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Point me in the direction of a 4K Laser Projector that delivers at least the same performance for less than $100,000 please :)
It simply means when I buy a new projector it must be 4K and laser/LED. It does not mean this one is not probably the apex of 1080p solutions. 1080p solutions are not acceptable to me anymore independent of image quality since I have moved on to 4K with the kind of image quality I really can live with till better gets affordable. That this 1080p is also a lot more expensive does not help. Other people's mileage may vary. I hope these are at least 3 chippers. Otherwise it would be even more a no go since I see rainbows on all one chippers (lamp based anyway).
 

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Discussion Starter #42 (Edited)
That was my original position and I went to great lengths to find a 4K laser solution that matched the Duo, I completely failed at that.
I have found that the current crop of 4K chips and lasers are challenged in the areas of contrast and color balance.
We had quite a detailed discussion about this a while back in the original Duo thread : https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/2857186-sim2-duo.html
Absolutely agree :)

The new Christie sounds like it may be the exception, but cost, size and required support infrastructure make it impractical for most HT’s.
The new Christie is most certainly the exception :)

However, comparing it with the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS is kinda comparing apples vs oranges; because, it's a different price point (twice the price), a different light output category (15,000 / 30,000 lumens), and where the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS is extremely compact design with very silent operating noise levels so highly suited to installing into both existing and new home theater rooms into the room itself, the Christie is huge and loud and really needs a dedicated projection room.

As such the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS and the Christie are two different products at different price points for different applications.

If you want the best video performance then without a doubt the Christie wins, but as my review demonstrates, with the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS you get a big chunk of the performance of the Christie at a fraction of the price, and it is suitable for installation into home theater rooms themselves wherein the Christie is not

However, the Christie provides superior video performance in more ways than one, but it is more expensive; so in this regard you get what you pay for

Either way, the both of these projectors offer what is without a doubt the best video performance of any video projector in the world as of right now. Period :)

:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #43 (Edited)
It simply means when I buy a new projector it must be 4K and laser/LED. It does not mean this one is not probably the apex of 1080p solutions. 1080p solutions are not acceptable to me anymore independent of image quality since I have moved on to 4K with the kind of image quality I really can live with till better gets affordable. That this 1080p is also a lot more expensive does not help. Other people's mileage may vary. I hope these are at least 3 chippers. Otherwise it would be even more a no go since I see rainbows on all one chippers (lamp based anyway).
Yes the HDR DUO PLUS is 3-Chip DLP. There are no rainbows whatsoever.

My point is that I also don't think you should dismiss such a projector sight unseen. Because if you were to see the performance of this thing, I think you will be extremely surprised at just how good the video performance actually is, and despite the fact that it is technically HD 1080p resolution and the light source is lamp :)

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that in a blind test you would rank all existing 4K laser projectors (Christie excluded) lower in video performance.

So just to be clear, by stipulating that a projector must be 4K and laser/LED you won't be achieving anything like the best video performance, unless you opt for the new Christie.

It's not like there's an abundence of 4K laser projectors with at least the same contrast, color performance, HDR dynamic range, and usable light output is there? Let alone perfect RGB convergence, perfect uniformity, zero chromatic aberration, zero video noise, silent operation at 3800 - 6500 lumens light output, and compact design to boot... In fact, Christie excluded, I challenge you to name one single 4K laser projector that does :)

:wink:
 

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The Lumagen spits out 8bit in RGB? Yikes! Very interesting! I did not know this! :)

Wow, that's a serious limitation of the Lumagen PRO! Kinda crazy with the cost of the Lumagen PRO you have to piggy back an HD-Fury Vertex to fix such a limitation but there you go! :eek:

Mmmmm... Let's hope the MadVR ENVY handles 10Bit color properly in this regard unlike the Lumagen PRO, eh? I have a sneaking suspicion that it will ;) :D
I dunno, I almost get it and from me it gets an "it's a shame but... meh". Lumagen isn't just about UHD / BD discs, a lot of folk use them with TV boxes etc. At 60p you're not doing 10bit RGB on even 18G HDMI, so is it that much of a limitation? Probably better to use 4:2:2 12 bit for everything (which is what it does). Otherwise you're losing bit depth at 60p to transfer pixels you could have decoded at the other end becasue they weren't unique in the source to start with.

