To the extent that it is a matter of trust, understand that the so-called macroblocking problem wasn't a Denon problem, per se. It was a Faroudja problem, and afflicted any DVD player using the Faroudja FLI23XX chip. The 5910 is using a completely different chip that does not have those macroblocking problems, so that shouldn't be a concern. An SDI mod and Iscan would also allow you to avoid macroblocking. I'm not sure which one would cost you more, but at least with the iScan you would also be able to deinterlace/sclae your other sources.
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Since Denon did not Fix 5900 MB Problem
If it were not for Macro Blocking I love the 5900. I watched "Shark Tale" this past weekend and the color and clarity were outstanding. But movies with dark scenes can really bum me out. Does it make sense to do an SDI mod on this unit and add a DVDO HD with SDI or should I just start over again. I can't say I trust Denon very much with my money, even though I can afford a 5910.
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Well since Samsung, Yamaha, Theta, Meridian, Panasonic, Teac Esoteric, Toshiba, and Zenith didn't fix it either, an SDI mod would probably do you well.
The way to go, I think, is buying a player with a good quality build and Sil Img 504 de-interlacer, like DVD-9000 (can be had refurbished from eCost.com for less then $1100 now) and either using it s component outputs or installing SDI and using it with iScan HD if your display is not CRT based. Cost wise beats both DVD-5900 and DVD-5910...
Rosty
Rosty
Why does it matter whether the display is CRT based if you want to use the iScan HD?
There's plenty of blame to go around on the Faroudja macroblocking problem. Genesis sold a faulty product to a number of companies looking for an affordable deinterlacing/scaling solution for their DVD players. Those same companies ended up incorporating a defective deinterlacer in their products, some long after the problem had been reported.
At this stage in the game I'd definitely go with a player that uses a quality MPEG decoder, get it SDI modded, and feed an iSCAN with its output if video is your only concern. If you're going with an iSCAN the deinterlacer in the player makes no difference whatsoever, since you'd be bypassing it completely.
At this stage in the game I'd definitely go with a player that uses a quality MPEG decoder, get it SDI modded, and feed an iSCAN with its output if video is your only concern. If you're going with an iSCAN the deinterlacer in the player makes no difference whatsoever, since you'd be bypassing it completely.
If you can afford a DVD-5910, don't get one. Wait a few months for the Realta or Gennum based video processors to become available. All of your sources will look better instead of just one of them.
I'd still go with the SDI mod though, as it offers an all digital connection to the processor.
I'd still go with the SDI mod though, as it offers an all digital connection to the processor.
Thanks all for your replies I appreciate your help.
I am not one to wait forever for the perfect technology. I buy a new DVD player every 6 months or so just to see how much the technology has improved. I thought the 5900 would hold me over until true HD-DVD becomes available.
At this point I give up on the all in one player solution and just want the best video I can get. I have all very high end separates for CD, Vinyl and am on the fence with SACD and DVD-A. It seems kind of perverse to use a 5900 as just a transport. I also have a 3800 and 47Ai just lying around.
Maybe I should just spend my money on therapy. Anyway Joe, are you saying that separates are the way to go and that I should go with SDI and a next generation processor?????
I am not one to wait forever for the perfect technology. I buy a new DVD player every 6 months or so just to see how much the technology has improved. I thought the 5900 would hold me over until true HD-DVD becomes available.
At this point I give up on the all in one player solution and just want the best video I can get. I have all very high end separates for CD, Vinyl and am on the fence with SACD and DVD-A. It seems kind of perverse to use a 5900 as just a transport. I also have a 3800 and 47Ai just lying around.
Maybe I should just spend my money on therapy. Anyway Joe, are you saying that separates are the way to go and that I should go with SDI and a next generation processor?????
I have a Denon 3910, and I've looked and looked for the macroblocking problem using a variety of the discs that are supposed to highlight the problem and I've never been able to spot anything, even cueing up to the exact chapter / section that is supposed to show the problem clearly.
I gather the 3910 is free of the problem using 480p DVI output? If the 5900 and 3910 are virtually identical hardware wise, why wouldn't they be able to issue a firmware fix for the 5900 that reduces the problem down to 3910 levels?
