[snipe]

First let me thank you all for the great resource of information I have found here on AVS. I spent 4 hours yesterday just reading up on the Canon SX50. This site was recommended to me in my search for knowledge and I feel very lucky to have found it.


I am a computer person, as I am sure many of you started out as, who has been thrown into the position of planning and purchasing a projector based theatre environment. I deal with A/V to some degree, but it has generally all been computer based. So I am at a loss here.. and was hoping I might get some suggestions from you all.


the room we are looking at converting into a theatre is around 20'x20' with 12' ceilings. While all ambient light -could- be diminished, some will be required so visitors will not stumble or fall when getting up/sitting down during viewing.


The items needed (so far as I have concluded):





Projector - preferably LCoS (considering the Canon SX50) but will settle for a nice LCD (because or audience is large and varied, I'd rather not use DLP) we need something that will make our videos look very nice. The projectors main purpose will be for video and it is what I want the largest investment to be in.


Screen - Fixed Frame with 4:3 ratio (90 x 120 but will need to take measurements and figure in seating distance/arrangement). This will obviously be dependent on the projector itself, and as I am considering the SX50, I was also considering a Stewart Gray/Fire high contrast screen to hopefully make up for low (1000:1) contrast rating.


If needed: a quiet box for the projector (Canon SX50 seems to be quite loud). Anything and everything can be built, my boss is a master carpenter so anything I need he can put it together.


Now audio is where I really get lost.. I could easily enough just grab a nice set of JBL's and set them up for 7.1.. but I would really appreciate feedback as to what speakers for this size of a room and the most recommended brand. Again we want a very impressive presentation so a nice set of speakers is crucial. Preferably wall-mounted, even if we have to build mounts that is not a problem.


Amp/Receiver, I assume with a 7.1 set I won't need an additional amp so everything can connect directly into the receiver. There are so many.. how do I decide? I realize this is an important factor so quality counts and I want it to last.





Connected to the system will be the following components:


Standard component DVD player

VHS deck - for those rare occasions

HTPC and inputs for a laptop


The primary use will be for DVD though. HD is nice but not really needed (as we ourselves are not equiped to deal with HD video productions).



Additional items I am looking for would be an automation device, touch screen LCD would be grand, connected to a HTPC system which is storing the video files directly. So a visitor can select the video they wish to watch and automatically start it themselves. I really don't know how feasible this would be, or what software would be required to set it up. Alternatively if there would be a way to simply setup a programmable wall mount (RF/IR) with buttons which correspond to specific DVD's in a DVD changer.. that way we can make labels and people just press the button for which ever DVD they wish to view. (I am hoping the projector can be powered on/awakened in the same process).



My budget for this project is capped at $20,000.00. As this will be funded through a grant I will not have purchasing power probably until early next year (but my itemized list must be turned in soon for the grant). So exact specific models may not be entirely important as they may very well change by next year. What is important is the basic concept of each item and the realistic price range for the quality I am looking for. Of course I will do all of that, so please post brands and models so I can research and read on each one.





I hope this isn't too big of a request for everyone.. I am just lost and need some guidance.. I do truly appreciate the help. I hope I have been concise enough in what I am trying to accomplish.

 

[orangebang]

I think you lost everyone at "First..."

 

[CptnRandy]

Welcome!


First D), you've started with enough lead time that you can plan adequately. Lots of people get excited by this "hobby/obsession" and want to do it NOW.


Next, you've got some unique and interesting requirements and possibilities. Since this is a museum and not a home, you have some different considerations that might actually make your project easier.


For example:

1 - you videos are primarily or exclusively 4:3 - so you don't need to provide for widescreen commercial movies. I might be tempted to have a way to still exhibit widescreen, but not to the exclusion of getting the best for your primary purpose.


2. Audio - it's unlikely that you'll need much more than stereo. 7.1 is cool, but do the videos you'll be showing have anything beyond stereo?


3. Seating - you'll need comfortable seating, but not recliners - so commercial grade theater seats should work great.


I'm not a big fan of HTPCs - they're for enthusiasts and require continual tinkering. I'm not sure they're ready for commercial application. On the other hand, once you have your programs set up, you probably won't change them much.


I'd recommend taking all of your videos and creating a single DVD. Let the DVD menu be your on screen guide.




Good luck and have fun!


Randy

 

[snipe]

Hey thanks for responding,


As you pointed out 4:3 is our primary focus, but we may be doing some film making in 16:9 so I was thinking of creating an automated masking system for the screen.. this can all come later though.


I think I'm settled on Projector and Screen so really my main focus point right now is your second bullet: Audio.


I agree 7.1, or even 5.1 is probably not needed but I'd rather have 5.1 than not, even if the majority of viewing is simply stereo sound (we employees would like our own private screenings, which may often benefit from 5.1).


