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Disappointingly SIM2 will NOT in fact be demoing the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at CEDIA this year. In short, it was too late for them to organize in time this year, so hopefully they will do so at a future trade show.

That said however, I will personally be visiting Florida again very shortly after CEDIA, including to see my good friend @Alan Gouger, and Brad @Lasalle has been kind enough to allow Alan and I to arrange for some of the fine gentlemen and ladies who populate this forum, who are interested, to come an experience the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at his awesome kickass shiny new home theater that also features a Trinnov Alcons audio system to boot, which is located within easy access from Tampa Airport. We are talking circa 3rd or 4th week of September and as soon as I have a definitive date I will be sure to let everyone know.

Folks who are interested in attending please kindly post your interest here. You will get to meet Alan Gouger and myself, as well as of course Brad, and experience the awesomeness of Brad's very high-end home theater. Extreme levels of fun are guaranteed :)

:wink:
ARROW-AV,

I would certainly be interested in attending as I live in Lakewood Ranch, Fl. Please keep me posted.

Kim
 

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I wish I could be there! But in a few weeks I will be at Mark Burnstein's and see his Sim2 Duo Plus setup, assuming Alan Gouger has made it there by then to tweak it to its full potential!!!
 

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Yes, and it has been a pleasure working together with Kris with respect to this.

Kris by the way is the one who discovered the importance of taking the additional ON/OFF contrast measurement that replaces the full field black test pattern with single white pixel against full field black for both Native ON/OFF and Dynamic ON/OFF contrast measurements. Logic dictates that with the Native ON/OFF contrast measurements the measurements when using full field black and single white pixel should be the same, because there should be no shutting off of the light engine in response to full field black. However, by adding this measurement Kris discovered that the newer model SONY projectors for example measure lower ON/OFF with the single white pixel when measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast, meaning that there is some jiggery-pokery shutting off of the light engine going on to boost the Native ON/OFF contrast measurement for marketing benefits. In other words, anyone measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast using a full field black test pattern will get an artificially boosted measurement; whereas the true performance is the measurement using the single white pixel, as this defeats the triggering of the partial shutting off of the light engine in response to a full field black video signal. Consequently, I incorporated the single white pixel measurement. And credit for this goes to Kris :)

:wink:
Did Kris say he discovered this?

He may have used the single white pixel in this application, but TSE told me about this almost a decade ago. Back when VDC first received their LED DLPs, I asked TSE what he thought about their on/off cr performance. He said it was great, because they could shut the LEDs off. He then said to get the true on/off cr one needed to put a single white pixel on the screen to turn on the LEDs. I don't recall if he came up with the idea or if it was someone else at VDC. I know I discussed it with Darin.
 

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Discussion Starter #245 (Edited)
Did Kris say he discovered this?

He may have used the single white pixel in this application, but TSE told me about this almost a decade ago. Back when VDC first received their LED DLPs, I asked TSE what he thought about their on/off cr performance. He said it was great, because they could shut the LEDs off. He then said to get the true on/off cr one needed to put a single white pixel on the screen to turn on the LEDs. I don't recall if he came up with the idea or if it was someone else at VDC. I know I discussed it with Darin.
Is that with respect to the NATIVE On/Off contrast measurement though? Namely the mode that is not supposed to employ full fade to black or any shutting off of the light engine whatosever in response to a full field black? I am not referring to measuring the PEAK On/Off contrast performance, which will potentially include dynamic contrast functionality and/or fade to black.

Either way, Kris did not claim to discover this; he simply reported that he had discovered the jiggery pokery that the SONY projectors employ to inflate the measured and reported native ON/OFF contrast performance in this regard and I assumed he had been the one to discover it. So if it was someone else prior to this then my bad! :)

:wink:
 

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Is that with respect to the NATIVE On/Off contrast measurement though? Namely the mode that is not supposed to employ full fade to black or any shutting off of the light engine whatosever in response to a full field black? I am not referring to measuring the PEAK On/Off contrast performance, which will potentially include dynamic contrast functionality and/or fade to black.
Yes, it was. Remember this was a decade ago. Still TSE was the first that I know of to say illuminate a single white pixel. Probably pretty obvious now.

