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Sorry. It is unbalanced revA
My recommendation is to follow my previous advice, assuming that you have a DMM. There are inexpensive DMM's at Home Deport, and it is a nice tool to have.
So the goal would be to keep the voltage at or less than.9 volts with the avr mv at 0?
 

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So the goal would be to keep the voltage at or less than.9 volts with the avr mv at 0?
Yes, AVR MV = 0 is defined as “Reference”, which is as loud as you should ever want to play your system. So if at Reference the voltage does not exceed .9v, then at any lower volume you will be safe. And, of course, you need to adjust the sub gain so you get back to 75dB at the MLP when playing the AVR test tones at reference. Easy, isn’t it?

Let us know how it goes.
 

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Yes, AVR MV = 0 is defined as “Reference”, which is as loud as you should ever want to play your system. So if at Reference the voltage does not exceed .9v, then at any lower volume you will be safe. And, of course, you need to adjust the sub gain so you get back to 75dB at the MLP when playing the AVR test tones at reference. Easy, isn’t it?

Let us know how it goes.
Will do thanks!
 

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Hey Guys I am having a lot of struggles trying to get all my speakers setup in my room. It is a 20' wide room with 19' depth Vaulted ceiling that peaks at 13.8'. I have ran many measurements as well as positioned the sub just about everywhere I can think of. I can get the sub response to look very good IMO but when I pair it with the speakers sound below the crossover is still being sent to the speakers and the graphs end up looking terrible. Any clue what I am doing wrong? I need lots of helps s anyone willing to take the time would be greatly appreciated as I would really like to get this done! All graphs below are smoothed using variable smoothing. It really seems like every adjustment I think should work ends up making it worse. I've done this before in a much more user friendly room with ease but this room requires me to reach out to the experts here for advice.

Speaker setup:
Left/Right: Klipsch rf7III
Center: Klipsch rc64III
Surrounds: Polk RTI4
Sub: Rythmik FV25HP
Receiver: MarAN
 

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Hey Guys I am having a lot of struggles trying to get all my speakers setup in my room. It is a 20' wide room with 19' depth Vaulted ceiling that peaks at 13.8'. I have ran many measurements as well as positioned the sub just about everywhere I can think of. I can get the sub response to look very good IMO but when I pair it with the speakers sound below the crossover is still being sent to the speakers and the graphs end up looking terrible. Any clue what I am doing wrong? I need lots of helps s anyone willing to take the time would be greatly appreciated as I would really like to get this done! All graphs below are smoothed using variable smoothing. It really seems like every adjustment I think should work ends up making it worse. I've done this before in a much more user friendly room with ease but this room requires me to reach out to the experts here for advice.
When posting images, select the “Include Legend” option, which will provide the description on the bottom of the measurement screen identifying the measurements. Also, provide a description for each measurement in the small box associated with the measurement, like “Left speaker, no subs” Otherwise, we will not know which measurement is which.

If the bass frequencies are being routed to the mains below the crossover, this typically happens when the speakers are set to Large. However, you can’t establish a crossover if the speakers are set to large, so this can’t be the case. Perhaps your crossover is set too low? To verify that the mains are indeed receiving a signal below the crossover, turn off the sub(s), set the crossover to a high value (at least 100Hz), and use the REW Signal generator to send a low frequency signal, say 50Hz, to see if the tone is being reproduced by the mains. You may hear some low frequencies, since the crossover is not a brick wall, but the level should be attenuated.

Other than that, I have no additional comments, since I can’t identify the specific measurements in your screenshots.
 
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When posting images, select the “Include Legend” option, which will provide the description on the bottom of the measurement screen identifying the measurements. Also, provide a description for each measurement in the small box associated with the measurement, like “Left speaker, no subs” Otherwise, we will not know which measurement is which.

If the bass frequencies are being routed to the mains below the crossover, this typically happens when the speakers are set to Large. However, you can’t establish a crossover if the speakers are set to large, so this can’t be the case. Perhaps your crossover is set too low? To verify that the mains are indeed receiving a signal below the crossover, turn off the sub(s), set the crossover to a high value (at least 100Hz), and use the REW Signal generator to send a low frequency signal, say 50Hz, to see if the tone is being reproduced by the mains. You may hear some low frequencies, since the crossover is not a brick wall, but the level should be attenuated.

