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We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.
Awesome Post - I love 3D on my OLED - but the screen is a Puny 65 inch - can't wait to have higher Lumen projectors out ... or the WALL ...and in your case to be able to get the pop close to HDR - I can only imagine.
3D is the best way to watch movies provided you can get he OLED punch.
 

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We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.
Given that entertainment area, looks like you have plenty to drink handy...:)
 

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A fascinating review and marvelous setup. I always appreciate the passion for this hobby at all levels. Question...I'm unclear are the movies normal 1080 bluerays or are the uhd 4k somehow unconverted for the wcg. I'm sure there is also a kaleidoscope in the mix.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

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We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.
3D is the only way to watch this title, it puts you right in the movie, hanging on the side of the mountain. I do not like heights, Brad had no remorse and turned on the Dbox system. I thought I was on a ride at Universal Studios :)
 

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Here's a link to an interesting discussion (with demos) about resolution and just how important (or not) it is once you are using HD or higher sources. Click on the top left and watch "one" and then "two".


http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/ResDemoPt2.html
Excellent post and discussion on Spacial Resolution. Nigels new measurements were very revealing regarding on screen contrast that went against the conventional wisdom that on/off was all that mattered. This piece has a similar revelation on spacial resolution.
 

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Excellent post and discussion on Spacial Resolution. Nigels new measurements were very revealing regarding on screen contrast that went against the conventional wisdom that on/off was all that mattered. This piece has a similar revelation on spacial resolution.
Apparently the above link was originally posted by Kris Deering, who in my opinion really knows his stuff. I found a reference to the link on another forum and thought it would be useful in understanding this thread -- why a 1080p projector can still be relevant.

Years ago I fed HD (1080p) to a low resolution digital projector, which would accept the HD signal and I was shocked at how good the image looked. This was high resolution material down scaled to a much lower resolution, yet the image looked like a HD image.

Using a 4K player I've played a 4K blu-ray down scaled to 1080p to my display and I think it looks slightly better than normal blu-ray.

I've also a been a big fan of 3D for the last decade or so. I've used Da-lite 2.8 gain High Power screens for years and this screen makes a big difference for opening up 3D and compensating for much of the light lost through the glasses. Bright, cross-talk free 3D is very impressive and can be highly immersive. Most people don't get to see it this way and walk away -- having seen it displayed in a light throttled way I'd also assume it's not worth the effort if I didn't know better.
 

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Apparently the above link was originally posted by Kris Deering, who in my opinion really knows his stuff. I found a reference to the link on another forum and thought it would be useful in understanding this thread -- why a 1080p projector can still be relevant.

Years ago I fed HD (1080p) to a low resolution digital projector, which would accept the HD signal and I was shocked at how good the image looked. This was high resolution material down scaled to a much lower resolution, yet the image looked like a HD image.

Using a 4K player I've played a 4K blu-ray down scaled to 1080p to my display and I think it looks slightly better than normal blu-ray.

I've also a been a big fan of 3D for the last decade or so. I've used Da-lite 2.8 gain High Power screens for years and this screen makes a big difference for opening up 3D and compensating for much of the light lost through the glasses. Bright, cross-talk free 3D is very impressive and can be highly immersive. Most people don't get to see it this way and walk away -- having seen it displayed in a light throttled way I'd also assume it's not worth the effort if I didn't know better.
I would agree that Kris is a real expert on video. I believe he has been collaborating with Nigel and is starting to use the onscreen contrast test highlighted at the start of this thread. As good as the UHD picture is on the Duo, I have to say almost everyone (including my whole family) prefers the 3D version of the movies. It throws a very bright 3D image on a 13ft wide screen. I've also used the Lumagen Darbee settings to increase the pop. Currently, I have a unigain AT weave screen. The two area's I will keep an eye on for improving the picture :
1) Future development on high quality AT weave(not micro perf) screens with higher gain.
2) Upscalling capabilities to upscale SDR to HDR with metedata and expanding 8bit to 10bit color

I believe these would yield real 3D picture improvement.
 

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Apparently the above link was originally posted by Kris Deering, who in my opinion really knows his stuff. I found a reference to the link on another forum and thought it would be useful in understanding this thread -- why a 1080p projector can still be relevant.

Years ago I fed HD (1080p) to a low resolution digital projector, which would accept the HD signal and I was shocked at how good the image looked. This was high resolution material down scaled to a much lower resolution, yet the image looked like a HD image.

Using a 4K player I've played a 4K blu-ray down scaled to 1080p to my display and I think it looks slightly better than normal blu-ray.

I've also a been a big fan of 3D for the last decade or so. I've used Da-lite 2.8 gain High Power screens for years and this screen makes a big difference for opening up 3D and compensating for much of the light lost through the glasses. Bright, cross-talk free 3D is very impressive and can be highly immersive. Most people don't get to see it this way and walk away -- having seen it displayed in a light throttled way I'd also assume it's not worth the effort if I didn't know better.
Yup, when the signal used and the signal captured end at the same point the contrast curve goes down to zero at the highest resolution. If you capture 8K and transmit/display 1080P the contrast at the maximum resolution displayed is much closer to 100%. Examples have been shown in almost every presentation by Mark Schubin. There have also tests to transmit HD as 540P,or 480P or something similar SD like and the let the display show it as HD, and the los was minimal, so at same bit rate the scaling exercise might come out ahead for using more bits per pixel, while the sharpness of the original material survived.

