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ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE AV
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Discussion Starter #201 (Edited)
Barco’s using 0.9 DMD not 0.67 DMD chip
Semantics. It's simply the 0.9" commercial/professional variation of the 0.67" chipset with the same architecture, specifications and performance. Hence I don't differentiate the two. The Loki is merely a rebadged and tweaked Barco F90 :)

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Discussion Starter #202 (Edited)
That must be quite a new chipset - I can't even find it listed on the TI website.
It's brand new :)

Kudos to TI for finally getting a native 4K DMD out the door
Well, technically TI released a native 4K 3-Chip DLP DMD years ago, namely the 1.43" Cinema Chip; however, until very recently this was restricted under exclusive license to supply Barco, Christie, and NEC for incorporation into their D-Cinema projectors.

but isn't 0.98" fairly large and result in a requirement for larger optics? Fine above the $50k price point, but might present more of a challenge below the $20k price point.
Not necessarily... The HD 1080p resolution 3 Chip DLP DMD used within both the SIM2 Super Lumis and HDR DUO PLUS is 0.95" so swapping this out for the new 0.98" should be easy, without requiring larger optics... And the SIM2 Super Lumis is priced at $30,000 :)

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you can now purchase a BARCO SP4K-12 for circa $50,000 which is almost half the price of the BARCO LOKI, and uses the new 0.98" Native 4K resolution 3-Chip DLP chipset, with 4-5 times the native ON/OFF contrast performance, 11,000 lumens light output, and a full RGB laser light source (Red, Green and Blue laser diodes) with reportedly 98.5% coverage of BT.2020 color gamut! It's also $10,000 cheaper than the SIM2 NERO4S DUO
I am eagerly waiting for you to vote with your wallet and pick a projector for your bunker build :)
 

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Semantics. It's simply the 0.9" commercial/professional variation of the 0.67" chipset with the same architecture, specifications and performance. Hence I don't differentiate the two. The Loki is merely a rebadged and tweaked Barco F90 :)



:wink:


The 0.67 are used in the Medea and it’s lower the Balder/loki in aspect that they used the 0.9 DMD






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Just to make absolutely clear the SIM2 NERO4S DUO is not a 4K version of the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS, so the latter is not "the HD version" of the former. These are two completely different products with MASSIVELY different video performance. So don't be expecting to see anything like as good overall video performance as the HDR DUO PLUS if you go and check out a demo of the NERO4S DUO :)

You can find the full product details for the NERO4S here: http://www.sim2.com/home/en/content/nero-4s-uhd-hdr

In short, it is a 6000 lumens rated lamp-based projector, which uses the same TI 0.67” 4M-Pixel-Shift Resolution 1-Chip DMD DLP chipset as is found within the entry level OPTOMA and BENQ projectors.

The BenQ LK990 projector features EXACTLY the same identical video chipset, with a 6,000 lumens LASER (not lamp) light engine... and costs only circa 8,000 bucks. The SIM2 NERO4S DUO costs circa 60,000 bucks and a singular NERO4S costs circa 30,000 bucks.

You can find the full product details for the BenQ LK990 here: https://business-display.benq.com/en/findproduct/projector/installation-projectors/lk990/spec.html

The attraction of the BenQ LK990 is the high brightness and laser light engine, at a low cost, wherein the low cost helps to offset the very poor low ADL contrast performance; wherein it should be noted that this chipset has a native ON/OFF contrast of circa 500:1 - 800:1

Let me repeat that... The native ON/OFF contrast performance of this video chipset measures circa 500:1 - 800:1. Yes, seriously.

It is interesting to note that the 'reviews' to which are being referred here, one of which includes absolutely zero measurements, and the other includes a full array of all measurements except only for (conveniently) omitting any and all contrast measurements.... Mmmmm, I wonder why? :rolleyes:

The long and short of it is that I stake my professional reputation on being completely honest and impartial regarding all A/V equipment at all times. Consequently, I will not lie and I will not sugar-coat the truth either.

Wherein, the fact of the matter is that if you are looking for a typical very high brightness, very low ON/OFF contrast performing DLP projector, with single-chip DLP associated Rainbow Effect, then by all means check out these various projectors that all use the same TI 0.67” 4M-Pixel-Shift Resolution 1-Chip DMD DLP chipset; of which the BenQ LK990 probably offers the best value for money.

But to be perfectly honest, TI have just released a far superior chipset, which very considerably outperforms this 0.67” 4M-Pixel-Shift Resolution 1-Chip DMD DLP chipset. Specifically, it is a 0.98" NATIVE 4K (not 4M-Pixel-Shift) resolution 3-Chip DLP (no Rainbow Effect) DMD chipset with 3-4 times greater and hence very considerably superior native ON/OFF contrast performance.