Other than that, I have no additional comments, since I can’t identify the specific measurements in your screenshots.
Jerry first off I want to give you a very heartfelt thank you for the guide you have posted. It allowed me to pursue this level of audio integration. Without it I would not even be here attempting to learn about such a great hobby and for that I really thank you.

Secondly, I have updated the graphs as well as posted a plot using the HDMI1 and sub off. Personally I am just not very happy with the results I am getting and have moved the speakers everywhere I could Imagine. Any advice on things to try or do to better the results in my room would be greatly appreciated for sure.


EDIT: I have added a picture of the room. I wanted to provide as much information as I can to anyone willing to help a fellow member out!
 

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Jerry first off I want to give you a very heartfelt thank you for the guide you have posted. It allowed me to pursue this level of audio integration. Without it I would not even be here attempting to learn about such a great hobby and for that I really thank you.

Secondly, I have updated the graphs as well as posted a plot using the HDMI1 and sub off. Personally I am just not very happy with the results I am getting and have moved the speakers everywhere I could Imagine. Any advice on things to try or do to better the results in my room would be greatly appreciated for sure.


EDIT: I have added a picture of the room. I wanted to provide as much information as I can to anyone willing to help a fellow member out!
Thanks for the kind words. You have a very nice listening room, although a challenging one from an audio perspective. I also have a living room as my primary listening area--you can see pictures in the My Setup link in my sig. I have a significant amount of treatments and have achieved a pretty good result. Wife acceptance factor may limit your treatment options (I am a single guy).

Thanks for adding the graph descriptions. Only three graphs are of interest to me: no 2 (mains, Aud on), no 5 (Sub only, Aud on), and no 8 (Mains only). BTW, is graph 8 with or without Audyssey? And do not measure mains AND HDMI4. As long as the mains are set to Small, the measurement will include the low frequencies coming from the sub. Adding HDMI4 (which is LFE) only doubles up the bass (at 10dB higher) and distorts the results.

Graph 8 showing mains only looks normal. Graph 5 showing subs only looks quite good. However, graph 2 showing Mains+sub, does not look very good. I don't know why the mains and subs are interacting poorly. Several suggestions: 1) experiment with a higher crossover, 2) double-check to make sure there isn't a polarity issue (using REW Impulse response--see Guide), and 3) experiment with the "Sub distance tweak". Let me know if you are unfamiliar with the distance tweak and I'll describe.
 

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Thanks for the kind words. You have a very nice listening room, although a challenging one from an audio perspective. I also have a living room as my primary listening area--you can see pictures in the My Setup link in my sig. I have a significant amount of treatments and have achieved a pretty good result. Wife acceptance factor may limit your treatment options (I am a single guy).



Thanks for adding the graph descriptions. Only three graphs are of interest to me: no 2 (mains, Aud on), no 5 (Sub only, Aud on), and no 8 (Mains only). BTW, is graph 8 with or without Audyssey? And do not measure mains AND HDMI4. As long as the mains are set to Small, the measurement will include the low frequencies coming from the sub. Adding HDMI4 (which is LFE) only doubles up the bass (at 10dB higher) and distorts the results.



Graph 8 showing mains only looks normal. Graph 5 showing subs only looks quite good. However, graph 2 showing Mains+sub, does not look very good. I don't know why the mains and subs are interacting poorly. Several suggestions: 1) experiment with a higher crossover, 2) double-check to make sure there isn't a polarity issue (using REW Impulse response--see Guide), and 3) experiment with the "Sub distance tweak". Let me know if you are unfamiliar with the distance tweak and I'll describe.


Thanks again for your support on this. That is exactly what I do not get. My sub response seems very good for single sub in an odd room. Once I add in the mains everything looks terrible.

I have not looked at polarity issues so I will do that now and post back. I’ve played around with the sub distance tweak but not sure I am doing it correct or not. Basically just add up to 3’ or subtract up to 3’ measuring each step size of say 0.5’ to see if it helps or hurts. Is this correct? Will post back results shortly.


EDIT: Attached are the impulse responses. It seems they are off a bit. For clarification I used the right rear speakers HDMI6 as the timing reference when taking the measurements. All measurements that are shown are with AUD on. I am not quite sure what I am looking at here or what I can do to fix it. What do you think?


EDIT2: Added graphs for 100hz crossover Also I tried the sub tweak but was unable to really change the graph. Minor peak and Null changes but where it was placed seemed to be the best so left it alone. Certainly I must be doing something wrong or Audyseey is really throwing me off bc The results from audyssey are trimming down the bass on my mains drastically but yet I am left with a unsmooth graph. Would it help me at all to buy a minidsp and run the sub through it then tweak with Audyssey?
 

