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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greetings,


Yesterday, I attended a special intro event for the Sharp XV-Z9000U DLP projector at LaserLand Home Theater in San Jose.


I was absolutely floored by the quality of this projector. I'm in the market for HDTV right now, and this would be an absolute slam dunk no-brainer for me.


Except for one thing: there's no copy-protected digital input on this beast, as far as I can tell.


All the rumblings seem to indicate that rental movies and perhaps at least some broadcast premium content won't be viewable at full HD resolution on systems with analog-only inputs, so I'm really surprised that Sharp has chosen to release a projector at this point in time without such an input.


Has anybody asked Sharp about this (I didn't get a chance to ask the rep)? Does anybody know of a similar set coming with the same engine in it, but with a copy-protected input?


Thanks!


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Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)
 

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I wouldn't put it past them to announce a DVI/HDCP compatible unit at the CES in Jan. 2002. I heard some rumblings that more DVI and FireWire HDTV products would be announced then too.


Sit tight and wait for the dust to settle.


Dan


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STOP HDCP/5C and The MPAA!!
 

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Quote:
All the rumblings seem to indicate that rental movies and perhaps at least some broadcast premium content won't be viewable at full HD resolution on systems with analog-only inputs, so I'm really surprised that Sharp has chosen to release a projector at this point in time without such an input.
These rumblings are very true. Sharp had two options either wait or release. They choose the later. IMHO I believe it is an error, because from what I hear all projectors released after CES in January will have the benefit of a copy protected digital connection standard which will be with us for years to come.


Dan is quite correct sit tight and watch AVS and the CES as we are not talking very long here. If it was 12mths off then perhaps you could jump in and buy the Sharp but we are too close to products that will have a copy protected digital connection.



DavidW
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
AAAAAaargh! The pain. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


Any word on whether some of the other new projectors (the Marantz) with the new DLP engine will sport copy protected inputs?


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Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)
 

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Quote:
AAAAAaargh! The pain.

Any word on whether some of the other new projectors (the Marantz) with the new DLP engine will sport copy protected inputs?


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Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)

I am not sure about Marantz (I can not remember the OEM).

The three I have confirmed with DVI at the CES are Barco/DWIN/Yamaha. Seleco have yet made a comment on the HT-300 but some say it may have IEE1394 (Firewire).

One interesting tit bit was the Barco will come with SDI as well which is very cool.

I would imagine we will see more announcements later this year but the three I mentioned are confirmed from good sources.

Bed time for me, its way too late for this type of mental straining by thinking too much about this drama.


DavidW
 

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Granted, the whole copyrighted DVI thing going on over there hasn't really surfaced properly on my radar yet (anyone have any sites etc to reference so I could read about it?) but what would stop someone from creating an interface box with this copyprotected DVI input in one end and component video output in the other?


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/Kimmo
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
What would stop them is that this is EXACTLY the type of scenario that these outputs are intended to prevent. The digital data on these connections is encrypted, and only licensed devices will be issued the keys to decrypt.


Furthermore, building such a conversion device would allow you to circumvent copy protection. Under the US's Draconian DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act), this is a Federal crime.


Basically, the movie studios are concerned that somebody will take a HD movie (broadcast or on D-VHS or a future HD-DVD format), and have such a high-quality picture that they could make pirated DVD's, tapes, and so on that looked so good that they would significantly adversely affect the studios' revenues.


So, they're insisting that all the connections between the playback device and the display be encrypted.


Playback devices are still permitted to have analog outputs, but depending upon the "flags" set in the digital data of the program, those outputs may have to output a "constrained image" -- 540x960i for 1080i content.


I'm not about to spend $9-10k on a projector that is going to be forced to watch rented HD movies or satellite HD programming at 1/4 of its true resolution.


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Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)


[This message has been edited by JustMike (edited 10-01-2001).]
 

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Its interesting to note that Buzz (TAG) over on the Audio forum has released details of the upgrades for the TAG AV192R processor.

It will have a DVI input and output. Also it will have an option for a video scaler which will take DVI and output DVI. The TAG Dvd player will also come with a DVI output.


Reading the release details it was also interesting to note that only the DVI output can access the full resolution of the DVD-A output as well. So its encyption all around and unless you buy the right gear it looks like many will have to settle for the down graded audio and video signal.


I guess as long as Hollywood is happy then we finally might get to see HD-Dvd, which would be a great thing in my view.

It just shows me even more that DVI is looking like a must have issue especially if you want the best quality.

I certainly want HD-Dvd thats for sure as I am watch a lot of HD now days and Dvd just looks like a poor cousin on my systems.



DavidW
 

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If we can get DVI all the way around...even on our DVD players, DVI inputs/outputs on our scalers...then we don't need HTPC anymore as we always would have that same advantage of a "pure" digital image to work with.


I'm more excited about the possibility of taking a DVD and digitally outputing the native video signal to my scaler/deinterlacer and then digitally sending that with 1:1 pixel mapping to my digital projector than I'm upset about copy protection on HD broadcast.


Dave, can you provide some links to this TAG information???


It could be a beautifully resolved world on the big screen, even if we can't copy.


only bummer are decoders and projectors out there now that won't benefit. I'm sure some work-around will be made for existing hardware. It's just silly that no one with a $50,000 CRT projector will be able to watch HD-broadcast in a year and I just can't believe that would really be the fate of HT enthusiasts who already own projector hardware.


-dave


[This message has been edited by DaViD Boulet (edited 10-01-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Well, to date, Hollywood had proved totally uninterested in preserving the investments of those folks with the $50k projectors (much less the $10k DLP or $5k RPTV).