MadVR is coming from a different angle, where PC support for what really is the standard for UHD 4:2:2 has actually been the afterthought. If you're doing 4k60p and in RGB you'll be doing it at 8 bit unless it sports HDMI 2.1...

Of course this particular product is a bit of a special case, as you only need 1080p outputs, but Lumagen haven't allowed for that combo (I think the previous 1080p products did have high bit depth RGB out, I recall seeing a 36bpp RGB option). It might now be a choice and it might be a limitation of the chips used or how they are hooked up, someone would have to ask @jrp .

It's funny to think though; who would have thought we'd care about 1080p projectors in 2019?! :)
 

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Yes the HDR DUO PLUS is 3-Chip DLP. There are no rainbows whatsoever.



My point is that I also don't think you should dismiss such a projector sight unseen. Because if you were to see the performance of this thing, I think you will be extremely surprised at just how good the video performance actually is, and despite the fact that it is technically HD 1080p resolution and the light source is lamp :)



In fact, I'd be willing to bet that in a blind test you would rank all existing 4K laser projectors (Christie excluded) lower in video performance.



So just to be clear, by stipulating that a projector must be 4K and laser/LED you won't be achieving anything like the best video performance, unless you opt for the new Christie.



It's not like there's an abundence of 4K laser projectors with at least the same contrast, color performance, HDR dynamic range, and usable light output is there? Let alone perfect RGB convergence, perfect uniformity, zero chromatic aberration, zero video noise, silent operation at 3800 - 6500 lumens light output, and compact design to boot... In fact, Christie excluded, I challenge you to name one single 4K laser projector that does :)



:wink:


Nigel what about a stack of 5000s? Curious as to your thoughts. Thanks


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No 4K, no laser, no go.
I could almost overlook the laser being absent but there is just something more relaxing to our eyes when not using a lamp based projector. As for not being 4K I am curious why they wouldn’t? It’s going to be 2020 before we know it and with 8K panels emerging it is already two steps behind out of the gate...
 
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I could almost overlook the laser being absent but there is just something more relaxing to our eyes when not using a lamp based projector. As for not being 4K I am curious why they wouldn’t? It’s going to be 2020 before we know it and with 8K panels emerging it is already two steps behind out of the gate...
I wonder if having several lamps in action aimed at the screen simultaneously minimizes the typical UHP lamp flicker? Might stand to some kind of reason.
 

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The 995 stacking was suppose to be different then just regular stacking to gain light output. Although Nigel pointed out their math problem lol, wonder if they ever even implemented or purely marketing?

I snapped this picture during the demo.... :eek:

 

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Absolutely agree :)


The new Christie is most certainly the exception :)


:wink:
I know your measurements are spot on and have had enough joint viewing sessions to know we share similar video performance objectives, but I am reluctant to make absolute statements on a product I have not actually seen.

There are two area's I would focus on (given the context of all the measurements you have published):

The first is color balance. Its clear the color extension is extraordinary, well up into REC 2020 and exceeding readily available content, that does not necessarily translate to balance. It can be spectacular to view but may also lack the richness of balanced saturation. Given its 3P not 6P, I would want to
see it, especially in the rich green's. Even in some of the 6P's I've seen design choices have been made to boost overall light output with a lighter green.

The second would be to gage (subjectively) the marginal impact of the increased dynamic range in the low ADL region (1-5%) while viewing larger sections of normal HDR content. Specifically 3D depth of picture (from the screen back) and color pop along with associated HDR pop (ie Wonder Woman's lasso of truth or Life of Pie water scene). I have a subjective reference on the difference between the Duo and the current 4K laser's, but have no reference on numbers beyond the Duo.