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With my Pioneer, mains on large and subs on plus, changing the xo still has an effect, so that may be brand-dependent.
Michael
The OP clearly showed that he has a Marantz in his post, so not applicable.
 

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The OP clearly showed that he has a Marantz in his post, so not applicable.


Jerry I indeed have a Marantz. I continued to play around with placement taking graphs and trying various different things. I will say the 100hz graphs I posted did look a little better but running rf7iiis at 100hz has to be a sin! In all seriousness though how does the timing graph look? Any ideas of what I could provide the group such that someone may see the smoking gun that’s causing my terrible response in my room?


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Jerry I indeed have a Marantz. I continued to play around with placement taking graphs and trying various different things. I will say the 100hz graphs I posted did look a little better but running rf7iiis at 100hz has to be a sin! In all seriousness though how does the timing graph look? Any ideas of what I could provide the group such that someone may see the smoking gun that’s causing my terrible response in my room?


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The impulse response graphs need to be re-worked. If you look in the lower right corner, you will see “+” and “-“ signs. Use the + sign to zoom in on the impulse responses so that we can see whether the initial pulse is upwards or downwards. The initial pulse for all speakers should be in the same direction, which would indicate correct polarity. The initial pulse should line up as well, indicating good time alignment. Re-post the measurements after you have made this correction, please.

No need to be concerned with a higher crossover, regardless of how capable your mains are. Subs are inherently better at reproducing low frequencies, and can be placed to produce the smoothest response. The mains are positioned to produce the best soundstage. The position for best soundstage and the smoothest bass response rarely coincide. I have highly-capable mains (PSB Synchrony One’s), and still use a 100Hz crossover.

I can’t really tell whether the latest frequency response measurements are better or not.
 
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@superkyle,

My advice for now mate is to put a movie on with the missus and kids (if you have them) and just try to enjoy. That means have a few beers to relax so your brain forgets the frequency response in REW of here and there locations....if you're a recovering alcoholic or whatever then hooch, a coffee or some pushups but just relax and enjoy!
 

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@superkyle,

My advice for now mate is to put a movie on with the missus and kids (if you have them) and just try to enjoy. That means have a few beers to relax so your brain forgets the frequency response in REW of here and there locations....if you're a recovering alcoholic or whatever then hooch, a coffee or some pushups but just relax and enjoy!

Oh I have but after movie night I wake up knowing that I can do better. Until it’s fixed or I have resolved everything possible to fix it without adding 4” bass traps all over the room I am hoping to keep going.

The impulse response graphs need to be re-worked. If you look in the lower right corner, you will see “+” and “-“ signs. Use the + sign to zoom in on the impulse responses so that we can see whether the initial pulse is upwards or downwards. The initial pulse for all speakers should be in the same direction, which would indicate correct polarity. The initial pulse should line up as well, indicating good time alignment. Re-post the measurements after you have made this correction, please.



No need to be concerned with a higher crossover, regardless of how capable your mains are. Subs are inherently better at reproducing low frequencies, and can be placed to produce the smoothest response. The mains are positioned to produce the best soundstage. The position for best soundstage and the smoothest bass response rarely coincide. I have highly-capable mains (PSB Synchrony One’s), and still use a 100Hz crossover.



I can’t really tell whether the latest frequency response measurements are better or not.

Thanks Jerry! I will work up the graphs when I get off work and post them back. While I hope that is the issue I’m leaning toward the room just being a pain in the butt. Since the sub and sealers are effectively pointing the same direction I’m wondering if they are not voicing off and causing all kind of chaos. Certainly good bass response has been achieved with a vaulted ceiling open floor plan.

Anyone have this style room? What was done to achieve better results? I know may will say add a sub but with the single bass response smooth would that benefit me at all?



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Oh I have but after movie night I wake up knowing that I can do better. Until it’s fixed or I have resolved everything possible to fix it without adding 4” bass traps all over the room I am hoping to keep going.




Thanks Jerry! I will work up the graphs when I get off work and post them back. While I hope that is the issue I’m leaning toward the room just being a pain in the butt. Since the sub and sealers are effectively pointing the same direction I’m wondering if they are not voicing off and causing all kind of chaos. Certainly good bass response has been achieved with a vaulted ceiling open floor plan.

