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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK so you where involved in an early Panamorph pre buy and feel frustrated / annoyed / even stronger... Or found that the Pannie does not fit in your setup as you believed it would....


...Obviously after all this time a refund does not sound so appealing so I have another suggestion...


I did not feel able to dive in at earlier stages of the Pre-buys due to financial worries but did finally commit at the 1095 price point...


If anyone feels that they want to step out I will graciously offer my 1095 refund for your place in line http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ...


This obviously give a better return than straight refund and gets you out without resale hassle... I get a lens sooner (and the GUI users will get a anamorphic Talisman desktop sooner)...


What no takers ??? I thought this forum was suddenly full of people fed up with the 'Pannie experience' http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/tongue.gif ???

If this idea is something that AVS / Cygnus / Shaun has a problem with mail me and I will delete ASAP


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Phat,


I have even a better solution!

Use this forum to get two dozen preorders to demand their money back now. Make an agreement between each other to demand money back by next Tuesday, July 3.


I'll bet orders would start to ship real soon!

 

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Phat


Not that my spot is up for sale, but it seems like a $600 spot is worth more than a $1095 spot.


Try

You'll never get two dozen to agree on anything.



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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
OK a few things...


Firstly this was intended to be kinda tongue in cheek (note kinda http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif ) but think about it...


This system would mean that a pre order still pulls out...


The order that pulled out would be more expensive to Cygnus and therefore only apply more pressure...


The people to benefit would be the participants that on one side get a $$ return on investment, and on the other get the product quicker...


However I should note that I believe Shawn is trying to get these out as fast as it is possible to do so and maintain the quality that we demand... Can you imagine the noise that people would be voicing if these long lusted after panamorphs arrived in less than stunning shape ???


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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

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Tryg,


The capital investment in the machine shop alone would make $10K seem like a drop in the bucket. Cygnus has much more invested in the Panamorph program than all the $$$ from the pre buy programs. Sure, our money may have helped fund the initial development, but what the pre buy was really all about is gauging the interests of the Home Theater community. Being able to show your boss 300+ (I really have no idea how many have pre ordered) pre orders from a small community like the AVSforum gives the company a reason to invest.


What I would hope the forum members realize is that we are on the cutting edge. If you could run out and buy a lens that does everything the Panamorph does you would have done it by now. Even though the ISCO II is a great lens, the Panamoprh promises to exceed the ISCO II in optical performance. If we could have built a Panamorph in our garage at home that would have been done by now.


Long story short, this is just a lens. There are a lot of people patiently waiting both in front and behind you. Shawn and Cygnus are working hard to fulfill our orders. If you don't care to wait, get a refund or sell you place in line.
 

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SoreEyes,


If you participated in any of the discounted pre buy programs you may be better off just selling the lens on a forum auction. You should at least be able to get what you paid for the lens + a little extra for your trouble.


If you didn't get in on a pre buy then you can just contact Cygnus Imaging and request a refund. Return the lens in original condition and you will receive a full refund minus any shipping and processing fees. This stated on their order form page.
www.cgns.com and then chose the "How to Buy" link on the upper left hand side of the page.
 

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Quote:
Tryg,


The capital investment in the machine shop alone would make $10K seem like a drop

in the bucket. Cygnus has much more invested in the Panamorph program than all

the $$$ from the pre buy programs. Sure, our money may have helped fund the

initial development, but what the pre buy was really all about is gauging the

interests of the Home Theater community. Being able to show your boss 300+ (I

really have no idea how many have pre ordered) pre orders from a small community

like the AVSforum gives the company a reason to invest.


What I would hope the forum members realize is that we are on the cutting edge. If

you could run out and buy a lens that does everything the Panamorph does you

would have done it by now. Even though the ISCO II is a great lens, the Panamoprh

promises to exceed the ISCO II in optical performance. If we could have built a

Panamorph in our garage at home that would have been done by now.