As an aside, the efficiency of the Duo design is truly remarkable. All the other high contrast designs I'm aware of consume vast amounts of energy and throw away a lot of light. With two 350 watt bulbs the Duo was brighter than the modified Barco with a 3500 watt bulb (and produced significantly better contrast). The high contrast Christie's laser modules are rated at 50% of the output of the regular Christie and its design achieves its HDR performance by completely shutting off pixels, eliminating any dimmed light that may be in the content.

The Christie is probably the current "Holy Grail" maybe one day I'll get a chance to see it.
 

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Double stack, only FullHD, Four LAMPS, Lumagen needed, probably ridicilously expensive --> Doesn't sound too good

I would rather stack two RS2000/NX7 for a fraction of the price, and brightness would be almost the same. Then wait for something better with 4K and lasers/leds and good contrast.

Lähetetty minun SM-G930F laitteesta Tapatalkilla
I had assumed that it's 2 lamps in total - 1 per projector, rather than 4? Is that right?
 

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Discussion Starter #51
I know your measurements are spot on and have had enough joint viewing sessions to know we share similar video performance objectives, but I am reluctant to make absolute statements on a product I have not actually seen.

There are two area's I would focus on (given the context of all the measurements you have published):

The first is color balance. Its clear the color extension is extraordinary, well up into REC 2020 and exceeding readily available content, that does not necessarily translate to balance. It can be spectacular to view but may also lack the richness of balanced saturation. Given its 3P not 6P, I would want to
see it, especially in the rich green's. Even in some of the 6P's I've seen design choices have been made to boost overall light output with a lighter green.

The second would be to gage (subjectively) the marginal impact of the increased dynamic range in the low ADL region (1-5%) while viewing larger sections of normal HDR content. Specifically 3D depth of picture (from the screen back) and color pop along with associated HDR pop (ie Wonder Woman's lasso of truth or Life of Pie water scene). I have a subjective reference on the difference between the Duo and the current 4K laser's, but have no reference on numbers beyond the Duo.

As an aside, the efficiency of the Duo design is truly remarkable. All the other high contrast designs I'm aware of consume vast amounts of energy and throw away a lot of light. With two 350 watt bulbs the Duo was brighter than the modified Barco with a 3500 watt bulb (and produced significantly better contrast). The high contrast Christie's laser modules are rated at 50% of the output of the regular Christie and its design achieves its HDR performance by completely shutting off pixels, eliminating any dimmed light that may be in the content.

The Christie is probably the current "Holy Grail" maybe one day I'll get a chance to see it.
I liken comparing the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS to the Christie as being akin to comparing the Lamborghini Aventador with the Bugatti Divo, in that both are extremely high performance, but the latter is more expensive and delivers superior performance accordingly. Wherein, the former might have lesser older single-clutch transmission (HD resolution) but all things considered because it excels in all the other aspects this really doesn't matter and overall performance significantly beats the competition :)

Regarding the Christie, it really is the ultimate and the reference standard against which all other projectors should be compared. As far as video performance is concerned there is absolutely zero doubt that the Christie delivers superior performance and in more ways than one. However, like I have said, it's twice the price, but you do get what you pay for in this regard. And what is clear from my analysis of the HDR DUO PLUS is that it provides a big chunk of the performance of the Christie at circa half the price.

As far as color is concerned you need to forget about the whole 3P 6P aspect, that's a Red Herring; it boils down to laser modules wavelength, where the fact of the matter is you can have 100% of BT.2020 if you like; Christie will simply select laser modules accordingly. Same goes for green. Wherein, my measurements were simply of the prototype demo unit and by no means its limitation.