Is there some concensus that the 3910 is essentially free from "macroblocking" compared to other players that use the newer Faroudja chip?
I gather the 3910 is free of the problem using 480p DVI output? If the 5900 and 3910 are virtually identical hardware wise, why wouldn't they be able to issue a firmware fix for the 5900 that reduces the problem down to 3910 levels?
Is there some concensus that the 3910 is essentially free from "macroblocking" compared to other players that use the newer Faroudja chip?
needspeed
If I were you, I'd try the therapy first.
It's usually the most cost effective solution when compared to the cost of the OCD present in High End audio/video aficionados (not that I'd know anything about that ). If that doesn't work, and I'm pretty sure it won't , the answer is "yes" separates are the way to go.
uzun
Using the Faroudja FL23xx chip, every DVD player exhibits the MB problem. To what extent a person sees the problem depends on the display, the player's other electronics, the person's sensitivity to the problem or a combination of 2 or 3 of these contributors.
All outputs through the DVI port must go through the Faroudja chip: only the analog 480i outputs bypass the chip. Since you don't seem to notice the MB, sounds like you are one of the lucky ones.
If I were you, I'd try the therapy first.
It's usually the most cost effective solution when compared to the cost of the OCD present in High End audio/video aficionados (not that I'd know anything about that ). If that doesn't work, and I'm pretty sure it won't , the answer is "yes" separates are the way to go.uzun
Using the Faroudja FL23xx chip, every DVD player exhibits the MB problem. To what extent a person sees the problem depends on the display, the player's other electronics, the person's sensitivity to the problem or a combination of 2 or 3 of these contributors.
All outputs through the DVI port must go through the Faroudja chip: only the analog 480i outputs bypass the chip. Since you don't seem to notice the MB, sounds like you are one of the lucky ones.
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Joe is right on. I was one of the "lucky" ones with the 5900 when I had my Samsung HLM617 DLP. I NEVER saw a single problem. I became extremely unlucky when I "upgraded" displays to the Mits 62725 DLP and the 5900 macroblocking was unbearable on the same dvds I had been watching on my Samsung. Talk about upsetting.
On to the 5910...
| Originally posted by Joe Murphy Jr needspeed uzun Using the Faroudja FL23xx chip, every DVD player exhibits the MB problem. To what extent a person sees the problem depends on the display, the player's other electronics, the person's sensitivity to the problem or a combination of 2 or 3 of these contributors. All outputs through the DVI port must go through the Faroudja chip: only the analog 480i outputs bypass the chip. Since you don't seem to notice the MB, sounds like you are one of the lucky ones. |
On to the 5910...
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I found the 2910 was free of macroblocking on my HT1000. None of the torture test DVD scenes had any problem.
I did have the green push, Enhanced black mode flopping, some minor Y/C error and some excessive EE, but those are all supposed to be corrected via recent firmware updates.
I would also remind others, SDI support is really a hack and may not receive the best support on future external processors. Maybe hack is too harsh a word, but I use in a friendly way to describe what I feel is not main stream connectivity. SDI users are at the mercy of box makers for continued connectivity. HDMI 480i may be a more solid player/processor investment. Just a thought.
| Originally posted by uzun Is there some concensus that the 3910 is essentially free from "macroblocking" compared to other players that use the newer Faroudja chip? |
I did have the green push, Enhanced black mode flopping, some minor Y/C error and some excessive EE, but those are all supposed to be corrected via recent firmware updates.
I would also remind others, SDI support is really a hack and may not receive the best support on future external processors. Maybe hack is too harsh a word, but I use in a friendly way to describe what I feel is not main stream connectivity. SDI users are at the mercy of box makers for continued connectivity. HDMI 480i may be a more solid player/processor investment. Just a thought.
You're right, hack is too harsh a word. SDI, in both SD and HD form, is a professional broadcast standard. It ain't gone nowhere for a long time.
