AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 52 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
479 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
NickW started the Sharp 9000 lip sync problem conversation here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&postid=678939


I thought I would continue it in a thread dedicated to the subject.

My test set up: Sony DSS satellite receiver tuned to CNN Headline News (channel 204) plugged into a Yamaha DSP-A3090 receiver via a composite video cable and analog audio cables. The receiver has two composite outputs. One is going to a 32" direct view TV. The other is going to my new Sharp 9000 projector. The TV is directly below the screen for easy simultaneous comparison.

Problem: The projector's video is definitely a little behind the TV video. Conversation in the other thread is that this could be attributed to the internal video scaler. I cannot test this, but Nick says there is no problem when viewing 480p video on the 9000, only 480i.

Questions:
  • Do all 480i-to-480p scalers introduce video delay?
  • What versions of the Sharp have this problem and what versions don't? My Sharp status screen says Z901819 in the lower right hand corner. So does Nick's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
Augie,



Sorry that you've had to join the club :(



Sounds like cam (who has the Japanese version) doesn't have this issue.



Sharp *still* haven't bother to reply to my mails....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
529 Posts
Hi Augie and Nick,


My 9000 has the same software (Z901819) and I don't have the lip sync issue, but I am using the NRS, scaling 720P to the 9000. I will try to bypass the NRS and do some testing. I have been trying as variety of DVD's and DSS material and have not been able to experience the lip sync problem- except in one case. This is strange, but the Hannibal DVD had a big lip sync problem, even through the NRS. I have not tried this DVD again and at the time, I thought it was the dvd or something else, until Nick raised the lip sync issue. Since then I have watched several DVD's, the World Series, movies on DirecTV- all without any trace of a lip sync problem. I will definitely try the Hannibal DVD again.

Augie- Just as point of reference, I am using a 100" diagonal 16:9 GrayHawk screen, and find the picture absolutely stunning. The opening of Montage of Images on VE is incredible with great black levels and shadow details. The picture has plenty of "punch" and brightness (800 ansi mode). I view in a darkened environment so the GrayHawk works for me. However, as others have stated, I don't think this projector has enough light output with a GrayHawk to watch in direct sunlight or with lot of lights on. If I put enough of my recessed lighting on, the picture gets washed out, although it is still viewable. I had an ISF tech over for calibration and he said he was measuring plenty of light output in my darkened environment, so as I stated earlier, the GrayHawk works in my situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
479 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Stacey Spears (a member of the AVS Forum) in a May 1999 review of the Meridian 861 Surround Processor:


"A couple of new features have been added here with the 2.0 upgrade which are definitely worth mentioning. The first is the number of video frames to delay the audio. This is used when there is a video scaler like a line doubler in the system. They tend to cause lip sync errors, so this is a global variable that will allow you to compensate for the problem."


Here's a link to the entire review:

http://www.sdinfo.com/volume_6_2/mer...processor.html


I guess the answer to my "do all scalers introduce delay" question is yes.


So how do I delay the audio on my Yamaha DSP-A3090 receiver? I've looked through all of the parameters and can't find anything. If the receiver can't do it, is there an accessory that will?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
Augie,



Been there, seen that, got the T-shirt!


I've spoken to a lot of people, both in the industry, and I've also posted on the audio forum.


Funnily enough, I've got the same a/v amp!



I have two audio transport mechanisms: simple stereo lines from the digital satellite box, which has Pro Logic encoded on them (analogue), and a PCM stream from the DVD player, coming over either fibre, or it can go co-ax.


An industrial 2 channel audio delay of at least 20bit resolution and 48 kHz sample rate should do the trick for my satellite issues. How about $1600? :eek: That's the cheapest I can find :(


The PCM is more complicated. At the moment, I can't find any purchasable method for solving this issue, but I *could* design one with a collegue. This would involve detecting the PCM stream (optically), generating a sync signal from it, using shift registers to delay the stream, then outputing it optically, synced to the original stream. Not a 5 minute job (therefore expensive), but possible.


So I can dig myself out of this hole if push comes to shove, but in my eyes, it's simple:


Sharp have screwed up, and they need to fix this problem. I (and others) have spent big bucks on their product, and it doesn't work, and they need to come up with answers *now*.


They aren't saying *anything* at present (they haven't even replyed to the ProjectorCentral people yet, let alone a customer like me), so I recommend to anyone who can to hold off with their purchase until we understand what's going on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,991 Posts
Nick my friend, please shoot of a email to this person here for a response-


Frank DeMartin

Product Manager Sharp USA For the Sharp XV-Z9000U Projector-

[email protected]


I suggest any other US XV-Z9000U owners experiencing the same problem, or any worried future buyers do the same.


Hope this helps,


Spero D.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Changing the distance to speaker setting on the receiver probably won't help.


Since most deinterlacers use multiple interlaced fields to produce new deinterlaced frames, this seems like this would be a common problem. The following link discusses this topic, and it sounds like a lot of the higher-end audio processors handle this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
479 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Nick,


The Sharp internal scaler is causing video delay, but I don't think they "screwed up" -- I don't think it's a "problem" that Sharp can fix. Apparently all video processors, even the Faroudja's, cause delay. This video processor-induced video delay is widespread enough that several audio processors include an audio delay function, but not ours unfortunately.