Regarding contrast and black levels it is the range 0% - 2% ADL in particular wherein you will most notice the difference between the Christie and the SIM2. Where it is within the range 0% - 1% that the SIM2 shows its limited ON/OFF which is why INTERSTELLAR 00:53:30 (= 0.18% ADL) scored 80 whereas the Christie nails a perfect 100 score. But this is hardly surprising given we are talking ON/OFF contrast measurments of 28,600:1 versus 21.2 MILLION:1 ! So with the Christie you get OLED performance down to 4 pixels, but you don't with the SIM2... BUT the SIM2's contrast performance from 0.8% upwards beats pretty much every other projector in existence. So that's not to take away from the SIM2. Remember it's like we are comparing a Lamborghini Aventador with a Bugatti Divo here ;)

You will definitely get to see the Christie and you will see for yourself what are the comparative differences. But just because the Bugatti Divo exists and is better this does not make the Lamborghini Aventador any less good :)

:wink:
 

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I liken comparing the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS to the Christie as being akin to comparing the Lamborghini Aventador with the Bugatti Divo, in that both are extremely high performance, but the latter is more expensive and delivers superior performance accordingly. Wherein, the former might have lesser older single-clutch transmission (HD resolution) but all things considered because it excels in all the other aspects this really doesn't matter and overall performance significantly beats the competition :)



Regarding the Christie, it really is the ultimate and the reference standard against which all other projectors should be compared. As far as video performance is concerned there is absolutely zero doubt that the Christie delivers superior performance and in more ways than one. However, like I have said, it's twice the price, but you do get what you pay for in this regard. And what is clear from my analysis of the HDR DUO PLUS is that it provides a big chunk of the performance of the Christie at circa half the price.



As far as color is concerned you need to forget about the whole 3P 6P aspect, that's a Red Herring; it boils down to laser modules wavelength, where the fact of the matter is you can have 100% of BT.2020 if you like; Christie will simply select laser modules accordingly. Same goes for green. Wherein, my measurements were simply of the prototype demo unit and by no means its limitation.



Regarding contrast and black levels it is the range 0% - 2% ADL in particular wherein you will most notice the difference between the Christie and the SIM2. Where it is within the range 0% - 1% that the SIM2 shows its limited ON/OFF which is why INTERSTELLAR 00:53:30 (= 0.18% ADL) scored 80 whereas the Christie nails a perfect 100 score. But this is hardly surprising given we are talking ON/OFF contrast measurments of 28,600:1 versus 21.2 MILLION:1 ! So with the Christie you get OLED performance down to 4 pixels, but you don't with the SIM2... BUT the SIM2's contrast performance from 0.8% upwards beats pretty much every other projector in existence. So that's not to take away from the SIM2. Remember it's like we are comparing a Lamborghini Aventador with a Bugatti Divo here ;)



You will definitely get to see the Christie and you will see for yourself what are the comparative differences. But just because the Bugatti Divo exists and is better this does not make the Lamborghini Aventador any less good :)



:wink:


What’s about barco Thor ? Compare to Christie it looks it’s in the same league


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Discussion Starter #53 (Edited)
I could almost overlook the laser being absent but there is just something more relaxing to our eyes when not using a lamp based projector.
You are absolutely right Joe that with LCoS type projectors such as SONY's SXRD projectors and JVC's D-ILA projectors, both of which are LCoS, the lamp-based projectors are at a disadvantage in this regard verus the laser models. The reason behind this is that the lamp light sources in combination with LCoS in those situations produces a phenomenon called micro-flicker. And this is not present with the laser projectors. It is also, for whatever reason, not present with the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS either :)

I think this partly explains why in the blind tests we carried out that everyone believed that they were actually viewing a 4K laser projector :)
Also, there is no singular blue laser through yellow phosphor type home theater projector that comes even close to achieving the color performance of the HDR DUO PLUS. Sorry!

As for not being 4K I am curious why they wouldn’t? It’s going to be 2020 before we know it and with 8K panels emerging it is already two steps behind out of the gate...
Firstly, 8K panels are not emerging, they've been out for years, in the professional market :)

Secondly, it boils down to overall video performance. And specifically what most influences video image quality, wherein scientifically speaking resolution is about 4th of 5th in the rank of importance. Now I am not saying resolution is not important. It most certainly is; it is simply that there are other aspects that influence good video image quality to a greater degree, primarily due to not hitting the limits of HVP.