Either way, Kris did not claim to discover this; he simply reported that he had discovered the jiggery pokery that the SONY projectors employ to inflate the measured and reported native ON/OFF contrast performance in this regard and I assumed he had been the one to discover it. So if it was someone else prior to this then my bad! :)

:wink:
OK, I just believe in giving credit where credit is due.
 

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Discussion Starter #247
Yes, it was. Remember this was a decade ago. Still TSE was the first that I know of to say illuminate a single white pixel. Probably pretty obvious now.
Well, I wasn't on this forum, a decade ago, so you will have to please excuse me for missing that! ;) :p

OK, I just believe in giving credit where credit is due.
So do I, hence the reason for my post :)

Kris is still the first person who spotted that both the SONY 995/870ES and 885/760ES are using jiggery pokery to artificially inflate the native ON/OFF contrast measurements. So we can give him the credit for discovering that, if not the concept of using single white pixel when measuring native ON/OFF contrast. Or did TSE discover this also?

:wink:
 

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An alternative view of Sony's performance on the basis of the single pixel test as I understand it stands (single full brightness pixel?) would be that they've implemented an accurate non-defeatable dynamic dimming system. In such a system, if you want to represent that full white pixel as intended the only option is to not dim the laser. So going from dimmed to not dimmed would be a legitimate choice.

What would be interesting to test that theory additionally would be single pixel tests at levels from 10-90%, seeing if the black floor raises slowly between the levels - or whether the black floor only has two steps (slightly dimmed and not dimmed). Has anyone done that? I'm not sure I recall seeing it if so.

I actually think the above would be a better strategy than JVC use for their dynamic iris / dimming algorithm, as they disregard the gamma curve of the original content on the basis of how many pixels there are on screen above a certain level, leading to all manner of unintended artefacts. I can't use the DI algos because the gamma fiddling is way too obvious to me, but a laser dimming that behaved as described would work be undetectable (though of course can't achieve such high "gains" in contrast - because a single pixel is enough to stop it dimming).
 

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Disappointingly SIM2 will NOT in fact be demoing the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at CEDIA this year. In short, it was too late for them to organize in time this year, so hopefully they will do so at a future trade show.

That said however, I will personally be visiting Florida again very shortly after CEDIA, including to see my good friend @Alan Gouger, and Brad @Lasalle has been kind enough to allow Alan and I to arrange for some of the fine gentlemen and ladies who populate this forum, who are interested, to come an experience the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at his awesome kickass shiny new home theater that also features a Trinnov Alcons audio system to boot, which is located within easy access from Tampa Airport. We are talking circa 3rd or 4th week of September and as soon as I have a definitive date I will be sure to let everyone know.

Folks who are interested in attending please kindly post your interest here. You will get to meet Alan Gouger and myself, as well as of course Brad, and experience the awesomeness of Brad's very high-end home theater. Extreme levels of fun are guaranteed :)

:wink:
Thanks for the heads-up @ARROW-AV, that is indeed disappointing. But on the bright side thats one less thing I have to hunt down at the show lol!

That is very kind of Brad! I wish I could make it!
 
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Discussion Starter #250 (Edited)
An alternative view of Sony's performance on the basis of the single pixel test as I understand it stands (single full brightness pixel?) would be that they've implemented an accurate non-defeatable dynamic dimming system. In such a system, if you want to represent that full white pixel as intended the only option is to not dim the laser. So going from dimmed to not dimmed would be a legitimate choice.

What would be interesting to test that theory additionally would be single pixel tests at levels from 10-90%, seeing if the black floor raises slowly between the levels - or whether the black floor only has two steps (slightly dimmed and not dimmed). Has anyone done that? I'm not sure I recall seeing it if so.