So I ask the question...is there really a market for expensive, as in costing 30,000 - 60,000 bucks, projectors that use this TI 0.67” 4M-Pixel-Shift Resolution 1-Chip DMD DLP chipset, what with its 500:1 - 800:1 Native ON/OFF contrast and Rainbows? When there is now this much, much better chipset available? Not really.

If SIM2 are smart they will ditch the TI 0.67” 4M-Pixel-Shift Resolution 1-Chip DMD DLP chipset with respect to their more expensive projectors, and replace it with the new TI 0.98" NATIVE 4K resolution 3-Chip DLP DMD chipset.

Wherein, they could so very easily simply take the existing SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS, which currently features an almost identical size chipset, being 0.95" in size, and replace this with the new 0.98" NATIVE 4K resolution 3-Chip DLP DMD chipset... And BOOM! You'd have essentially the same absolutely incredible video performance of the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS, but with the NATIVE 4K resolution that so many folks very clearly want! :cool:

Now THIS I would be EXTREMELY excited about and without a doubt SIM2 would sell these by the bucket-load! :D

The NERO4S singular or DUO for 30,000 or 60,000 bucks with its 500:1 - 800:1 native ON/OFF contrast TI 0.67” 4M-Pixel-Shift Resolution 1-Chip 'Rainbow Effect' DLP DMD chipset?

No thanks :)

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It would seem the unknown on the NEUO4S DUO is how much it outperforms other projectors that use the same chipset. The Sim2 Duo Plus, significantly outperforms other Darkchip 3 projectors. It's not clear how much of the supporting Duo technology they have used in the NEUO Duo. But I'm sure they will move to higher contrast 4K chipsets as soon as they can.
 

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ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE AV
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Discussion Starter #206 (Edited)
Semantics. It's simply the 0.9" commercial/professional variation of the 0.67" chipset with the same architecture, specifications and performance. Hence I don't differentiate the two. The Loki is merely a rebadged and tweaked Barco F90 :)
The 0.67 are used in the Medea and it’s lower the Balder/loki in aspect that they used the 0.9 DMD
The 0.9" commercial/professional chipset is 4096 x 2160, the 0.67" domestic chipset is 3840 x 2160.

Aside from this, the architecture, specifications and performance is the same, including both 500:1 - 800:1 native ON/OFF contrast and single-chip DLP (with RBE)

So like I said, you are splitting hairs :)

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Discussion Starter #208 (Edited)

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Dont like speaking for people, but I think his point was there is no reason to spend 30k+ on something like the Barco's or the Nero S 4k, the 4k "sibling" of this Sim2 hdr duo when the Lk990 will give you almost the exact same image for less than 1/3 of the price.



He was actually giving the 990 some credit imo. He said it fills the 4k Laser light cannon niche at by far the best price, and thus a great value.
To clarify, my point is that all of the SIM2 NERO4S ($30,000), SIM2 NERO4S DUO ($60,000), BARCO LOKI ($90,000), and BENQ LK990 ($8,000) contain what is essentially the same identical TI 1-Chip DLP chipset. So why the hell would anyone want to consider buying the SIM2 NERO4S ($30,000), SIM2 NERO4S DUO ($60,000) or BARCO LOKI ($90,000) when you can buy a BENQ LK990 for only $8,000? And especially considering that the BENQ LK990 is also LASER light source, but both the SIM2 NERO4S amd SIM2 NERO4S DUO are lamp light source.



Hence, out of all projectors that currently incorporate this particular TI chipset, and taking into consideration both the strengths and weaknesses of the chipset versus value-for-money, without a doubt the BENQ LK990, costing only $8000, is the one to buy. All things considered you'd be nuts to consider buying a SIM2 NERO4S ($30,000), SIM2 NERO4S DUO ($60,000) or BARCO LOKI ($90,000) when you can have a BENQ LK990 for only $8000 :)



Precisely :)



And quite frankly it shows up the likes of the SIM2 NERO4S, SIM2 NERO4S DUO, and BARCO LOKI as being massively overpriced!



In fact, the BARCO LOKI has kinda already become long-in-the-tooth given you can now purchase a BARCO SP4K-12 for circa $50,000 which is almost half the price of the BARCO LOKI, and uses the new 0.98" Native 4K resolution 3-Chip DLP chipset, with 4-5 times the native ON/OFF contrast performance, 11,000 lumens light output, and a full RGB laser light source (Red, Green and Blue laser diodes) with reportedly 98.5% coverage of BT.2020 color gamut! It's also $10,000 cheaper than the SIM2 NERO4S DUO



:wink:
Yes I understood all that. Hence the reason I said:
I’m not sure how the LK990 got into this conversation, but I see your point and it makes sense.........