The fact of the matter is that we have is most situations hit the limit of HVP with 4K resolution, meaning that in almost all circumstances 8K resolution is a marketing gimmick and nothing more. You would need a colossal sized screen and/or ridiculously close viewing distance in order for many people to be able to tell the difference. Something which this chart illustrates:



Where in fact in many home theaters the benefits of having 4K resolution over HD 1080p will not actually be being realized, especially when it comes to rows of seats behind the front row.

However, what you CAN perceive from any and all seating positions is all of: Black levels; Contrast; Dynamic Range; Color Accuracy, Depth, and Saturation; Gamut Coverage; Gamma; HDR Tone-Mapping; and Image Luminance... to name just a few.

Aside from the Christie, name me one single 4K laser projector that scores a near perfect high score in every single one of these categories without exception. You can't because none currently exist. Wherein, the fact of the matter is that a projector such as the HDR DUO PLUS which achieves precisely this, but which is HD 1080p resolution, will deliver superior overall video performance as compared with another projector which is 4K resolution but does not.

So like I said, it boils down to overall video performance.

I also personally think that when you have suboptimal performance with respect to these other aspects, the perceived influence on the video image of resolution is that much greater. But when these are all maxed out the perceived influence on the video image of resolution is actually less. The typically higher MTF of DLP versus LCoS probably also factors into the equation :)

:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #54 (Edited)
What’s about barco Thor ? Compare to Christie it looks it’s in the same league
The Barco Thor is indeed a fabulous projector and is definitely in the same league as the Christie in many respects

**HOWEVER** its Achilles Heal is its contrast performance within the low ADL range... and its price.

It is significantly more expensive than the Christie (which is already expensive) and the ON/OFF contrast measures around 5000:1 vs 21.2 MILLION:1 ! :)

Wherein, the additional issue with such low contrast performance is that further to blacks looking grey, it makes the colors look comparatively washed out. Consequently, the Barco Thor looks absolutely incredible with higher ADL content, but not so much with low ADL content.

In short, the Christie at all times looks just like an OLED TV. The Barco Thor does not

:wink:
 

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The Barco Thor is indeed a fabulous projector and is definitely in the same league as the Christie in many respects



**HOWEVER** its Achilles Heal is its contrast performance within the low ADL range... and its price.



It is significantly more expensive than the Christie (which is already expensive) and the ON/OFF contrast measures around 5000:1 vs 21.2 MILLION:1 ! :)



Wherein, the additional issue with such low contrast performance is that further to blacks looking grey, it makes the colors look compararively washed out. Consequently, the Barco Thor looks absolutely incredible with higher ADL content, but not so much with low ADL content.



In short, the Christie at all times looks just like an OLED TV. The Barco Thor does not



:wink:


Thx and good ur remind me to watch TROY

Interesting in that price and the difference in contrast huge

Thank u and love ur report about the duo and was hope it was native 4k it will be master hit for home theater setup (regular) of corse


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Discussion Starter #56
The 995 stacking was suppose to be different then just regular stacking to gain light output. Although Nigel pointed out their math problem lol, wonder if they ever even implemented or purely marketing?

I snapped this picture during the demo.... :eek:
I can't remember whether they were edge-blending or overlapping slightly offset but either way however you dress it up 2 stacked 4K resolution projectors does not equate to 8K resolution! :rolleyes:

To the best of my knowledge no, SONY has never implemented this and has no intentions of doing so. It was purely a marketing stunt as a knee-jerk (overreaction) to JVC showcasing e-Shift 8K resolution at IFA and CEDIA

For what its worth I really think all the projector manufacturers should be focusing on optimizing performance with 4K resolution and forget about 8K resolution, but there we go :)

:wink:
 

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I could almost overlook the laser being absent but there is just something more relaxing to our eyes when not using a lamp based projector. As for not being 4K I am curious why they wouldn’t? It’s going to be 2020 before we know it and with 8K panels emerging it is already two steps behind out of the gate...
If you want superior HDR, all primaries beyond P3, no banding, 10bit processing, superior contrast, inky blacks with high ANSI in a small footprint this is it.