So for Audio/Video management I am considering the Devon AVR-2805, it seems to have the right connections for a decent price. Though I am open to suggestions and reasons why this would not be the best choice (or why it would).


Which leads me to where I am completely lost.. speakers. Brand wise everyone I've spoken too has recommended JBL (with the exception of the BestBuy employee insisting on Bose... ) yet I am having a hard time deciding what speakers, JBL or not, would be powerful enough to drive a room that size. I'd like to mount L-R / F-B in the four corners and have a center one perhaps over/under the screen. Not quite sure about the Sub but I'll figure out something. I'd like to go uniform, all speakers from the same company.. so any and all suggestions are appreciated. Is JBL the way to go, if so, what product line? Is the HT series any good?


I want it to have crisp clear, well driven sound which is audibly impressive.. so I don't want to skimp much on the speakers/audio system.


As far as the HTPC I understand your view.. my thoughts were (because we do in-house video editing) we could transfer the video over the LAN to the HTPC and do previews of our productions.. But I am thinking perhaps just a laptop will be fine. I must also remember I may not be here forever, and should implement a system which will be easily understood and operated.


Edit: hmm.. how about the RBH MC series?

 

[snipe]

ok well I just got off the phone with an RBH rep and he suggested the following


5 x SI-770 (RL/FB/C)

2 x 1010-SE


and he said I should probably avoid getting a powered reciever and instead get an external amp 200-300 watts..


Is this pretty good advice?

 

[bpape]

Probably. Also, if audio quality is important to you, don't mount the speakers in the corners. If you want 5.1, mount them according to Dolby recommendations.

 

[snipe]

bpape, point taken..


So if I go the route of the RBH's (around $6,000 for the set) what amp and reciever would you suggest to drive them?


Also, are the RBH good for this price range or could I get similar quality for less?

 

[David Guill]

Snipe,


For this venue you would want to definitely go with more commercial grade components. For amplifiers look at Crown , Mackie or Behringer. I like Crown. They are built like tanks, take a licking and you can't destroy them. Oh yeah they sound good too. These amps will power any speakers. I guess RBH is your selection but I am curious, if you wanted in-walls why don't you get the SI-760 which is the in-wall version of the SI-770. Stay away from Bose and Best Buy also... definitely 7.1 but you probably should use 3 or 4 subwoofers.


Anyway now that you have amps to power the speakers you will need a front end processor to handle the audio and video signals from the sources and to distribute them to the various speaker channels and video display devices. Scratch the Denon AVR 2805 because it is a receiver which has both premap/processor and amplification. With the Crown Amps you do not need amplification, besides the Denon amplifiers sound very tinny and harsh (my opinion). For your surround processor look at the B & K Reference 50 although you should go with a mixer and PC storage of your media. Its more professional.

 

[snipe]

David Guill, thanks for the response.. which Crown would you recommend for use with both the B&K Reference 50 and the RBH speakers (in a 5.1 setup)?


As for the SI-760's I'll look into them, thanks.


Edit: What about matching the Reference 50 with the Reference 200.5 5-Ch Amp? Would it result in any benefit (is this even a good amp?) ?

 

[David Guill]

Snipe,


The Crown CE-1000 is a solid robust amp that is 275W per channel, it is a 2 channel model that can handle a 2 ohm load. Yes the B&K amps are great sounding amps but the Crown amps are made to be played continually in a commercial venue. Being a museum, If the system is going to be running 5 or more hours a day then a commercial amp is the way to go. Also if people will be handling the system who are just employees, they will not care for them the way an owner will. In that case these amps are very forgiving whereas a residential amp is usually more tempremental.

 

[snipe]

David, thank you very much, that is exactly what I needed to know.

 

[snipe]

ok, forgive my ignorance.. but will I need 3 of these Crown CE-1000's to power a 5.1 setup? =\\

 

[bpape]

At least. That assumes just 1 sub and that the 1000 will do it.

 

[David Guill]

Yes, get 3 of the Crown CE-1000s. That is also a yes to bpape one of the amp channels can be used for a subwoofer. For the subwoofers I would use the Hsu Research TN1220HO Get one TN1220 (it is a passive sub) and use the free Crown Amp channel to power it and then get the dual TN1220HO with 500 watt amplifier also. This will give you 3 subwoofers for your arrangement. Then send an email or ask to talk to Dr Hsu about placing the subs in your room. He will ask you for the room layout and provide you some excellent advise.

 

[Till]

First and foremost, I still don't understand why he should have lost everyone at "First". Does orangebang just have a very short attention span (watch too much TV as a child? ) or what? Can someone explain please?


As an art historian and avid museum goer as well as HT-phile I have a couple of cents to add.


Safety first. I take it the architectural budget is not included in the $20k, right? You'll want clearly marked exits, runway lights and NO obstructions of the flight path, i.e. no speakers sticking out or standing around. That makes for either ceiling or in-wall speakers and subwoofers in cabinets that are securely integrated into the front stage or room corners.