Supposedly, the two new D-VHS decks coming (JVC, Mitsubishi) both have copy-protected digital outputs. Depending upon the source material, they may not display full resolution on the analog outputs (if they even have them). The same guy behind HDNet has said he's going to be doing 1080i movies on D-VHS for these decks. It will be VERY interesting to see whether they're image constrained when sent to analog. I'm betting they will be.


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Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)
 

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Mike,


I interviewed Mark Cuban for an upcoming issue. He said that none of HD Net's content will be copy-protected. So I assume that would extend to content released on D-VHS. The exception might be if they also start telecine'ing movies to be released on the tape format.


Best Regards,


Pat
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Heya Pat,


I believe that's exactly what they were planning to do: 1080i Hollywood films. I might have misunderstood, but if that's the case I would be really surprised if the studios didn't insist on copy protection. If you ever get the chance to do a follow-up, it'd be great to know what their plans are, and what his thoughts are on obsoleteing people's gear.


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Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)
 

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Does anyone have definitive word on whether or not the Seleco HT300 and the new 1280x720 Marantz DLP will have 1394 or DVI inputs?


The Seleco is due mid-November. When is the Marantz coming out?


If none of the 1280x720 DLP projectors have 1394 or DVI, I won't worry about it. I can't wait another year to buy. I'll go ahead and get the Sharp and hope for the best.
 

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JustMike,



Not to disbute what you are saying, but my respose to the "no adapter for dvi" is simple.


Macrovision remover available at your local Bestbuy, right on the shelf. WHat makes on think there wont be device's avail for these units? If it can be locked, it can be unlocked, Its only a matter of time, money, and interest.


Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Four letters: DMCA.


The Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes it a Federal crime to manufacture such a device, and a Federal crime to use such a device.


Also, unlike Macrovision (which is a very simplistic analog "hack"), DTCP and HDCP are "real" digital encryption. It may be broken, but it's much harder to do so. Furthermore, licensed devices have the capability of having their encryption keys revoked by key lists contained in the encrypted media, so if a particular device's keys are compromised, they won't continue to work for long.


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Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)
 

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Mike obviously feels very strongly about this issue. Do others really think that everyone without one of these inputs would be left out to dry?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
FWIW, this was recently a VERY hot topic over on the HDTV Hardware forum. I'd rather not start another giant discussion here, but if anybody is interested, you can read my summary of the two encryption technologies here .


I'd like to think that this type of encryption will be phased in gradually so as to allow the current incompatible equipment to live out its life and be replaced with stuff that is. BUT, I'm not sure I'm willing to place a $10,000 bet on that subject. Now, if Sharp would do what Mitsubishi has done and promise to upgrade their HD-capable sets, I'd buy one tomorrow.


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Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)
 

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The TAG Paper
Quote:
As promised we have outlined a roadmap for the future of the AV32R processor.

Details here. http://www.tagmclarenaudio.com/dev/news/news102.asp
See also this press release:


New A/V Interconnect Standard http://www.guidetohometheater.com/shownews.cgi?1106


HDTV Finally Moving Forward http://www.guidetohometheater.com/shownews.cgi?1062


Here are some more quotes from people around the forum.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chris Stephens -- ex: Ultimate Entertainment Digital Guy

Special Guest Forum


One thing for sure DVI is about to become a defacto standard for all things video in the consumer market. You should be at least wiring for DVI to the projector or you loose.


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Quote:
Both SDI and DVI can handle HD. DVI could just barely handle 1080p at 60 Hz without going to a dual cable solution.

quote:

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Has any mainstream company announced product such as DVD players or set-top boxes with DVI out?

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They're coming now that the copy protection issues are pretty much sorted out. There are still a few tweaks the manufacturers want to do to DVI to make it better for the consumer application, but they will probably be minor.


Keith Jack

Author: Video Demystified


The DVI connection must be complient with HDCP.

You must remember that a Digital Connection standard is "brand new" and as such it takes a while to get going (appear on equipment). I am sure you will see almost everyone offer DVI on the next generation models.

The main reason that I see this as an issue and why DVI seems to be the Digital connector of choice, is the people who support it:

Warner Brothers,Fox,Sony,Disney,Direct Tv,Dish Network,Cable

Labs,NEC,Sanyo,Infocus etc etc


Direct Tv and the Dish network said that all licensees will be required to include DVI on all future receivers (from late 2002). Now that the content can be protected via DVI (HDCP), it is only a matter of time before the use of Hi-Def analog outputs will no longer be avaliable on new equipment such as set-top boxes.


Sort of makes buying a HD projector or Scaler without DVI seems a little risky. I just think it is a case of "Buyer Beware" of the issues.

It is just worth pointing out that copy protection will effect all of us at some stage and to some degree. At least be aware of the issues before you kick yourself.

Scream blue murder but you or I can not stop this for all the money in microsofts bank account. For those of us that want a true digital connection for video this is it.



DavidW


 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yup. Exactly my quandary.


The TAG paper was interesting, but suffers from exactly the problem you mentioned: HDCP. DVI coming from an HDCP source won't be able to be fed into their scaler at all. Pity.


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Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Augie:
Does anyone have definitive word on whether or not the Seleco HT300 and the new 1280x720 Marantz DLP will have 1394 or DVI inputs?


The Seleco is due mid-November. When is the Marantz coming out?


If none of the 1280x720 DLP projectors have 1394 or DVI, I won't worry about it. I can't wait another year to buy. I'll go ahead and get the Sharp and hope for the best.
Still looking for an answer regarding the Seleco HT300 and the new Marantz 1280x720 DLP. Will either of them have 1394 and/or DVI inputs?


When is the Marantz coming out? For how much?
 
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