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ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE AV
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Discussion Starter #81
Stop over sometime this summer, Alan Gouger is the calendar keeper! Steve Bruzonsky agrees!!
Hold the phone, well if it isn't Mr Burnstein :)

In case folks haven't connected the dots in Mark's post, like @Lasalle and I did, Mark similarly fell in love with the performance of the HDR DUO PLUS, so much so that he's had one installed into his home theater.

How are you finding the projector Mark? :)

:wink:
 

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WITH WHITE LEVEL = 258 NITS, BLACK LEVEL = 0.009 NITS

:wink:
Thanks for these numbers. Obviously they refer to the dynamic contrast value of about 1:28'600. Native contrast is 1:6247. With an open iris then the black floor would be then about 0.041 Nits.

The reason why I was asking: As a VW760 owner I was wondering how blacks of that SIM2 HDR DUO Plus might look compared to my setup. I measured 2 weeks ago its black floor and white level and got 0.009 Nits and 186 Nits, respectively. This is for laser 80 output that I am using for HDR. This is of course without any dynamic dimming resulting in a native contrast of about 1: 20.6 K then. My Vw760 has now about 1550 h on its timer.

Coming back to the Sim2 HDR DUO Plus Stack:
For me a black floor of 0.009 Nits is very acceptable. Of course not absolutely perfect and not on OLED level for sure but still very acceptable. Coupled with 258 Nits max and resulting then in the documented contrast performance I understand that this SIM2 HDR DUO PLUs stack is certainly highly impressive. I hope to see one quite soon. My local Swiss distributor told me that he wants to organize one.
 

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Stop over sometime this summer, Alan Gouger is the calendar keeper! Steve Bruzonsky agrees!!
You were good till the last statement.;)

Mark,
Frankly ,this just isn't where I'm going to go ,too many years at 1080 to go back with my seating preferences and a 16' wide screen, but I do appreciate the offer.:)

Art
 

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On the topic of stacking, I wonder how the SIM2 would compare to stacked Sony 5000s(which are 4K). Would be similar pricing and seems like most logical competitor. The Christie (if it ever comes out) will be in a totally different price point.


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I doubt a single person in a blind test would pick the stacked 5000's.
 

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Well alrighty then...haven't seen anyone claim they didn't like Sony colors...have seen people say that calibrated red is calibrated red so how could Sony be different than JVC if properly calibrated...



I just fixed that for you :D

Hey @Lasalle , am I right or am I right? :p

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Fantastic review Arrow! It was a more exciting read than any murder mystery novel I've ever read lol!

I would LOVE to see this projector(s) some day. It sounds like it is very special.
 

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I just fixed that for you :D

Hey @Lasalle, am I right or am I right? :p

:wink:
Nigel,
I read the review once again - I did have the privilege to audition the DUO in Cedia 2016 with the lead Italian engineer at Sim2. We walked up to the JVC booth and watched the RS4500 Demo and then the Sony VW 5000.
We both agreed that the JVC was a better picture than the 5000 (and now I Own the 5000 go figure!!).
I will tell you this - my Sim2 Lumis host gave the most film like picture of any projector I have ever owned.
But reading your review I realized that the DUO you reviewed is a whole different animal than what I auditioned at CEDIA.
You throw Alan in the mix and that's what you get 'Perfection'.
Question - I used to own a Sim2 Lumis Host with a T3 lens (my throw is 26 feet) - since I was at the extremity of the T3 lens zoom output - I was told that I was at the sweet spot to get the highest brightness due to my throw distance.
I am sure that applies to the DUO also - getting more light output depending on the throw distance and where it sits in the zoom of the T3 lens!!
Would love your comments and if true maybe you can convince Brad to move the projector (just kidding).
Ash
 

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ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE AV
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Discussion Starter #91 (Edited)
Well alrighty then...haven't seen anyone claim they didn't like Sony colors...have seen people say that calibrated red is calibrated red so how could Sony be different than JVC if properly calibrated...
Sorry, but this is not good color performance:



The SONYs, when accurately calibrated, are not capable of reaching more than 80% - 90% of DCI-P3 within BT.2020 without without usage of a BT.2020 color filter and the color filter in the SONY 5000ES knocks out circa 40-45% of light output so you can't use it, wherein it covers only circa 85% of DCI-P3 at best. And none of the new SONY projectors, such as the 995/870ES and the 885/760ES have any BT.2020 color filters at all, so they are hamstrung in this regard.