Longevity and ease of handling come second. I'd second the pro amps and I'd go for speakers with a five to ten year guarantee. Ease of handling requires either a very basic system or a complicated custom programmed yet user controlable interface. I'd go for the very basic system because the latter method might swallow 5k. Your idea of a DVD changer and a remote control (perhaps wire rather than IR/RF) sounds good. The actual equipment should be stowed away in an adjacent space or if that's not possible in a well vented and locked box or in-wall rack.


Acoustics are a concern in such a space, especially with the square room dimension and the ceiling height that is a multiple of the 4ft module already present in the 20ft room length/width. You will have to build risers anyway and that should help, but do consider spending around 2k for room treatment. 6k speakers are overdone for this purpose, I'd say. You'll get better sound with 4k speakers and 2k room treatment. Try RPG Diffusors for the room treatment. Also, you'll want a heavy duty carpet so that the footstep noise of people going in and out doesn't bother the other viewers. Room colors should be as dark as possible to create a theatre environment and provide the best projection conditions. Go for nothing else but a completely black screenwall and ceiling. You are aiming for maximum intelligibility and even sound pressure. this is certainly easier to achieve with a 7 speaker system. So I might suggest a 7.2 configuration with corner loaded subwoofers. Anything else wouldn't be very practical anyway and more subs will be overkill. Have the subs adjusted rather too low than too high. Speech intelligibility is the priority in a museum.


For surround processing and room eq I'd consider a 7ch receiver used as a pre/pro. Look into the $1k -2k range of Pioneer. They are always fully equipped and very competitive at their price level, plus they have a great room eq feature that really works and good 7ch stereo sound for equal sound pressure.


It's also very important to avoid light spill from people entering or leaving the room. Think of a double door or curtain construction like in commercial theaters if space permits. A little proscenium stage is good for preventing stupid idiots from soiling your costly screen and since you have a carpenter on hand it shouldn't be problem. You'll need two risers if you have three rows. Make sure the risers are really high enough to give good clearance. That shouldn't be an issue, either, with 12ft ceiling height.


Firing up the projector usually takes one or two minutes. If people don't know that, they'll think something is not working and ask for assistance. That creates nuisance and cost in personnel. So you either need something to hold their attention and announce the wait time or you need to avoid the wait time. The latter is easier to achieve. You need a projector with very good lamp life or very cheap lamps so that the lamp can stay in standby mode for the day. Usual PJ lamp life is c. 2000h so with eight hour days that gives you roughly eight moths of lamp life. Replacement cost is around $300-400 per bulb for many projectors. Count that into maintenance budget.


If your museum visitors are elderly people or non-english speaking folks or hearing impaired people you might need little radio-controled headphones with different language tracks or at least an LED band above the screen so they can read subtitles in another language (on screen subtitles for the hearing impaired will be in English anyway). With three rows of five seats you could get 15 people into a 20x20 room. So count another 2-3k if you need that kind of equipment. Have it installed professionally and make sure you do all the wiring strictly to code since this is a public space.


If the equipment is not in an adjacent storage room, make sure the box or rack is directly by the entrance (ideally at the back of the room) so that your staff can get in and out quickly without disturbing the screening too much.


Sorry for the mish-mash of tips but those are the things and mistakes that I see over and over again in museums around the world and it's a pity. Fortunately this museum has someone like you to take care of it and do research before spending some donors money. By the way, a 5k PJ that's not the latest model is a far better investment than a 10k PJ that is the latest model because these things depreciate so fast you wouldn't believe it.


Good luck,


Till

 

[japanesegeek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Till By the way, a 5k PJ that's not the latest model is a far better investment than a 10k PJ that is the latest model because these things depreciate so fast you wouldn't believe it.

While they do depreciate quickly, they are also improving rapidly so this complicates matters considerably when trying to figure out what is the better value. I would suggest you arrange your spending so that you feel comfortable replacing your projector every 3 years or so.

 

[Till]

Of course, depreciation and improvement are connected. That's clear. Adjusting for buying a new one every three years might not be a bad idea. The question is whether it is necessary in this kind of setting to be on top of the performance game. Maybe every five to seven years would be enough. If the projector has a good enough quality to do what you need to do, why change it? The visitors will probably not notice unless the technological gap has become so big that it would be analogous to having a 60's B/W TV in the room.


The equipment in commecial movie theaters doesn't get changed every three years, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong. And there the sound and image are even more important than in a museum installation because people expect good sound and image in a movie. In a museum they expect good content delivered in a good enough way so that they can comprehend it and enjoy. An HT-phile experience is not necessary. I think with his budget if it's just for electronics and if he spends it wisely, he can come up with an installation that is superior to anything I've seen in museums except the Louvre. They do have fantastic auditoriums and screening facilities but they certainly cost several hundred thousand dollars.


Till