There are trade-offs with every projection system. We could make a list of shortcomings with your projector of choice that you choose to accept that others simply would not. Adding a 4k panel does nothing to fix your shortcomings.
The SIM2 is superior in those areas minus the lack of 4k panels, even then, it delivers superior MTF to the screen:)

At the end of the day, it is all about being happy with your choice of poison:)
 

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Laser versus lamp. We should not confuse the benefits associated with RGB to BP laser. The one benefit they both share BP saves you having to replace the lamp over a period of time but you're still paying the equivalent of that lamp cost up front.
BP suffers the same light loss as a lamp-based projection due to the needed filtering. It is not an efficient light source. Your color accuracy is at the mercy of the manufacturer's choice of filters. Again no different than a lamp projector.
BP decays much faster than RGB laser and in your case with the current iteration of BP, the color gamut shrinks with every ignition.
With a lamp based projector, you can restore the light source as new for a few hundred dollars at your leisure.
 

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You will definitely get to see the Christie and you will see for yourself what are the comparative differences.
:wink:
I look forward to it, but just for reference purposes, the Duo is so close to my sony A1e's that I don't foresee making any changes there for a long time (the same is true for the Alcons and Trinnov). The current focus is dialing in 3D. Alan was never a big fan of it but my setup may have converted him. We are tweaking some of the presets to optimize it. Since the material is all REC709 pulling out one or more filter to get more pop may be optimal. I'm hoping Lumagen or MadVR Envy will eventually upscale BD to UHD/HDR giving 3D added HDR pop and color range.

I currently have over 90 3D movies that been ReMuxed with 3D soundtracks (mostly Atmos, some DTS:X, and a few Auro 3D) almost all of them are D-box encoded. 5D ; 3D video,3D sound and D-box (I also use the Lumagen zoom to get it closer to IMAX profile). It's surreal. :)
 

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What role does the Lumagen play in the system? Is it "just" doing colour correction / HDR tonemapping etc, or is it somehow configured to generate differently processed signals for each of the projectors? Or is all the high / low processing happening for the respective projectors internal to the projector?
The SIM2 can be dialed to perfection and set to multiple memories, no need for an external processor. However, the Lumagen adds an additional layer of user-friendly control to any system, it manages multiple sources beyond any projectors capability. The fact is it is intelligent enough to know if the source is SD/HD/HDR/3D and auto chooses the associated memory saving the end user from having to push multiple keystrokes on a remote. You can use the Lumagen to make subtle corrections in brightness or contrast between titles but before doing so and in the case of dual projection each projector must be properly profiled and calibrated.

With the SIM2 Duo each projector is designed to deliver different parameters. Stacking any two identical projectors does not accomplish the same thing.

Regarding the cost of the SIM2 Duo, SIM2 decided to deliver their best at any cost. They manufactured the Dolby HDR Monitor for years and migrated the technology into their own version which is sold into the commercial market. They know HDR all too well. Currently, the best TI chip for contrast and other parameters is 2k. All current TI 4k iterations lack in contrast, hence the reason the system is 2k.
Both Sony and the latest JVC are known for having a very good lens. SIM2 went a step further regarding their multi-element, all glass lens. The entire lens barrel is lined with special anti-reflective blackout material. Then the edge of each glass element received the same treatment to further eliminate any chance of reflection as did the light path. This has not been done before in a consumer product. This alone adds considerable cost to the product but needed to maximize the performance for HDR. Their secret sauce goes well beyond the lens including a special process to eliminate chroma aberration. Consider over 80% of all commercial Cinemas are using 2k projectors on 50 ft + wide screens, consider our tiny HT screens in comparison, consider the lack of true 4k quality source, reasons 2k is not dead and fits well in the HT environment.
If the SIM2 is not for you, at the end of the day their are plenty of options to satisfy everyone's choice in priority.
 
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