It does not matter how well you calibrate a projector, if you don't have the gamut coverage, you don't have the gamut coverage. Meaning you can't calibrate the full range of color properly and cannot achieve reference color. End of story. I mean seriously, come on think about it, how are you going to accurately calibrate 100% saturation points if you don't have 100% gamut coverage? In short, you can't. Consequently, you cannot achieve reference color with HDR with any of these Sony projectors, however well you calibrate them. Like I said, if you don't have the gamut coverage you don't have the gamut coverage, and this is where SONY projectors currently fall short.

Whereas, the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS surpasses any and all SONY projectors by a mile by achieving up to 107% coverage of DCI-P3 and circa 85% of BT.2020, which I estimate is about 25%-30% more coverage of BT.2020 than the SONYs.

And I hate to say it, but that's not all... SONY projectors typically can't process 10-Bit color properly, which is what causes the manifestation of posterization/banding for which they are renown. Sure you can use Smooth Gradiation video processing to help eliminate the banding but doing so that softens the image and doesn't help the suboptimal color performance.

Seriously anyone who thinks a SONY projector has good color, has never seen good color. End of story. Greens, Reds, and Cyan performance in particular is poor.

Just to be clear, the ultimate target and reference standard for color is 100% coverage of BT.2020, which can already be achieved via full RGB laser projection. The milestone of 100% coverage of DCI-P3 within BT.2020 color gamut has already been surpassed, so all eyes should now be on the 100% of BT.2020 target. Whereas SONY is still struggling but failing to achieve 100% of DCI-P3.

So do SONY projectors have good color? Nope. Color performance ranks MEDIOCRE.

Don't get me wrong, I love SONY. All my TVs are SONY. I personally owned a SONY 1100ES projector for 5 years, and currently personally own a SONY 995/870ES. But I won't ignore their flaws. And it cannot be said that as of right now SONY projectors all offer good color performance. Sorry, but 85% - 90% coverage of DCI-P3 with projectors costing up to $70,000+ is not good enough. Sorry, but it just isn't! So it would be great to see SONY step up their game with their 2020 new projector model releases announced later this year in this regard and improve the gamut coverage of the projectors.

I really hope some of the folks who frequent this forum get to see the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS sometime. Just wait until you see the color performance of this thing. Seriously the difference in color peformance as compared with the Sony projectors is night and day.

In fact, methinks that a shootout versus a SONY 5000ES is in order :D

:wink:
 

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So it would be great to see SONY step up their game with their 2020 new projector model releases announced later this year in this regard and improve the gamut coverage of the projectors.

I really hope some of the folks who frequent this forum get to see the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS sometime. Just wait until you see the color performance of this thing. Seriously the difference in color peformance as compared with the Sony projectors is night and day.

In fact, methinks that a shootout versus a SONY 5000ES is in order :D

:wink:
Sony have had the prosumer native 4K marketplace to themselves for too long. Now all this great competition is here from all quarters, I hope they do what they did in the past and bring out some mightily impressive models later this year that really bring the fight back to the others.

They need to step up their game and earn the respect they once had, instead of merely trading off of old perceptions of their quality that they seem to be using.

I know they don't want their projectors to seem downmarket in any way, but if they priced them more realistically in the first place then it would be a different conversation even now.

Looking forward to seeing these things in action whenever the opportunity arises. :D:cool:
 

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I would not limit my comments to Sony, I don't like the color balance of any BP lasers I've seen.
Which is interesting, because I find the colours that are put on screen by laser projectors just look more natural and saturated.
We are each our own animals of course. ;):)
 

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Which is interesting, because I find the colors that are put on screen by laser projectors just look more natural and saturated.
We are each our own animals of course. ;):)
I probably should have clarified what my reference was. Aside from OLED TV, my projector reference for saturated color was several of the Barco D Cinema projectors that exceeded P3. Aside from the Duo I have not critically viewed any of the bulb based HT projectors. My issue is with the Blue lasers (BP), I've watched a couple of RGB laser projectors (Barco, the initial Christie proto-type and the Cinemeccanica) and they have very good color. That said my projector reference was still Alan's HC modified Barco Prometheus for rich color saturation.