The blue laser players coming in 2006 will be able to play today's DVDs, but at what quality? Just as DVD players were able to play CDs (but were rather awful at it), these new players may (or may not) be crappy at handling yesterday's technology. If you have a player such as the DVD-5900, you know you have excellent internal chemistry. The problem is taking advantage of that magic: SDI is a proven path to accomplish the task at hand and the video processor will also elevate the performance of other components as well.
As long as there is a desire for SDI, the "boxmakers" will provide -- I guarantee it. Think about it: how much clamor did they hear from the general public to incorporate such a connection in the first place? Nada. Zip. Zero. None. It was the meaningless (percentage-wise) nut-cases, like themselves, that expressed the desire for better. Voila, it was done.
Don't look for SDI to go away in video processors until at least a year after
The blue laser players coming in 2006 will be able to play today's DVDs, but at what quality? Just as DVD players were able to play CDs (but were rather awful at it), these new players may (or may not) be crappy at handling yesterday's technology. If you have a player such as the DVD-5900, you know you have excellent internal chemistry. The problem is taking advantage of that magic: SDI is a proven path to accomplish the task at hand and the video processor will also elevate the performance of other components as well.
As long as there is a desire for SDI, the "boxmakers" will provide -- I guarantee it. Think about it: how much clamor did they hear from the general public to incorporate such a connection in the first place? Nada. Zip. Zero. None. It was the meaningless (percentage-wise) nut-cases, like themselves, that expressed the desire for better. Voila, it was done.
Don't look for SDI to go away in video processors until at least a year after
My understanding is that the 5900 exhibits the problem to a greater extent and with more displays than the 3910 does. Is there some hardware difference between the two that Denon is unable to correct in the 5900?
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I agree with Joe, don't buy the 5910, even if you can afford it, my reason being if you already own the 5900, SDI and the iScan can be had for $15-1600 and you can scale other sources.
If you can get a good price for the 5900, then maybe I would go with the 5910, but then you lose the capability to scale other sources.
I've had a 5900 for over a year and the MB problem was mildly annoying. Finally SDI'ed the player and purchased the iScan unit and I couldn't be happier, and again, I can scale other sources as well.
Unless you can get $15-1800 for the 5900(not likely) then the SDI route makes sense, to me anyway. This approach may give a little PQ to the 5910, but since you have the 5900 in hand and the added versatility with iScan just seems like a better route to go.
This setup will last me until HD-DVD or BRD finally comes out, no question about it in mind.
Plus, the 5900 is a great audio player as well, while it's important to me, it may not be to others.
| Originally posted by needspeed Does it make sense to do an SDI mod on this unit and add a DVDO HD with SDI or should I just start over again. I can't say I trust Denon very much with my money, even though I can afford a 5910. |
If you can get a good price for the 5900, then maybe I would go with the 5910, but then you lose the capability to scale other sources.
I've had a 5900 for over a year and the MB problem was mildly annoying. Finally SDI'ed the player and purchased the iScan unit and I couldn't be happier, and again, I can scale other sources as well.
Unless you can get $15-1800 for the 5900(not likely) then the SDI route makes sense, to me anyway. This approach may give a little PQ to the 5910, but since you have the 5900 in hand and the added versatility with iScan just seems like a better route to go.
This setup will last me until HD-DVD or BRD finally comes out, no question about it in mind.
Plus, the 5900 is a great audio player as well, while it's important to me, it may not be to others.
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DPIC (DENON Pixel Image Correction) is one of the main differences, which I assume is implemented in hardware. I wonder if it's applied post Faroudja or whether it's applicable equally to I/P.
Another difference relating to analogue video output, is the frequency response. Maybe it's been engineered to mask MB in analogue output, or maybe it's fortuitously beneficial.
| Originally posted by uzun My understanding is that the 5900 exhibits the problem to a greater extent and with more displays than the 3910 does. Is there some hardware difference between the two that Denon is unable to correct in the 5900? |
Another difference relating to analogue video output, is the frequency response. Maybe it's been engineered to mask MB in analogue output, or maybe it's fortuitously beneficial.
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Opening up a Dvd player and modifying the hardware to circumvent the players copyright protection devices has to be against the law.
The HDCP circuitry is being circumvented.
Now I know that you guys are only seeking better performance, but breaking the law is breaking the law. It is only a matter of time before the authorities clamp down on this.