I actually think the above would be a better strategy than JVC use for their dynamic iris / dimming algorithm, as they disregard the gamma curve of the original content on the basis of how many pixels there are on screen above a certain level, leading to all manner of unintended artefacts. I can't use the DI algos because the gamma fiddling is way too obvious to me, but a laser dimming that behaved as described would work be undetectable (though of course can't achieve such high "gains" in contrast - because a single pixel is enough to stop it dimming).
Sorry but I have to disagree on this one :)

You are drawing conclusions without actually knowing what the data is. Wherein, the fact of the matter is that the increase in ON/OFF measurement is only slight to the extent that it's probably below the limit of HVP. In other words, nobody will likely be able to actually perceive any difference with respect to performance, but it makes the native ON/OFF contrast measurement appear better on paper. If SONY were to be doing what you say then a more significant difference that actually translates into perceivable difference in performance would be implemented. Wouldn't it? But that is not the situation here.

Furthermore, it is highly convenient that the newer more expensive SONY 995ES measured Native ON/OFF slightly higher than the less expensive pre-existing model 885ES...

**BUT** with single white pixel used for measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast, which reveals the TRUE performance it actually measured slightly lower, as in worse.

Coincidence? ;)

Also, for what it's worth, I have indeed tried using varying grayscale for the single pixel and there is ZERO difference. Whether it is a black or gray pixel the single pixel defeats the partial shutting off of the light engine irrespective of the IRE; and the measurements are the same.

So, the only time that the non-perceivable slight increase in ON/OFF contrast measurement occurs is when measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast using the method that all professional reviewers use, which subsequently will influence the figure that they report in their reviews. With a difference that does not correspond to an actual significant perceivable difference in performance, but looks good on paper.

Hence my conclusion.

So, sorry I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one James. It's jiggery pokery for marketing purposes :)

:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #251
Thanks for the heads-up @ARROW-AV, that is indeed disappointing. But on the bright side thats one less thing I have to hunt down at the show lol!

That is very kind of Brad! I wish I could make it!
Well, I am still looking forward to meeting you anyway :)

And yes, it is indeed very kind of Brad!

:wink:
 

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Sorry but I have to disagree on this one :)

You are drawing conclusions without actually knowing what the data is. Wherein, the fact of the matter is that the increase in ON/OFF measurement is only slight to the extent that it's probably below the limit of HVP. In other words, nobody will likely be able to actually perceive any difference with respect to performance, but it makes the native ON/OFF contrast measurement appear better on paper. If SONY were to be doing what you say then a more significant difference that actually translates into perceivable difference in performance would be implemented. Wouldn't it? But that is not the situation here.

Furthermore, it is highly convenient that the newer more expensive SONY 995ES measured Native ON/OFF slightly higher than the less expensive pre-existing model 885ES...

**BUT** with single white pixel used for measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast, which reveals the TRUE performance it actually measured slightly lower, as in worse.

Coincidence? ;)

Also, for what it's worth, I have indeed tried using varying grayscale for the single pixel and there is ZERO difference. Whether it is a black or gray pixel the single pixel defeats the partial shutting off of the light engine irrespective of the IRE; and the measurements are the same.

So, the only time that the non-perceivable slight increase in ON/OFF contrast measurement occurs is when measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast using the method that all professional reviewers use, which subsequently will influence the figure that they report in their reviews. With a difference that does not correspond to an actual significant perceivable difference in performance, but looks good on paper.

Hence my conclusion.

So, sorry I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one James. It's jiggery pokery for marketing purposes :)
If you've done the test then you have result, I hadn't seen single pixel grey results quoted anywhere. The results I saw from Kris for the 995ES vs 885ES were slightly better for the new unit, not worse, so perhaps this is in the noise of sample variation in terms of which has better native.

I'd be hesitant to tar Sony with VW's brush on this as folk reviewing this stuff are smart enough to spot things, and Sony don't actually publish native contrast specs. It is a high risk low gain play. Anyway, we'll never know for sure I guess... :)

Out of interest, with a typical "black" scene cut frame in a movie freeze framed does this dimming happen? I guess not from what you're saying about the IRE levels (given it would be unusual for the frame to end up completely black after editing and encoding).
 