There is a whole technical discussion on the issues associated with narrow bandwidth Blue lasers fired through yellow phosphor and filters achieving balanced color that I would rather not debate. This, of course, is just my opinion, but it is shared by several experts with decades in the industry (who I won't drag into a debate on this topic).
 

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ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE AV
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Discussion Starter #95
Sony have had the prosumer native 4K marketplace to themselves for too long. Now all this great competition is here from all quarters, I hope they do what they did in the past and bring out some mightily impressive models later this year that really bring the fight back to the others.

They need to step up their game and earn the respect they once had, instead of merely trading off of old perceptions of their quality that they seem to be using.

I know they don't want their projectors to seem downmarket in any way, but if they priced them more realistically in the first place then it would be a different conversation even now.

Looking forward to seeing these things in action whenever the opportunity arises. :D:cool:
When SONY launched the 1000ES/1100ES it was game-changing and without a doubt the best home theater projector at the time. Loved that projector! In fact, it is still in certain ways SONY's best performing projector, such as with respect to contrast performance (SXRD panel degradation aside), wherein it's peak ON/OFF contrast (when new) measured over 300,000:1. Good luck trying to measure over 300,000:1 contrast performance with any other SONY projector today! :rolleyes:

I would love to see SONY release a new projector that really pushes boundaries again, as they did with the 1000/1100ES :)

Seriously, SONY should release a new flagship 4K laser projector that's full RGB laser, 10,000 lumens, and measures over 300,000:1 ON/OFF contrast. Even priced at $99K it'd sell like hot cakes :cool:

RGB laser modules have evolved and have recently got A LOT less expensive. BARCO has just released a new range of RGB laser projectors with prices starting around $50,000. The ON/OFF contrast is still extremely poor but this is evidence that RGB laser is now economically viable for manufacturers to implement into Home Theater projectors. Someone, anyone, PLEASE DO THIS!!! ;) :D :p

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When SONY launched the 1000ES/1100ES it was game-changing and without a doubt the best home theater projector at the time. Loved that projector! In fact, it is still in certain ways SONY's best performing projector, such as with respect to contrast performance (SXRD panel degradation aside), wherein it's peak ON/OFF contrast (when new) measured over 300,000:1. Good luck trying to measure over 300,000:1 contrast performance with any other SONY projector today! :rolleyes:
That was indeed the last 'built' projector they made.

If one could fit new panels, up-to-date HDMI and processing and a laser engine in one, it would be pretty damn cool.

It even still had a motorised lens cover. A feature I really miss in my VW90ES. :(

Their move to prioritising the bottom line has come at the expense of innovation and true worth in my eyes. Their stuff always was more expensive, because it was BETTER. They are still trading off that perception now even though it is no longer the case.

They need to start making products people hanker after again, something that would make you sell your mothers kidney to buy..., which is what I thought the 870 would be, not the value inflated 'white elephant' it has been.

I would have one now, for all its foibles, if they had priced it at the level of the 760 (had that itself been priced at a more sensible 10k).
 
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I probably should have clarified what my reference was. Aside from OLED TV, my projector reference for saturated color was several of the Barco D Cinema projectors that exceeded P3. Aside from the Duo I have not critically viewed any of the bulb based HT projectors. My issue is with the Blue lasers (BP), I've watched a couple of RGB laser projectors (Barco, the initial Christie proto-type and the Cinemeccanica) and they have very good color. That said my projector reference was still Alan's HC modified Barco Prometheus for rich color saturation.

There is a whole technical discussion on the issues associated with narrow bandwidth Blue lasers fired through yellow phosphor and filters achieving balanced color that I would rather not debate. This, of course, is just my opinion, but it is shared by several experts with decades in the industry (who I won't drag into a debate on this topic).
Nice reply. :)
The blue laser through phosphor has shortcomings of course, but everything is done in the industry (except for the very top end of course) to get tech down to a price point and I am guessing that RGB lasers are still somewhat prohibitively priced.