Anyone have this style room? What was done to achieve better results? I know may will say add a sub but with the single bass response smooth would that benefit me at all?



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Bass traps address resonance, which is measured with the waterfall graph. The most effective way to smooth out bass response is 1) positioning (which you have tried), and 2) adding additional subs. Whether or not you add additional subs depends on whether or not you are pleased with the sound. Let your ears be the final judge, not some slight imperfections in REW response curves. I have an open floor plan as well (but not vaulted ceilings), and it took four 15” sealed subs to achieve a fairly flat bass response, plus a lot of moving subs around the room.

And I agree, before you consider adding additional subs, we need to figure out why the mains and sub are not playing nice together.

You might want to post a waterfall graph (mains+subs, Audyssey on) so that we can see how well bass resonance is being controlled.
 

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BTW, as you were moving the sub around to find the best location, did you re-run Audyssey in the current speaker and sub layout? Audyssey is sensitive to speaker placement, and needs to be redone when you make changes.

And if you want to, can you upload your REW measurement MDAT file to a file-sharing site (like Dropbox.com) so that I can download it and look at it? I would like to see the main speaker measurements without the sub, and the sub measurement by itself, Audyssey either on or off.
 

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BTW, as you were moving the sub around to find the best location, did you re-run Audyssey in the current speaker and sub layout? Audyssey is sensitive to speaker placement, and needs to be redone when you make changes.



And if you want to, can you upload your REW measurement MDAT file to a file-sharing site (like Dropbox.com) so that I can download it and look at it? I would like to see the main speaker measurements without the sub, and the sub measurement by itself, Audyssey either on or off.


Jerry sorry for the delay as I was stuck at work. Now that I am home I will be happy to upload my files to Dropbox as well as add any additional measurements requested. I really appreciate it bc I just can’t find out why they are fighting and it driving me mad haha.

To answer your questions I looked at the impulse response and all do move in the same direction however none are stacked on top of each other. This includes with and without Audyssey on.

As far as running Audyssey each time I move I will say that I do but with an asterisk. What I mean by that is I will run sweeps moving the sub all over the room with Audyssey off. Once I feel I get a spot that is showing good response I will run the full 8 positions. My position sequence covers 8 positions all on my couch as I have tried it as the diagram shows as well as many others and this seems to provide a little better results at the MLPs. Let me know how I can share that Dropbox file with you and I’ll upload it now.

EDIT: Link Created for downloading measurments

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bkdx47a95tef2ju/All sweeps new location.mdat?dl=0


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Jerry sorry for the delay as I was stuck at work. Now that I am home I will be happy to upload my files to Dropbox as well as add any additional measurements requested. I really appreciate it bc I just can’t find out why they are fighting and it driving me mad haha.

To answer your questions I looked at the impulse response and all do move in the same direction however none are stacked on top of each other. This includes with and without Audyssey on.

As far as running Audyssey each time I move I will say that I do but with an asterisk. What I mean by that is I will run sweeps moving the sub all over the room with Audyssey off. Once I feel I get a spot that is showing good response I will run the full 8 positions. My position sequence covers 8 positions all on my couch as I have tried it as the diagram shows as well as many others and this seems to provide a little better results at the MLPs. Let me know how I can share that Dropbox file with you and I’ll upload it now.

Typically you would move the sub around, and take measurements with Audyssey off. Once you feel you have found the best spot, then run Audyssey again. In theory, the best measurement with Audyssey off should yield the best result with Audyssey on as well (and hopefully even better).

The impulse response overlay shows all three mains with the same polarity (good), but with a slight timing difference. However, the timing issue is only .14ft, or 1.7 inches. Hardly anything to worry about, and certainly inaudible. Audyssey has done a good job with alignment.



The sub is also showing the same polarity, so no problem there.



The ETC measurement is showing a significant reflection between 11 and 11.5 feet from the measurement mic's position. You should try and identify what is causing that reflection. There are several other less serious reflections.



And finally, the waterfall is showing significant ringing in the 35-70Hz region, which is difficult to resolve without adding tons of bass traps.