........Aside from this, the architecture, specifications and performance is the same, including both 500:1 - 800:1 native ON/OFF contrast and single-chip DLP (with RBE)......



:wink:

Good thing the LK990 measures above that at 1,000+:1. :)
 

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ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE AV
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Discussion Starter #210
Good thing the LK990 measures above that at 1,000+:1. :)
That's the native ON/OFF contrast performance of the projector including its lens and optical block... The native ON/OFF contrast performance of the chipset itself is 500:1 - 800:1 :)

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Well it's lucky that everyone's seating, and all their seating, is not more than 6-8 feet in front of their screen, isn't it?

Oh, wait... :p



:wink:
I completely agree. Resolution has taken on a life of its own spurred on by the "more is better" mentality.

If you're in the business and the market is saturated with 4K monitors it's time to put the hype into hyperdrive and push 8K like crazy, whether anyone actually needs it in a home environment or not. It's the nature of the beast.

The trick is to make people want it -- even if they know better.
 

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Discussion Starter #213
Looks like my seating position is right at the beginning of where 8k would be worth it, my second row is in the middle of where 4k is worth it. Hey , it's just me.
What about your third row? Where is that with respect to things? :)

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For 8k to be worth it there will need to be additional visible picture improvement such as HDR has been for 4k. After all won’t the production still be mostly shot in 2k with perhaps in time more shot in 4k?
 
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For 8k to be worth it there will need to be additional visible picture improvement such as HDR has been for 4k. After all won’t the production still be mostly shot in 2k with perhaps in time more shot in 4k?
Currently a lot of films are captured in more than 4K resolution. The bottleneck is partly in editing but mostly special effects. It takes time and serious horsepower to make all the effects shots in 4K or higher. But it can be done. Oh, and not a lot of cinemas have upgraded to 4K. They are still mostly 2K.
 

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In short, it is a 6000 lumens rated lamp-based projector, which uses the same TI 0.67” 4M-Pixel-Shift Resolution 1-Chip DMD DLP chipset as is found within the entry level OPTOMA and BENQ projectors.
Actually Sim2 has been using Delta platforms also used by Vivitek, as well as Coretronic. BenQ was the only one that had the big first generation 4K XPR Technology Coretronic platform, with a lamp, the original Philips HLD set, and later the blu-laser-phoshor light sourced version. Casio entered the large venue market with its 5000 lumens version. Acer was the first to market with its lamp based version.

In the commecial market both Barco and Christie have been selling 3DMD pixel shifting 4k projectors for a few years now, purely based on cost, same for the smaller single dmd units. But given the price premium in HT buying a commercial native 4K projector might not be that much more expensive. Some are even saying the SRX-R608 is giving the native 4K DLP projectors a good run for their money.
 

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I dunno, I almost get it and from me it gets an "it's a shame but... meh". Lumagen isn't just about UHD / BD discs, a lot of folk use them with TV boxes etc. At 60p you're not doing 10bit RGB on even 18G HDMI, so is it that much of a limitation? Probably better to use 4:2:2 12 bit for everything (which is what it does). Otherwise you're losing bit depth at 60p to transfer pixels you could have decoded at the other end becasue they weren't unique in the source to start with.

MadVR is coming from a different angle, where PC support for what really is the standard for UHD 4:2:2 has actually been the afterthought. If you're doing 4k60p and in RGB you'll be doing it at 8 bit unless it sports HDMI 2.1...

Of course this particular product is a bit of a special case, as you only need 1080p outputs, but Lumagen haven't allowed for that combo (I think the previous 1080p products did have high bit depth RGB out, I recall seeing a 36bpp RGB option). It might now be a choice and it might be a limitation of the chips used or how they are hooked up, someone would have to ask @jrp .

It's funny to think though; who would have thought we'd care about 1080p projectors in 2019?! :)
The norm for broadcast 4K is 10 bit 4:2:0, so 60P works on HDMI 2.0a/b's 18 gigabit/s limit. One of the initial chipset developer had 4:2:2 as an option in its set-tops it seeded the market with, but only on the output chip that created it from the 4:2:0 signal, as decoded by its HEVC decoder chip. There is no-one willing to pay the bandwidth cost for going over 10 Bit, all broadcasts are limited to 10 bit 4:2:0, so the TV-boxes users have no use for higher that would not carry over a single link.
 

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We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.
 
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