Tapping the SDI signal is the optimal method for professional pirates to copy Dvds to a SDI recorder. Even the newly announced Macrovision Dvd scheme cannot stop this.
It is surprising that the AVS forum allows for this type of hardware crack posts.
http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/iclp/dmca1.htm
| Originally posted by Bytehoven I would also remind others, SDI support is really a hack and may not receive the best support on future external processors. |
The HDCP circuitry is being circumvented.
Now I know that you guys are only seeking better performance, but breaking the law is breaking the law. It is only a matter of time before the authorities clamp down on this.
Tapping the SDI signal is the optimal method for professional pirates to copy Dvds to a SDI recorder. Even the newly announced Macrovision Dvd scheme cannot stop this.
It is surprising that the AVS forum allows for this type of hardware crack posts.
http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/iclp/dmca1.htm
Quote:
I think you are being a bit of a weeny here. None of us are discussing using SDI for illegal copying of source material. I for one am trying to overcome a notable flaw in a $2000 DVD player that should never have been allowed out of Denon QC (If there is such a thing). I think you are completely missing the point when the above poster mentioned "Hack" he meant a Rube Goldberg solution, not some underground society of "Hackers" who rip DVDs and post them on the web or stand in trench coats on corners hawking stolen content.
I have a right to get what I paid for and I consider the 5900 unfit for purpose based on a major flaw and its high-end price. SDI is a legitimate way to fix the performance issues, since Denon has not and apparently cannot/will not do so........Steve
| Originally posted by reincarnate Opening up a Dvd player and modifying the hardware to circumvent the players copyright protection devices has to be against the law. The HDCP circuitry is being circumvented. Now I know that you guys are only seeking better performance, but breaking the law is breaking the law. It is only a matter of time before the authorities clamp down on this. Tapping the SDI signal is the optimal method for professional pirates to copy Dvds to a SDI recorder. Even the newly announced Macrovision Dvd scheme cannot stop this. It is surprising that the AVS forum allows for this type of hardware crack posts. http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/iclp/dmca1.htm |
I have a right to get what I paid for and I consider the 5900 unfit for purpose based on a major flaw and its high-end price. SDI is a legitimate way to fix the performance issues, since Denon has not and apparently cannot/will not do so........Steve
Quote:
Why do you think this solution would give a little bit on PQ to the 5910?????
| Originally posted by keenan I agree with Joe, don't buy the 5910, even if you can afford it, my reason being if you already own the 5900, SDI and the iScan can be had for $15-1600 and you can scale other sources. If you can get a good price for the 5900, then maybe I would go with the 5910, but then you lose the capability to scale other sources. I've had a 5900 for over a year and the MB problem was mildly annoying. Finally SDI'ed the player and purchased the iScan unit and I couldn't be happier, and again, I can scale other sources as well. Unless you can get $15-1800 for the 5900(not likely) then the SDI route makes sense, to me anyway. This approach may give a little PQ to the 5910, but since you have the 5900 in hand and the added versatility with iScan just seems like a better route to go. This setup will last me until HD-DVD or BRD finally comes out, no question about it in mind. Plus, the 5900 is a great audio player as well, while it's important to me, it may not be to others. |
Why do you think this solution would give a little bit on PQ to the 5910?????
Quote:
Joe, you might agree we are talking about the overlap of a professional broadcast standard, into a consumer product line. Such overlaps occur from time to time. The problem... these overlaps can come and go because they are non-standard to the consumer product.
You might also consider how long it took SDI to make it's way into the products were are talking about.
So while I agree with your SDI & HD-SDI professional standards assesment, we are at the mercy of a very different momentum, for these connectivity standards to be made available on non-professional products.
| Originally posted by Joe Murphy Jr You're right, hack is too harsh a word. SDI, in both SD and HD form, is a professional broadcast standard. It ain't gone nowhere for a long time. |
You might also consider how long it took SDI to make it's way into the products were are talking about.
So while I agree with your SDI & HD-SDI professional standards assesment, we are at the mercy of a very different momentum, for these connectivity standards to be made available on non-professional products.
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