Other Sharp owners who have told us that they don't have any lip sync issues probably just aren't looking hard enough. The video delay is so slight that if you don't stare at lips for hours or look for the problem, you may never notice it. I wasn't sure there was a lip sync issue until I watched my TV and my Sharp 9000 at the same time.


An example: I took my projector back to the dealer to have him look at the lip sync issue. He spend some time last night watching interviews on DVDs (480i) and said he didn't see any lip sync problem. I know the video is behind the audio, but it may be so slight that a lot of people won't notice.


I'm still interested in pursuing a solution, but thanks to the responses we've gotten in this thread, it sounds like all video processors cause delay and that the Sharp is no different. I just wish our Yamaha DSP-A3090's had an audio delay feature.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
Spizz,


Done - we'll see what he has to say for himself. Thanks for the new address.



Augie,



Sorry, don't buy this completely :)



My 400Q had a deinterlacer and didn't do this. The NRS is hugely more sophisticated than the Sharp and isn't anywhere near as bad (I wouldn't swear it's gone, but who knows what is still going on in the Sharp).


If this were the case, we'd have been hearing about video processors and lip-sync since Yves Faroudja first dreamed about line doubling or whatever. I'm going to ask Mark Rejhon (who is a video processing and HTPC guru) to give us an opinion on this but I can't believe that the video needs to be more than 2 or 3 frames behind the sound.


I'm willing to bet other projectors, like the 10 or 11HT don't have this problem.



But maybe I'm wrong, and I suffer from this like other suffer from rainbows. If so, I guess I better get inventing. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
Yeah, about 186,000 miles per sec x 0.2 sec = 37,200 miles long should do it ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
maddave,



Yep, that's a thought.


Theoretically, an HTPC playing a DVD should already be able to sync the audio perfectly to the video by delaying the audio by however many frames required to de-interlace.


So I'm theorising that the Z9000U with a good HTPC will be fine.



What I need is to use an HTPC as a programmable delay. It would need to have a card with an optical / PCM input as well as output and the rest could be done in software. I don't know if such cards exist.


The DScaler open-source scaler/deinterlacer should be able to add an audio delay if such input H/W existed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
479 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Nick,


Why are you worried about the lip sync issue with DVDs? Aren't you going to watch DVDs using a progressive scan DVD player? If you are, there is no problem... and you don't need to delay optical audio.


You want to delay the audio for interlaced sources like a VCR. In that case, you want to delay the audio coming from the analog audio outputs of your VCR... or do you have interlaced sources with digital audio outputs?


BTW, how good does the Sharp 9000 look? I'm watching Ronin on DVD via a composite connection. I'm using a 10 year old el cheapo Radio Shack analog audio cable as a composite cable. I'm projecting the image on a white plastic tablecloth that's taped to my ceiling. It looks great! I'll never leave my couch once I get my component cables and screen!:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
218 Posts
Nick,


As Augie said, I think you are mixing up issues. The people who are reporting the lip sync issue are seeing it only with interlaced inputs. If you were to use an HTPC, you wouldn't need to add a delay since you could output 720p directly to the projector (via input#2 and a breakout since Sharp has a stupid bug with input #5) and it would disable the internal scaler, etc...


BTW, I only had 6 hours with my 9000 before leaving town for a business trip (sucky timing, eh?) but it looked gorgeous and I didn't notice a lipsync issue yet (even though currently I am feeding it interlaced inputs) -- soon to be NRS so it won't matter for me either...


-Jon
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,176 Posts
Many digital displays have their own internal refresh rate -- During refresh rate conversion, there can be an additional induced delay (usually 1/60th of a second at most, but can be more such as 2/60th of a second for certain triple-buffered digital displays).


Now, combine this with the video processors' naturally induced lip sync delays... All video processors have to delay the video somewhat (some less than others) in order to do video processing.


These two combined delays can sometimes cause aggravated lip sync problems when using an external video processor with a digital display.


It is normal for a digital display to have worse lip-sync delay with interlaced video than with progressive video because it is doing deinterlacing (which adds extra lip sync delay).


When you've got a particularly nasty combination, then in order to compensate for this, an audio delay adjustment is often required to eliminate noticeable lip sync problems. Usually, a good digital surround sound receiver includes such an adjustment. A HTPC could also theoretically do a delay adjustment, if capability was included in the software.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Augie
Nick,


Why are you worried about the lip sync issue with DVDs? Aren't you going to watch DVDs using a progressive scan DVD player? If you are, there is no problem... and you don't need to delay optical audio.
- Sorry, I didn't explain: a new digital satellite receiver available in the UK has optical PCM out (for future sports and movie broadcast with Dolby Dig). The lip sync issues are greatest with this input source.

Quote:


You want to delay the audio for interlaced sources like a VCR. In that case, you want to delay the audio coming from the analog audio outputs of your VCR... or do you have interlaced sources with digital audio outputs?
- Yes but again, cheapest I can find at the moment is $1600




mittelhauser,



I'm not confused at all ;)



1 I think its clear that there *is* some kind of issue with this machine, even if it is sporadic, and with the U spec only.


2 It cost a boat-load of cash and shouldn't do this


3 Many people who buy it won't want to buy an NRS


4 Many people will want to watch interlaced sources with it



I'm just campaigning for Sharp to come clean and fix it, and also address some of the other silly firmware issues which would make this PJ more attractive to so many others.
 
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top