Hmm, I have noticed both ALR and AT screens gains going down for a while.
 

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We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger, Ghostbusters (2016). The special effects scenes were better than the UHD copy. The dynamic range of the lasers and glowing ghosts looked like HDR. We are both at the point where we would not choose to view UHD if 3D was an option. This started a discussion on how much better standard blu-ray looked on a high onscreen contrast display than UHD on the current crop of HT projectors. Apart from some reference scenes, it makes me wonder if we are being sold "watered down " HDR. In a way its not surprising. Alot of the initial Atmos and DTS:x mixes are underwhelming, just as they are starting to improve, hopefully, the UHD/HDR releases will follow suit.
 

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I can only imagine.
3D is the best way to watch movies provided you can get he OLED punch.
Indeed Ash. With or without the punch I am enjoying 3D.


We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger, Ghostbusters (2016). The special effects scenes were better than the UHD copy. The dynamic range of the lasers and glowing ghosts looked like HDR. We are both at the point where we would not choose to view UHD if 3D was an option. This started a discussion on how much better standard blu-ray looked on a high onscreen contrast display than UHD on the current crop of HT projectors. Apart from some reference scenes, it makes me wonder if we are being sold "watered down " HDR. In a way its not surprising. Alot of the initial Atmos and DTS:x mixes are underwhelming, just as they are starting to improve, hopefully, the UHD/HDR releases will follow suit.
Thanks for having me Brad. There is no other way to watch this than in 3D. You find yourself literally right in the movie dodging green slime and all. The SIM2 handled the neon colors with ease. The Trinnov + Alcons combination + HDR Duo = wow, what a system.
 

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Indeed Ash. With or without the punch I am enjoying 3D.




Thanks for having me Brad. There is no other way to watch this than in 3D. You find yourself literally right in the movie dodging green slime and all. The SIM2 handled the neon colors with ease. The Trinnov + Alcons combination + HDR Duo = wow, what a system.
OK. When I visit Mark Burnstein's I am bringing "Baywatch" and other beach fliks!!!! We'll see just how good 3D is. Mark, better get your 3D glasses ready for me!
 

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OK. When I visit Mark Burnstein's I am bringing "Baywatch" and other beach fliks!!!! We'll see just how good 3D is. Mark, better get your 3D glasses ready for me!
Steve, I heard you were invading Michigan. Maybe I can stop by and say hello. I've known you remotely for two decades, its about time. We will see.
 

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Steve, I heard you were invading Michigan. Maybe I can stop by and say hello. I've known you remotely for two decades, its about time. We will see.
That would be great! I'll let you know when I finalize my plans.:)
 
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Steve, I heard you were invading Michigan. Maybe I can stop by and say hello. I've known you remotely for two decades, its about time. We will see.
That would be great! I'll let you know when I finalize my plans.:)
Alan, turns out that thanks to schedules of my sisters in Minneapolis and then Mark Burnstein and his tedious work schedule that I'll first be in Minneapolis and then fly into Detroit August 22 for a few days. Mark said your plans are to be there like two weeks earlier for a day or two. Sounds like we will miss each other (unless your plans change - it would be fun to see you at work on Mark's Sim2 system!).
 

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In fact, the BARCO LOKI has kinda already become long-in-the-tooth given you can now purchase a BARCO SP4K-12 for circa $50,000 which is almost half the price of the BARCO LOKI, and uses the new 0.98" Native 4K resolution 3-Chip DLP chipset, with 4-5 times the native ON/OFF contrast performance, 11,000 lumens light output, and a full RGB laser light source (Red, Green and Blue laser diodes) with reportedly 98.5% coverage of BT.2020 color gamut! It's also $10,000 cheaper than the SIM2 NERO4S DUO

:wink:

I want the SP4K-12 for my HT! Does it have an HDMI input? Can do HDR10? Tone Mapping? Would it work in a HT without a projection booth?
 

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Discussion Starter #238 (Edited)
Hi folks,

Well I just heard some exciting news...

It is looking like SIM2 will have the HDR DUO PLUS on demo at CEDIA 2019 in Denver, which is in only 4 months time in September :)

So, any of fine gentlemen and ladies attending CEDIA this year should hopefully be able to check it out and see what all the fuss is about.

:wink:
Great news!! Mark Burnstein keeps wanting me to go WAY up to Michigan so I can blow his Sim2 Duo bulbs out (by watching too much video). Now I can see the DUO Plus a cheap and short air hop from Phoenix to [email protected]@@
Arrow that is in fact wonderful news!! I will be there and will MOST DEFINITELY demo the HDR DUO PLUS. I can't wait!:D
Disappointingly SIM2 will NOT in fact be demoing the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at CEDIA this year. In short, it was too late for them to organize in time this year, so hopefully they will do so at a future trade show.