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Discussion Starter #253
If you've done the test then you have result, I hadn't seen single pixel grey results quoted anywhere.
That's because I never published that particular data. I carried out the exercise in fact to ascertain whether there was an instance wherein a grayscale pixel did not trigger the partial shutting off of the light engine, so I was carrying out the evaluation and measurements for a different reason, but carried them out nonetheless and like I said there is no difference :)

The results I saw from Kris for the 995ES vs 885ES were slightly better for the new unit, not worse, so perhaps this is in the noise of sample variation in terms of which has better native.
The units Kris first measured had the 995ES 1 pixel measurement being slightly worse than the 885ES. He shared the data with me because this was during time wherein I was showing him how to take the full range of ADL contrast measurements and he helped tweak my measurements spreadsheet including adding in the pixel pixel measurement. The latter measurements he subsequently posted has them almost the same with the 995ES at 12,000:1 and 885ES at 10,833:1 for the single pixel, but the Native ON/OFF has the 995ES at 16,400:1 versus the 885ES at 12,381:1 which is a much more 'impressive' difference. Furthermore, Kris' measurements for 1% - 20% ADL are almost identical for both the 995ES and 885ES. The only significant difference is the Native ON/OFF contrast measurement using full field black, which is inflated to make the 995ES appear to have higher Native ON/OFF contrast performance as compared with the 885ES than it actually does in reality.

I'd be hesitant to tar Sony with VW's brush on this as folk reviewing this stuff are smart enough to spot things, and Sony don't actually publish native contrast specs. It is a high risk low gain play. Anyway, we'll never know for sure I guess... :)
Firstly, don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE fan of SONY. All of my TVs are SONY and I personally owned a SONY 1100ES projector for 5 years. Secondly, sorry but none of the other reviewers spotted this. And whilst SONY don't actually publish native contrast specs they know most of the reviewers will be doing so. You are right we will never know for sure but is sure is fishy and I don't believe in highly convenient coincidences.

Out of interest, with a typical "black" scene cut frame in a movie freeze framed does this dimming happen? I guess not from what you're saying about the IRE levels (given it would be unusual for the frame to end up completely black after editing and encoding).
Do you mean a full field black video signal? If so, then yes. In short, in response to a full field black there is this very slight shutting off of the light engine, but with all video content including single pixel there is not.

If this was for performance then it would shut off the light engine more such that a significant improvement in black level is perceived but this is not what happens. The difference whilst measurable, is not really perceivable. Hence why do it? Because it looks good on paper that's why :)

:wink:
 

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Well, I am still looking forward to meeting you anyway :)

And yes, it is indeed very kind of Brad!

:wink:

Absolutely @ARROW-AV! Pardon my manners. I am extremely excited to meet you Nigel as well as others ive chatted with on here. Ill be the big guy with tattoos and Ill more then likely be wearing a Manchester United top as I love Premier League football almost as much as I love home theater and cinema. Its a dead heat actually lol.:D
 
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Discussion Starter #255
Hi folks,

So I mentioned prior to the Holidays that I would be personally visiting Florida again to see my good friend @Alan Gouger, and Brad @Lasalle has been kind enough to allow Alan and I to arrange for some of the fine gentlemen and ladies who populate this forum, who are interested, to come an experience the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at his awesome kickass home theater, which is located at Lakewood Ranch in Sarasota, within easy access from Tampa Airport.

Well we now have a confirmed date when this is going to happen, namely SUNDAY 1ST MARCH :)

You will get to meet Alan Gouger and myself, as well as of course Brad. This is a very rare opportunity to be able to see a demo of the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS in all of its majestic glory. The video performance is simply extraordinary and really has to be seen to be believed. You will also get to experience the awesomeness of Brad's very high-end home theater.

Extreme levels of fun are guaranteed ;)

Folks who are interested in attending please kindly post your interest here.

