[CA_Guy]

Unlike TiVo, Replay has a '30 second skip' button. I presume that most folks use that button to skip commercials. Considering that modern VCRs have the ability to detect and automatically skip commercials, I'm wondering if anyone cares that PVRs have not adopted this feature. Posters in the TiVo forum indicate that many waited quite some time before switching over due to the lack of the ability to skip commercials (manually or automatically) on PVRs.


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CA GUY

 

[riker]

The VCrs that do that were not very good at it, and it takes an hour to remove the commercials from one show. With Replay, you type 3-QS and instantly skip the commercials in two key presses. How could ANYONE AT ALL lament that they switched from one to the other???


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-=- Glenn -=-

 

[jleavens]

I like the Commercial Advance function on my old VCR, but I MUCH prefer the instant skip that the Replay provides.

 

[ken.kipnes]

I agree. Commercial Advance on VCRs was a great idea implemented badly.


-ken

 

[ijprest]

I've never actually used a VCR with commercial advance? How do they work? Do they try to detect the lengthier "black" between the show and commercials?


I don't see how it would be possible to make a feature like this work 100% of the time (without help from the networks, which they'd certainly never give).

 

[Jon J]

Quote:

Originally posted by ijprest: I've never actually used a VCR with commercial advance? How do they work?

Mostly done with a simple, pre-programmed 30-second fast forward every time you press the button. So, the commercial skip really takes about 8-10 seconds (depending on how fast your fast forward is) unlike the Replay QuickSkip which is virtually instantaneous.

 

[DrJoe]

With 3.0 (Yay! Showstopper is finally getting it!) you have the capability for doing 3 minute skips (#-skip) -- no more press-press-press-press!



Joe

 

[CA_Guy]

Quote:

Originally posted by riker: The VCRs that do that were not very good at it, and it takes an hour to remove the commercials from one show. With Replay, you type 3-QS and instantly skip the commercials in two key presses. How could ANYONE AT ALL lament that they switched from one to the other???

I don't know what VCR you are talking about - but that's not how COMMERCIAL ADVANCE functions. COMMERCIAL ADVANCE 'identifies' the commercials during the recording. Upon completion of the recording, the location of the commercials is 'marked' on the video tape. During play back, when the marks are detected, the VCR skips thru the commercials and resumes play back of your show at the proper point.


The commercials are NOT 'removed'. They are recorded on the tape. There is now a dual deck VCR on the market that will "not copy" the commercials when dubbing a COMMERCIAL ADVANCE marked tape - and that works in real time; it would take 1 hour to dub a 1 hour show.


If you've used a decent quality VCR (not the $99 models) with the COMMERCIAL ADVANCE feature, then you should know what others are talking about (missing). However, unlike TiVo, the Replay units do have the '30 second skip' button and that goes a long way toward appeasing (prior) COMMERCIAL ADVANCE users.... but is still not the same as having the feature on your Replay.


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CA GUY

 

[CA_Guy]

Quote:

ijprest writes: I've never actually used a VCR with commercial advance? How do they work? Do they try to detect the lengthier "black" between the show and commercials? I don't see how it would be possible to make a feature like this work 100% of the time (without help from the networks, which they'd certainly never give).

Quote:

And Jon J replies: Mostly done with a simple, pre-programmed 30-second fast forward every time you press the button. So, the commercial skip really takes about 8-10 seconds (depending on how fast your fast forward is) unlike the Replay QuickSkip which is virtually instantaneous.

Sorry John J, your answer does NOT describe COMMERCIAL ADVANCE. You are, at best, describing commercial skip.


COMMERCIAL ADVANCE is a patented technology which detects certain audio and video characteristics in a broadcast (called events). These events are submitted to a processor which executes a patented algorithm. The algorithm first identifies individual commercials, then groups them into commercial groups. Certain commercials are intentionally not 'detected', such as 2 minute commercials.