As far as addressing a rather serious dip in combined mains+sub response at 64Hz, and another dip between 90 and 95Hz, I think the sub distance tweak might help:

1. Measure left+sub with the default sub distance established by Audyssey.
2. Increase the sub distance, say 5ft as a starter, and re-measure.
3. If improved, keep increasing in 1ft increments until the measurement starts getting worse. Pick the distance that produced the flattest response.
4. If 5ft makes the measurement worse, try 4ft, then 3ft, etc. looking for the flattest response.
5. Once you have settled on a distance, measure right+sub and center+sub to verify that the measurement is flatter for both of those as well.


Publish your results, hoping they are improved.
 
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Typically you would move the sub around, and take measurements with Audyssey off. Once you feel you have found the best spot, then run Audyssey again. In theory, the best measurement with Audyssey off should yield the best result with Audyssey on as well (and hopefully even better).



The impulse response overlay shows all three mains with the same polarity (good), but with a slight timing difference. However, the timing issue is only .14ft, or 1.7 inches. Hardly anything to worry about, and certainly inaudible. Audyssey has done a good job with alignment.







The sub is also showing the same polarity, so no problem there.







The ETC measurement is showing a significant reflection between 11 and 11.5 feet from the measurement mic's position. You should try and identify what is causing that reflection. There are several other less serious reflections.







And finally, the waterfall is showing significant ringing in the 35-70Hz region, which is difficult to resolve without adding tons of bass traps.









As far as addressing a rather serious dip in combined mains+sub response at 64Hz, and another dip between 90 and 95Hz, I think the sub distance tweak might help:



1. Measure left+sub with the default sub distance established by Audyssey.

2. Increase the sub distance, say 5ft as a starter, and re-measure.

3. If improved, keep increasing in 1ft increments until the measurement starts getting worse. Pick the distance that produced the flattest response.

4. If 5ft makes the measurement worse, try 4ft, then 3ft, etc. looking for the flattest response.

5. Once you have settled on a distance, measure right+sub and center+sub to verify that the measurement is flatter for both of those as well.





Publish your results, hoping they are improved.


Jerry, wow I really appreciate you taking the time and helping me out with this. What you have laid out for measuring sub locations is exactly what I attempt to do so sounds like I am on the right track there. What I may be doing wrong is while I moved the sub around I only took sub measurements ie hdmi4. I know it makes it louder but I was only looking at response. I may spend some time this weekend moving it around and look at how all three (LCR) behave at each spot as I may just have to use the give and take method and settle.

The ringing at 11 feet is odd. The main thing that comes to mind it the front of the room where all the speakers are. That is nearly the correct distance. This also matches the back corner of the room and even worse matches the distance to the peak of the ceiling.

With the waterfall my sub does have PEQ would it be possible to reduce the Db over a fairly large bandwidth say at 50hz? I’m fairly new to sub PEQ also but is this not what it should be used for? Knowing this location may help me eliminate the ringing a little and help with sounds canceling out.

I should be able to run the sub distance tweak tomorrow after work so I can have those posted fairly quickly. I also have a few that we’re not included like the 100hz sweeps which is what it is set at currently. I really think that increasing it even more may work out but I’m worried I may reach the point of vocals coming through the sub and I want to avoid that.


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Jerry, wow I really appreciate you taking the time and helping me out with this. What you have laid out for measuring sub locations is exactly what I attempt to do so sounds like I am on the right track there. What I may be doing wrong is while I moved the sub around I only took sub measurements ie hdmi4. I know it makes it louder but I was only looking at response. I may spend some time this weekend moving it around and look at how all three (LCR) behave at each spot as I may just have to use the give and take method and settle.

The ringing at 11 feet is odd. The main thing that comes to mind it the front of the room where all the speakers are. That is nearly the correct distance. This also matches the back corner of the room and even worse matches the distance to the peak of the ceiling.

With the waterfall my sub does have PEQ would it be possible to reduce the Db over a fairly large bandwidth say at 50hz? I’m fairly new to sub PEQ also but is this not what it should be used for? Knowing this location may help me eliminate the ringing a little and help with sounds canceling out.

I should be able to run the sub distance tweak tomorrow after work so I can have those posted fairly quickly. I also have a few that we’re not included like the 100hz sweeps which is what it is set at currently. I really think that increasing it even more may work out but I’m worried I may reach the point of vocals coming through the sub and I want to avoid that.


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The guide has some tips with respect to locating the source of reflections.

I wouldn’t raise the crossover above 100Hz. And I doubt whether PEQ will improve bass ringing. Get used to the fact that there never is an easy answer—you just need to keep experimenting and measuring until you are happy with (or can live with) the sound.
 
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