Long story short, this is just a lens. There are a lot of people patiently waiting both

in front and behind you. Shawn and Cygnus are working hard to fulfill our orders. If

you don't care to wait, get a refund or sell you place in line.
Joe that is a very nice summery of how I see the situation.

If you just look at some comments made on this forum you would think that Cygnus could not have built the

Panamorph without the money from Pre buys.

I honestly believe nothing could be further from the truth. It had more to do with how much interest and what

features where needed to be successful with the product.


A classic business approach, and a decision driven by Pure marketing only reasons. This approach can

definitely help a manufacturer to see both market acceptance and the features required before a product is

released (or even developed in this case).


I firmly believe this model for business is going to be very successful in the future and no doubt we will see

many refinements to the areas that many have complained about.

It will be all water of a ducks back soon as members start receiving their Panamorph's.


DavidW



[This message has been edited by David Wallis (edited 06-28-2001).]
 

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I for one can't see this as a successful model.


Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice, shame on me.


If I were told in the beginning it would take a year I would have gone ISCO.


If I were told now that it would take two months I would say Horse Pucky.


Never Again.




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Bob

I am not talking about this exact example. I do not think anyone (even the most patient) on this forum thought

it would take quite this long. I am a supporter and a believer in the Panamorph but even I believe the process

would have been handled differently if we as buyers and Cygnus as manufactures knew the problem areas

that we where going to face.


I was talking about the model for the development of a product/s and what features to include. This discount

Pre buy/development could be good thing in my eyes if we learn from the mistakes.


I hope that others who see the benefits of such programs (without the aggravation) can see the good side to this model.I can see the good side and for me at least I think the good side outweighs the bad side.

Those who are not prepared for problems should never enter into these type of arangements. You are better to pay full price when the product is shipping.

I am afraid there is no such thing as a free dinner in the bargain department.



DavidW
 

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David


I don't think anyone was looking for a free lunch, except maybe Bob Wood, who might take all of them. And I don't think very many would respond to an add that said "phenominal new product, 1/3 off, delivered in one or two years, just send yor check to ...".


What kind of a model are we talking about?




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REF,


The Panamorph program was always represented as a long term development process. At certain times when things were going along really well Shawn may have given overly optimistic dates for internal milestones. But as different setbacks were encountered the time lines were always adjusted based on the best available information.


The last few months have seen mostly manufacturing problems that have very little to do with issues that could be resolved by Shawn personally or Cygnus as a company. I would guess that's one of the primary reasons Cygnus decided to bring a significant percentage of manufacturing in house to their newly acquired machine shop.


While the delays have certainly added up and for some the wait has been less than worthwhile, I would suggest that reading over the voluminous status updates from the last 9 months will go a long way towards providing a sense of the difficulty involved in building a brand new precision optical device and the perseverance of Shawn and Cygnus.
 

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Joe


I've been in this since the beginning, Day 1.

The original project spec. was two months.


The discussion here is about a model for product development, and whether or not anyone would enter into an agreement with an open ended schedule.



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Bob

The decision to invest in any Pre buy, in a yet to exist product is a personal decision and needs to be weighed

up via the investing individual.


I am more driven to products that offer performance/feature advantages over what is available off the shelf. I

also like to have a say in features I want. Far too many products have far too many faults that do not suit me

or my system.


I spend what some may consider exorbitant amounts of money to get better performance out of my systems.

You could say its an addiction.

But I

also invest heavily on the stock market so I am aware of risks and losses these investments can bring, but I

am also aware of the gain that such risk can bring as well.


The Panamorph is an investment for me. Today it is $1395-$1695 and due to the Pre buy that makes it a

very good return for the money. Sure you could have brought an ISCO at $1700-$1900 but the Panamorph

was too good to pass up even with a much extended wait.


Cutting to my honest feelings, I think if I was one of the very first buyers back in July, I would have pulled the

pin if I did not have a panny by end of August or the beginning of September 2001.