That said however, I will personally be visiting Florida again very shortly after CEDIA, including to see my good friend @Alan Gouger, and Brad @Lasalle has been kind enough to allow Alan and I to arrange for some of the fine gentlemen and ladies who populate this forum, who are interested, to come an experience the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at his awesome kickass shiny new home theater that also features a Trinnov Alcons audio system to boot, which is located within easy access from Tampa Airport. We are talking circa 3rd or 4th week of September and as soon as I have a definitive date I will be sure to let everyone know.

Folks who are interested in attending please kindly post your interest here. You will get to meet Alan Gouger and myself, as well as of course Brad, and experience the awesomeness of Brad's very high-end home theater. Extreme levels of fun are guaranteed :)

:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #239 (Edited)
I want the SP4K-12 for my HT! Does it have an HDMI input? Can do HDR10? Tone Mapping? Would it work in a HT without a projection booth?
Are you sure?

Whilst the new Barco Series 4 projectors have many advantages they still are afflicted with the same Achilles Heal namely a rubbish black floor, very poor contrast performance with respect to low ADL content and low dynamic range, meaning that the black levels and HDR performance will be terrible. You can't have good HIGH dynamic range (HDR) performance with a projector that is LOW dynamic range. Period.

Whilst the new chipset is a considerable improvement as compared with the existing TI chipsets that have only circa 500 - 800:1 native ON/OFF contrast performance, in itself the contrast and dynamic range performance is still nowhere near good enough. Which is why the likes of what SIM2 has done with the HDR DUO PLUS, namely employ multiple methods in combination to boost contrast and dynamic range performance, is all important

Sorry, but I cannot recommend the new Barco Series 4 projectors for high-end home theater usage.

That said, Barco has a new range of projectors in the pipeline which will be featuring their new patented potentially revolutionary 'Light Steering' technology, which has the potential to significantly increase contrast and dynamic range performance, whilst also consequentially yielding superior HDR performance as well. These are most certainly worth keeping an eye out for. Although the jury is out with respect to what extent this will in reality improve performance; in particular with respect to the peak ON/OFF contrast performance and black floor. Whilst the technology has the potential to increase the low ADL contrast word has it that Barco being Barco are focusing on increasing the luminance dynamic range towards the top end, namely the white level, so it might be the case that the initial range does not exploit the full potential of the technology. I will be evaluating these as and when.

But as of right now if you want the best HDR performance in the world from a projector it's the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS and the shortly to be released CHRISTIE ECLIPSE :)

:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #240 (Edited)
Nigels new measurements were very revealing regarding on screen contrast that went against the conventional wisdom that on/off was all that mattered.
Credit where credit is due... It was in fact @Soulnight namely Florian and Anna of ProjectionDream who originally developed the measuring of ADL contrast HERE: http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-brightness-adl-contrast-measurements/.

This was/is limited to measuring solely the NATIVE contrast performance, because the corresponding ADL contrast test patterns used do not encapsulate the effects of DYNAMIC contrast functionality with respect to gamma modulation because the test patterns are black and white.

I will take the credit for taking things to the next level by developing the method, including accompanying set of test patterns that incorporate grayscale, which is used to measure (for the first time ever) DYNAMIC contrast throughout the full range of 0% - 50% ADL, following an invaluable conversion with Florian regarding how best to go about doing so.

Consequently, for the first time we are now able to measure the full range of contrast performance including dynamic contrast functionality through the range 0% - 50% ADL wherein video content resides :)

I would agree that Kris is a real expert on video. I believe he has been collaborating with Nigel and is starting to use the onscreen contrast test highlighted at the start of this thread... Interesting, Kris Deering is now using the same onscreen contrast measurement (1-20% ADL) for his reviews in Sound and Vision. I believe this a a real step forward in projector reviews.
Yes, and it has been a pleasure working together with Kris with respect to this.

Kris by the way is the one who discovered the importance of taking the additional ON/OFF contrast measurement that replaces the full field black test pattern with single white pixel against full field black for both Native ON/OFF and Dynamic ON/OFF contrast measurements. Logic dictates that with the Native ON/OFF contrast measurements the measurements when using full field black and single white pixel should be the same, because there should be no shutting off of the light engine in response to full field black. However, by adding this measurement Kris discovered that the newer model SONY projectors for example measure lower ON/OFF with the single white pixel when measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast, meaning that there is some jiggery-pokery shutting off of the light engine going on to boost the Native ON/OFF contrast measurement for marketing benefits. In other words, anyone measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast using a full field black test pattern will get an artificially boosted measurement; whereas the true performance is the measurement using the single white pixel, as this defeats the triggering of the partial shutting off of the light engine in response to a full field black video signal. Consequently, I incorporated the single white pixel measurement. And credit for this goes to Kris :)

:wink:
 
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