Even so, the stability of a laser drawn image is so much more comforting to my flicker sensitive eyes. :D
 

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ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE AV
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Discussion Starter #98 (Edited)
I would not limit my comments to Sony, I don't like the color balance of any BP lasers I've seen.
Which is interesting, because I find the colours that are put on screen by laser projectors just look more natural and saturated.
We are each our own animals of course. ;):)
I probably should have clarified what my reference was. Aside from OLED TV, my projector reference for saturated color was several of the Barco D Cinema projectors that exceeded P3. Aside from the Duo I have not critically viewed any of the bulb based HT projectors. My issue is with the Blue lasers (BP), I've watched a couple of RGB laser projectors (Barco, the initial Christie proto-type and the Cinemeccanica) and they have very good color. That said my projector reference was still Alan's HC modified Barco Prometheus for rich color saturation.
There is a whole technical discussion on the issues associated with narrow bandwidth Blue lasers fired through yellow phosphor and filters achieving balanced color that I would rather not debate. This, of course, is just my opinion, but it is shared by several experts with decades in the industry (who I won't drag into a debate on this topic).
This comes back to what I was saying about most people having never experienced good color with projectors. It all boils down to what is your comparative reference. Wherein, if you've never seen better than a singular blue laser through yellow phosphor projector then you will likely be scratching your heads wondering what the hell @Lasalle, @Alan Gouger and I are banging on about :p

However, the biggest issue alluding most singular blue laser through yellow phosphor home theater projectors right now is good WCG gamut coverage, without losing 40-45% of your light output via having to make use of an aggressive BT.2020 color filter. Both the SONY 5000ES and JVC RS4500/Z1 have this same very issue. And the SONY 995/870ES and 885/760ES don't have any filter at all.

Wherein, the first new home theater laser projector that can achieve 100% of DCI-P3 within BT2020 color gamut, in a usable manner, will achieve a significant step-up in HDR color performance as compared with all the current offerings.

So I hate to say it, but LASER light source does NOT necessarily equate to better video performance. As far as specifically color performance is concerned, with respect to singular blue laser projectors (which is all home theater projectors currently, except the Barco Thor), laser can mean worse, not better performance. Where, for example, the JVC RS2000/N7 and JVC RS3000/NX9, both of which are lamp-based, measure circa 94% of DCI-P3 coverage without any BT.2020 color filter and easily achieve 100% of DCI-P3 with the color filter and with only circa 10% light loss.

The crux of the issue is the limitations of singular blue laser through yellow phosphor with respect to achieving good WCG gamut coverage for HDR, which seem to require aggressive color filters to hit 100% of DCI-P3 which knock out nearly half of the projector's light output.

This is just one reason why I am lobbying for home theater projector manufacturers to go full RGB laser.

Flagship home theater laser projector models should be delivering superior, not worse, color performance than the lesser models. Singular blue laser projectors do not currently achieve this. RGB laser projectors most certainly would :)

:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #99 (Edited)
Nice reply. :)
The blue laser through phosphor has shortcomings of course, but everything is done in the industry (except for the very top end of course) to get tech down to a price point and I am guessing that RGB lasers are still somewhat prohibitively priced.

Even so, the stability of a laser drawn image is so much more comforting to my flicker sensitive eyes. :D
Now THAT is most certainly often an advantage of laser as compared with many lamp-based projectors.

But I will reiterate that the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS does not have the micro-flicker that afflicts almost all lamp-based projectors, so in this regard it's somewhat a rarety :)

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I think we are talking at cross purposes but I agree with what you are saying as it applies to overall gamut and color based on your charts and what I see. I was referring to the long standing SDR back and forth about color on a Sony and color on other projectors like JVC when both are calibrated and now the same issue for HDR/wider gamut color.

For SDR (Rec709) the Sony I have, prior to drift, will pass gamut, saturation, hue, color checker, skin tones, memory colors, gamma, near black, etc. at my nit level. For HDR (2020/P3) I get a little better than what you show (my white is spot on) but my green is much, much worse than what you show over 75% (tracks very well to 75%) and I wish I knew how to get closer to your chart beyond 75%.

My point was that for either SDR or HDR if the comparative contrast differences for mid-tones are as you charted them and we look at 0 - 50% and perhaps even up to 75% then I can understand why the poor performance towards the outer rim may not be noticeable or relevant. I certainly would like to have a projector that is better as we move beyond 50% and 75% but for most movies I watch I don't see the issue as a practical one today in my case or would be for just about anyone I know that watches movies or sports at home.