The identification of commercial groups is typically performed during the recording. Upon completion of the recording, if there is time to do so before any (other) scheduled recordings, the VCR rewinds the recording and 'marks' the location of the commercial groups on the video tape. When the viewer plays back the recording, the marks are recognized and the commercial group is (optionally) automatically skipped. The commercials are recorded and can be viewed if desired.


Yes, the accuracy is not perfect.... but is damn close. It does depend on the type of show you are recording. If your a working woman who tapes the soaps each day, or a guy who watches the evening game shows, you'll find the technology works much better than a human can do with a remote, or a 30 second skip can do.


If this technology was added to Replay, it would be able to play back a broadcast and seamlessly remove the commercials. But, COMMERCIAL ADVANCE could be designed into Replay so that it emulates skipping tape during commercial groups. This way, if a viewer wants to watch the skipped portion of the recording, they can.


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CA GUY

 

[RandyL712]

I agree. Most people confuse the features COMMERCIAL SKIP and COMMERCIAL ADVANCE. You're dead on when you say that a Replay that auto-skipped past the commercials would be invaluable.

 

[ken.kipnes]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon J: Mostly done with a simple, pre-programmed 30-second fast forward every time you press the button. So, the commercial skip really takes about 8-10 seconds (depending on how fast your fast forward is) unlike the Replay QuickSkip which is virtually instantaneous.

As was pointed out above, this isn't true. The whole Commercial Advance thing was discussed at http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/001465.html


-ken

 

[Jon J]



Anyone else want to jump on??


I answered the question as I understood it. Sorry for having misunderstood.


Sheeeesh.


The August discussion was good. However, I wasn't here at the time it took place and didn't take the time to research the subject back three or four months since I assumed the original poster would have done that.


In the future I'll refrain from trying to help.

 

[The Robman]

It's true that Replay could add this feature relatively easily, but have decided not to for political reasons, but at least they gave us the QS button. TiVo decided not to even go that far for the same reasons, so there's obviously alot of pressure on these guys not to give us too much. Personally I'm surprised (and VERY pleased) that Replay has given us the n+QS feature, now you can tailor your commercial jumping to the tv station being watched, if this station uses 4 minute commercial breaks you use 4+QS, if that station uses 3 minute breaks you use 3+QS, if they use 3.5 minute breaks you use 3+QS+QS, it's so simple.


Anyone deciding not to make thw switch from their "VCR w/CA" because both PVR's lack true CA, simply hasn't tried it.


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Later,

Rob.
http://www.hifi-remote.com/

 

[CA_Guy]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Robman: It's true that Replay could add this feature relatively easily, but have decided not to for political reasons, but at least they gave us the QS button. TiVo decided not to even go that far for the same reasons, so there's obviously alot of pressure on these guys not to give us too much.

I can tell you the reasons certainly are NOT technical. Too bad the powers that be really can't see the bigger picture.

Quote:

Personally I'm surprised (and VERY pleased) that Replay has given us the n+QS feature, now you can tailor your commercial jumping to the tv station being watched, if this station uses 4 minute commercial breaks you use 4+QS, if that station uses 3 minute breaks you use 3+QS, if they use 3.5 minute breaks you use 3+QS+QS, it's so simple.

The length of commercial breaks (groups) is not a factor so much of which station you are watching. The time of day and whether the show is network-fed or syndication or local, has more to do with the break lengths.

Quote:

Anyone deciding not to make thw switch from their "VCR w/CA" because both PVR's lack true CA, simply hasn't tried it.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. And it does depend on what type of shows you watch and 'how' you watch them. I may for example tape several nights of a game show and then watch them all at once ... of which video tape offers more than a PVR. Now if want to watch sports like Monday night football, but delay it by 2 hours, then the PVR works better and I have to somehow manage manually skipping the commercials.


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CA GUY

 

[RandyL712]

Quote:

CA GUY wrote: I may for example tape several nights of a game show and then watch them all at once ... of which video tape offers more than a PVR.

