR with regard to 720P? My guess is yes, but it doesn't hurt to hope.


I guess jaggies is the term you use for what I call stairstepping?
 

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I have not had a chance to see the NR scaler, but from what I understand it should be similar to the DVP3000.


I think we're talking about the same thing re: jaggies vs. stair-stepping. Watch JT's guitar strings when the guitar moves up and down slightly. The will not be straight lines, but instead break up into jaggy segments. The Faroudja and Rock can significantly smooth these out, although it does of course result in some increased apparent softness.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I am going to Hifi House in PA. today and will see the 9000 w/ the NR Faroudja. My finger are crossed.
 

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Hey, Dave.....

Do I know you from Soundex? I've been doing business with Mark P. since he's been there, and before that when he was at Hi Fi House. (I turned them on to the Sony 400 LCD PJ when it was first released 4 years ago)

Anyway, I've had my Sharp 9000 DLP for about a month. Tremendous performance with HD signals (Dish 6000), both OTA and SAT (HBO-HD, SHO-HD, etc.). DVD's with 480p output (Sony ES9000) is also outstanding. I've always been dissapointed with the output of NTSC signals from the Dish 6000 and Direct TV (I *MUST* have my "NFL Sunday Ticket").

After much consideration and insightful information from this forum, I had Mark order me the Faroudja NRS which I picked-up last night. Of course, the NRS was set-up to output at 1280 x 720. My question regards the setting on the Sharp 9000 with reference to the 3 options: 2D, 3D, or Film mode.

Since the NRS will be outputting a 720p signal, to which of these settings should the Sharp be in? Will I still need to change the settings depending on whether its film-based or video-based material?

Thanks!

TMPSU
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I saw the 9000 with a NR 1024 X 768 (or something close to that), and the 3000 set to 1280x720.


I would think the 3000 set to 1280X720 would perform better than the NR, but I am hoping a I am wrong.


The 3000 removed most of the "Scan lines" in the James Taylor DVD "Live at the Beacon" that I am using as a demo. I still saw a few on the microphone, but I think I could live with those. I also still saw a slight halo effect around some of the musicians, but I believe at my viewing distance they won't be noticeable.


I am very interested in the Rock+. From your post Jim it seems that it is very close in performance to the Faroudja and I believe it has changable rates as well. Are they internet only or is there someplace to see a demo of the Rock+.


Thanx for the help.
 

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Hi TMPSU-
Quote:
My question regards the setting on the Sharp 9000 with reference to the 3 options: 2D, 3D, or Film mode. Since the NRS will be outputting a 720p signal, to which of these settings should the Sharp be in? Will I still need to change the settings depending on whether its film-based or video-based material?
Once you use the NRS and output 720P to the Sharp, none of these options will be available, your NRS will take care of the deinterlacing. You will also be doing all aspect ratio control from the NRS also.
 

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Quote:
Hey, Dave.....

Do I know you from Soundex?
Yep...I used to work there. I installed several of those Sony 400Qs that you got Mark into (who in turn got Soundex into). You're personally responsible for the chain of events that Has Soundex now selling the Sharp 9000...you should be proud :)


Quote:
Anyway, I've had my Sharp 9000 DLP for about a month. Tremendous performance with HD signals (Dish 6000), both OTA and SAT (HBO-HD, SHO-HD, etc.). DVD's with 480p output (Sony ES9000) is also outstanding.
ahhhhh.

Quote:
After much consideration and insightful information from this forum, I had Mark order me the Faroudja NRS which I picked-up last night. Of course, the NRS was set-up to output at 1280 x 720. My question regards the setting on the Sharp 9000 with reference to the 3 options: 2D, 3D, or Film mode.

Since the NRS will be outputting a 720p signal, to which of these settings should the Sharp be in? Will I still need to change the settings depending on whether its film-based or video-based material?

Thanks!

TMPSU
Like the other poster said, these deinterlacing algorithms only apply to incoming 480I signals...480P and above will *not* utilize these circuits.


One question remains open...will the deinterlacing algorithms be used for 1080I material which must be downconverted to 720P...which does include an interlace-> progressive conversion...anybody know that?


But it doesn't matter to you because your Faroudja will do all the work and give the projector the 720P signal it will display natively.


I've got a question for you...put on a DVD if you don't mind (without the NRS) and look at the faces of the actors when they move...do you see the "crawlies" I mention in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...threadid=92919


I'm curious if the NRS will get rid of them (if they are a scaling artifact of the 9000) or if they'll still be there (MPEG2 related). Please check out my thread and see if you notice any of those issues with 480I/P DVD...and if you *don't* notice them with HD or the NRS upconverting.


thanks,


dave :)
 
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