To someone that has no idea of what the @Javs data extracted high lumen/high saturation frame that is then tone-mapped and shot through MadVR and shown as an image looks like or knows that a particular high green has too much yellow then I don't think they would freak out and ask that the projector be thrown away. Again, all I am saying is that for native to native and past lowest near black and prior to over 50% - 75% depending on the particular unit for HDR, Sony throws a pretty darn accurate and very nice image (IMHO) and your chart, to me, shows why they might like the Sony better. Not everyone is a fiend for the blackest blacks (although they would take them if they knew what the were missing and could get them all other things equal).

Sony probably did this intentionally for their target market and that is where they want to perform-- they want to be able to have marketable improvements down the road in black/near black and other areas beyond just more nits and throw a terrific picture in the mid-tones as that is what most non-AVS people see as "the picture". And before the Huns approach this is not to say that JVC or someone else doesn't have good/great mid-tones as well. Maybe I am missing or not understanding something though (which is VERY possible:eek:).

The likely cost differential between the double stack and the Sony vs the benefit in gamut and other areas each person has to decide for their own pocket and WAF. No matter what though I really appreciate the data you provide since we can actually see what the differences are from your analysis and then make our own, much better informed decision.

BTW, I don't use smooth gradation and don't see (and really don't want to lock my eye-brain combination into searching and seeing) posterization. I also don't have banding for either SDR or HDR.



Sorry, but this is not good color performance:



The SONYs, when accurately calibrated, are not capable of reaching more than 80% - 90% of DCI-P3 within BT.2020 without without usage of a BT.2020 color filter and the color filter in the SONY 5000ES knocks out circa 40-45% of light output so you can't use it, wherein it covers only circa 85% of DCI-P3 at best. And none of the new SONY projectors, such as the 995/870ES and the 885/760ES have any BT.2020 color filters at all, so they are hamstrung in this regard.

It does not matter how well you calibrate a projector, if you don't have the gamut coverage, you don't have the gamut coverage. Meaning you can't calibrate the full range of color properly and cannot achieve reference color. End of story. I mean seriously, come on think about it, how are you going to accurately calibrate 100% saturation points if you don't have 100% gamut coverage? In short, you can't. Consequently, you cannot achieve reference color with HDR with any of these Sony projectors, however well you calibrate them. Like I said, if you don't have the gamut coverage you don't have the gamut coverage, and this is where SONY projectors currently fall short.

Whereas, the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS surpasses any and all SONY projectors by a mile by achieving up to 107% coverage of DCI-P3 and circa 85% of BT.2020, which I estimate is about 25%-30% more coverage of BT.2020 than the SONYs.

And I hate to say it, but that's not all... SONY projectors typically can't process 10-Bit color properly, which is what causes the manifestation of posterization/banding for which they are renown. Sure you can use Smooth Gradiation video processing to help eliminate the banding but doing so that softens the image and doesn't help the suboptimal color performance.

Seriously anyone who thinks a SONY projector has good color, has never seen good color. End of story. Greens, Reds, and Cyan performance in particular is poor.

Just to be clear, the ultimate target and reference standard for color is 100% coverage of BT.2020, which can already be achieved via full RGB laser projection. The milestone of 100% coverage of DCI-P3 within BT.2020 color gamut has already been surpassed, so all eyes should now be on the 100% of BT.2020 target. Whereas SONY is still struggling but failing to achieve 100% of DCI-P3.

So do SONY projectors have good color? Nope. Color performance ranks MEDIOCRE.

Don't get me wrong, I love SONY. All my TVs are SONY. I personally owned a SONY 1100ES projector for 5 years, and currently personally own a SONY 995/870ES. But I won't ignore their flaws. And it cannot be said that as of right now SONY projectors all offer good color performance. Sorry, but 85% - 90% coverage of DCI-P3 with projectors costing up to $70,000+ is not good enough. Sorry, but it just isn't! So it would be great to see SONY step up their game with their 2020 new projector model releases announced later this year in this regard and improve the gamut coverage of the projectors.

I really hope some of the folks who frequent this forum get to see the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS sometime. Just wait until you see the color performance of this thing. Seriously the difference in color peformance as compared with the Sony projectors is night and day.

In fact, methinks that a shootout versus a SONY 5000ES is in order :D

:wink:
 
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