On your two year wait ! I guess if it was a good enough product (ground breaker) I would wait patiently for

a pretty long time, but it would depend on the deal and the product.


It all gets down to doing a savings vs risk analogy and the result - well that depends on your opinion after you

weigh up all the pro's and con's.


Oh and "YES" I do understand someone else not wanting to take the risk. But these people should expect to

pay the full street price and I recomend these people buy only products that are shipping (saves the pain).


Me I like to have some input on a future product, so these investments and a little bit of risk are part of the game for

me.


DavidW
 

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David


I guess I'm just the Real Estate kind of person, stocks are not my cup o tea. Takes a little longer to get where your going.

There may be more out there,(like you) then I think, who would be willing to speculate. I still don't know if there are enough to build a model.





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To use the Real Estate market as an analogy:


Many people have their homes built from pre existing blue prints. Wait for construction, but get a brand new house.


Other people have their home designed and built as a one of a kind. Takes longer, costs more, but you get what you want.


A lot of people buy pre existing houses or houses in planned communities. Move right in and start living the high life.


My point is that any time their is money to be spent there will be a wide range of ways to spend that money. What one person find unacceptable another person will not have a problem with. The Panamoprh program is a little bit like that. Lot's of construction delays, but you are getting what you asked for.
 

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To expand upon the Real Estate analogy, I don't think anyone would invest the time and money of building a custom home if they new the concept of owning a home would be obsoleted in a few years. Instead, they'd settle for having a roof over our heads immediately.


Therefore, why would anyone desire to wait around (indefinately) for the "ultimate" Panamorph knowing that the need to use this device will be obsoleted as higher res, widescreen aspect projectors come to market.


The Pani is a good, "immediate" solution for those viewing non 4:3 stuff on 4:3 panels.


It is NOT a good investment. As time goes on this product will have less value, not more.


Hello to all who missed me.


-Ken



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Ken,


There are at least two forum members who are willing to purchase your place in line if you no longer care to wait. I'm puzzled as to why this option is not acceptable to you since the time table for your lens delivery seems to be causing quite a bit of personal distress.



From your post, you fail to understand that what's acceptable to some is not acceptable to others. The housing market is very much aware of that phenomena, and different housing products are targeted at different buyers with different comfort levels for risks or different time lines for housing need. The custom home market is one area where people are willing to put up with much greater expense, construction times, and some additional risk in order to have the end result they desire. If your not willing to pay or to wait for the end result you really desire then don't contract with a custom home builder. Buy a pre built home and move right in.


A similar but different situation has existed with anamorphic lens sold for home theater applications. If you don't know the history behind the use of anamorphic lenses with digital projectors in the home theater setting, then you're not well informed about the current state of affairs. A careful review of the forum archives may help you to come up to speed on these issues.


However, when it comes to immediate alternatives, there has been the ISCO I lens systems available for some time. If you would care to purchase this lens you may find that there are some rather disappointing tradeoffs to be made with this particular lens.


ISCO released the ISCO II lens to correct the short comings of the original, and this version of the ISCO lens is indeed a good performer. This lens will set you back quite a bit more than the Panamorph I. At least the cost of the Panamorph I at any of the pre buy prices.


So, if you don't want to wait for the Panamorph, you can always chose to buy the ISCO II. It will cost you a few extra $$$, but you can have it in a couple weeks. That seems to be the solution you would be most comfortable with.


Also, it appears that you're not very well informed about the long term usefulness of the Panamorph I. In addition to being able to convert a 4:3 projector to 16:9 the Panamorph I can convert a 16:9 projector into a 2.35 aspect ratio projector. This is useful since many many DVD titles are released in this aspect ratio. If achieving the best possible performance from any projector you might have is not all that important to you, then perhaps the Panamorph I is not well suited to your home theater needs. But it's important to note that even as the transition to 16:9 projectors takes place, there will still be a market for a lens like the Panamorph I.



 
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