Previously, @kimg1453 and @Brucemck2 expressed an interest in attending. Are you guys still interested in attending and can you make the aforementioned date? :)
.
 

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Hi folks,

So I mentioned prior to the Holidays that I would be personally visiting Florida again to see my good friend @Alan Gouger, and Brad @Lasalle has been kind enough to allow Alan and I to arrange for some of the fine gentlemen and ladies who populate this forum, who are interested, to come an experience the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at his awesome kickass home theater, which is located at Lakewood Ranch in Sarasota, within easy access from Tampa Airport.

Well we now have a confirmed date when this is going to happen, namely SUNDAY 1ST MARCH :)

You will get to meet Alan Gouger and myself, as well as of course Brad. This is a very rare opportunity to be able to see a demo of the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS in all of its majestic glory. The video performance is simply extraordinary and really has to be seen to be believed. You will also get to experience the awesomeness of Brad's very high-end home theater.

Extreme levels of fun are guaranteed ;)

Folks who are interested in attending please kindly post your interest here.

Previously, @kimg1453 and @Brucemck2 expressed an interest in attending. Are you guys still interested in attending and can you make the aforementioned date? :)
.
ARROW-AV,

Yes, I would very much like to attend as I'm right around the corner from Brad.

Thanks, Kim Greene
 

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Alan has also improved and simplified my video chain. By replacing the Gefen HDMI splitter with a matrix-works G802 he was also able to eliminate the HD-Fury Vertex from the chain. The G802 has amazing convergence capability for the 2 projectors, it also has better 4K>2K downscaling. The new video chain: Source>Lumagen>G803>Sim2 Projectors.
 

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Alan has also improved and simplified my video chain. By replacing the Gefen HDMI splitter with a matrix-works G802 he was also able to eliminate the HD-Fury Vertex from the chain. The G802 has amazing convergence capability for the 2 projectors, it also has better 4K>2K downscaling.
Out of interest, why is that useful or necessary? Does it turn out that there is drift over time between the units after all?

Achieving and maintaining the perfect stacking and overlapping of two projectors is not an easy task. SIM2’s answer to this was to develop a mechanical platform equipped with micrometric adjustments in all 6 axes (x, y, z, and pitch, yaw and roll).

Furthermore, special attention has been paid to the thermal stability of the system, wherein there is no drift whatsoever with respect to the lens positions over time and with differing temperatures.

The result is two precisely superimposed projected images that are completely stable and remain as such over time.
 

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Out of interest, why is that useful or necessary? Does it turn out that there is drift over time between the units after all?
There was no drift in the units at all. The mechanical alignment was very good but in the left corners there was a very sight shadow noticeable with small projected numbers (viewing at close range). The box allows you to go zone by zone and optimize alignment at a very detailed level. If I had to guess the mechanical alignment nailed 85-95% of the pixels, The G802 brought in the rest. The picture seemed very sharp before the G802 in normal viewing, but the 802 does seem to have increased the overall PQ (could be a combination of better alignment, better 4K>2K, and one less device in the chain). Also as mentioned, it also has an excellent downscaller 4K>2K which allowed us to eliminate the Vertex.

Edit: I should note Alan is a perfectionists, he noticed the slight corner shadow on my movie poster wall (about 60 movie posters per screen).
 

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There was no drift in the units at all. The mechanical alignment was very good but in the left corners there was a very sight shadow noticeable with small projected numbers (viewing at close range). The box allows you to go zone by zone and optimize alignment at a very detailed level. If I had to guess the mechanical alignment nailed 85-95% of the pixels, The G802 brought in the rest. The picture seemed very sharp before the G802 in normal viewing, but the 802 does seem to have increased the overall PQ (could be a combination of better alignment, better 4K>2K, and one less device in the chain). Also as mentioned, it also has an excellent downscaller 4K>2K which allowed us to eliminate the Vertex.
OK, I wasn't aware it wasn't spot-on with the controls available. Sounds like a good solution anyway.
 
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