Huh? A PVR does this with ease and finesse, plus you don't need to figure out what time the shows are on, don't need to worry about using that old tape again (how bad will the picture be THIS time?) or wasting $1-2 on a new tape, and you don't need to rewind!


Do you own a PVR?

 

[CA_Guy]

Quote:

CA_GUY wrote: I may for example tape several nights of a game show and then watch them all at once ... of which video tape offers more than a PVR.

Quote:

RandyL712 replied: Huh? A PVR does this with ease and finesse, plus you don't need to figure out what time the shows are on, don't need to worry about using that old tape again (how bad will the picture be THIS time?) or wasting $1-2 on a new tape, and you don't need to rewind! Do you own a PVR?

1. PVRs do NOT automatically skip the commercials.

2. I set the recording for "daily" and it's a done deal.

3. No nightly phone calls to update anything.

4. The VCR can be programmed to whatever channel I want, even if it is from a cable system not listed, or from an "out-of-town" or low power station I receive on an antenna.

5. While game shows look "ok" after being digitally compressed, Monday Night Football sure looks like hell, even at the highest bit rate.

6. YES. I own BOTH a TiVo and a Replay. I like Replay 'better', but only because of the 30 second skip. I can't get it to know the channels I receive over the air or the cable company I subscribe to. No luck with tech support.

7. Every form of recording has 'artifacts'. Yes tape wears out sooner than a hard disk; but I can record an unlimited number of shows on tape before watching them. I don't buy cheap tape, use lousy VCRs or record at EP speed. The quality I get is very "reliable".


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CA GUY

 

[PRMan]

Wow, I guess we were wrong. There is someone who likes a VCR better.


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PRMan

 

[The Robman]

This guy reminds me of one of those "special interest" political guys, you know the kind, they know nothing about defence, economy or firiegn affairs, but they know absolutely everything about the Tibetian Rain Forest.


Of course, he could just be a troll in disguise.


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Later,

Rob.
http://www.hifi-remote.com/

 

[TomCat]

Are we still talking commercial skip or have we moved on to something else?


For those who may be interested there was a technology for VCR's in the early 90's I believe that actually did remove commercials as the show was being recorded...but it didn't do a very good job, which is likely why it disappeared quickly. The algorithm used wasn't all that sophisticated, but it was creative. The mechanism would look for a dip to black followed by a second dip to black 28-32 seconds later. If it found the second black it judged the preceding 30 seconds to be a commercial, rewound to the point the "commercial" began, and began recording again, effectively editing out that commercial. It would repeat this process for every "commercial" it identified.


The biggest flaw in this plan is that today any commercial break may have any number of events in it and they may be any length; 30's and 60's as well as 5's, 10's, 20's, 120's and 15's...all of which would be missed by this device unless some occasional combination of them totalled 30 seconds. Furthermore, modern TV master control operations don't religiously fade to black going in and coming out of, or between commercials like they did 15 years ago...any two events may butt up against each other with no dip to black between them. The other problem is that there can occasionally be portions of the program that are defined as commercials and dutifully removed, which would be highly annoying.


This technique actually may not have been much more than a laboratory curiosity, but I found it a clever (if misguided) approach, and thought maybe others might, too.

 

[jleavens]

Quote:

makes you wonder why someone hasn't created a VCR/PVR with 128MB (or more)of buffer RAM - the tuner goes through the MPEG codec, which outputs to the RAM buffer. a commercial advance algorithm scans the video signal in the buffer for 15/30/45/60/90/120-second commercials, and if anything matches its algorithm, it dumps it. and meanwhile, the device just records (using whatever long-term storage medium) off of the tail end of the buffer.

Uhm, mostly because the algorithm is only about 90-95% accuracte. There are a lot of instances (like the end-scene-over-credits you find at the end of sitcoms these days) and you'd rather it recorded the program than to not have a chance of seeing it...


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Remember, it's just television...