[KarolisD]


Hey guys,

 

I need your advice. At the moment my setup looks like this Harman Kardon AVR455 + Klipsch RF-52 II reference series speakers. I was going back and forth with small/large speakers setting on my receiver for my front and center speakers and now completely lost which way sounds better.

 

Is there any golden rule for the small/large settings?

 

Cheers,

Karolis

 

[BIslander]

Small is almost always better. Subs can be placed to optimize bass response while full range speakers have to be positioned for imaging, which may not be best for bass. Plus, using a sub reduces the load on the amplifiers.

 

[KarolisD]


Got it! Thanks

 

[arnyk]



Quote:
Originally Posted by KarolisD  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24471758


Hey guys,


I need your advice. At the moment my setup looks like this Harman Kardon AVR455 + Klipsch RF-52 II reference series speakers. I was going back and forth with small/large speakers setting on my receiver for my front and center speakers and now completely lost which way sounds better.


Is there any golden rule for the small/large settings?

If you have a subwoofer, then the small setting is almost always the best choice. There are virtually no so-called full range loudspeakers that are clean enough low enough to do anything but muddy things up if there is even a mediocre subwoofer in the system. Not even the larger floor standers!


If you don't have a subwoofer, conventional wisdom suggests the use of the large setting. However, any speaker system performs with less low frequency nonlinear distortion if you electrically roll off the bottom end.


In the case of the RF-52 speaker system, the two 5.25" woofers are pretty nice for midrange and upper bass, but they lack the cone area and volume displacement to play well below 60 or 80 Hz at higher SPLs.

 

[KarolisD]


I do have subwoofer - Klipsch SW 450

 

The speakers will be set as 'small' from now on.

 

[commsysman]

One basic problem that you have is that those Klipsch speakers are some of the worst-sounding speakers on the market.


Here are some of the things Home Theater Review said about the Klipsch "Reference" speakers:


"edgy and unnatural"


"shrill yet murky"


"lacked refinement and speed"


I have NEVER seen any other speaker ripped like that by a reviewer; it is almost unheard of.


Usually they try hard to say something nice, but the only thing good he could say was that they had decent bass.


There are all sorts of excellent speakers from PSB, KEF, Focal, and Monitor Audio, to name just a few, that will sound much much better, and don't cost any more.

 

[busb0y]

Normally I don't say much as I don't have much experience in the sound department, but your statement is a bit ridiculous. For the price the performance is fine for those speakers and the klipsch line in general. Can you beat them? Of course. But can you do it in the same price range? Possibly. The price range of the reference line has a lot of competitive options from other manufactures . Are they wailing banshees disguised as speakers as you alluded to? Of course not.


To add a bit of context you made the following comments in other threads about how an amplifier sounded


"To get a really good-sounding preamp will cost $2000 or more."


"The Marantz amplifier will definitely sound better IMO. On the other hand, there are much better-sounding amplifiers than the Marantz."


Perhaps you should have just told the original poster to get a new pre/amp as the sound quality of amps seems to be more in line with your area of expertise...

 

[prodigy1324]

I found the same thing yesterday while messing the the large and small speaker settings on my Yamaha Aventage 2010. I have Klipsch Forte IIs for my mains, and an RC 64II as my center, and even though the YPAO finds the speakers to be "large", which they visibly are, I notice a lot more of a fuller sound when I use the small speaker setting. I left it on the large setting, because I figured there's no way those speakers could be considered small. It sounds very good on either setting, but the small speaker setting appears to produce more bass, which is not necessarily something I'm looking for. Especially since my Klipsch Syergy 12 600W puts out more than enough.

 

[Skytrooper]

Had the same Large and Small experience this week. Adjusted the equalizer settings. My system sounded good both ways. Left it on small.

 

[Alan P]



Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy1324  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24483252


I found the same thing yesterday while messing the the large and small speaker settings on my Yamaha Aventage 2010. I have Klipsch Forte IIs for my mains, and an RC 64II as my center, and even though the YPAO finds the speakers to be "large", which they visibly are, I notice a lot more of a fuller sound when I use the small speaker setting. I left it on the large setting, because I figured there's no way those speakers could be considered small. It sounds very good on either setting, but the small speaker setting appears to produce more bass, which is not necessarily something I'm looking for. Especially since my Klipsch Syergy 12 600W puts out more than enough.

You're not serious here, right?


"Large" and "Small" in bass management terms has absolutely nothing to do with the physical size of the speakers...but you knew that, right??

 

[prodigy1324]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24484606


You're not serious here, right?


"Large" and "Small" in bass management terms has absolutely nothing to do with the physical size of the speakers...but you knew that, right??

Yes, I'm serious. I wouldn't have described it the way I did if I weren't serious. Perhaps you'd like to stop by and hear it for yourself?? No, seriously...

 

[grasshoppers]



Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy1324  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24483252


I found the same thing yesterday while messing the the large and small speaker settings on my Yamaha Aventage 2010. I have Klipsch Forte IIs for my mains, and an RC 64II as my center, and even though the YPAO finds the speakers to be "large", which they visibly are, I notice a lot more of a fuller sound when I use the small speaker setting. I left it on the large setting, because I figured there's no way those speakers could be considered small. It sounds very good on either setting, but the small speaker setting appears to produce more bass, which is not necessarily something I'm looking for. Especially since my Klipsch Syergy 12 600W puts out more than enough.

So...it sounds better when set to small...that's cuz the bass freqs are being sent to the sub,which allow your mains to

Play cleaner and "fuller" after being relieved of playing said bass freqs. This concept is called "bass management"

Unfortunately AVR company's use the term "small" (bass mgmt ON) & "large" (bass mgmt OFF) which has, OBVIOUSLY

Caused plenty of confusion. Very apparent in your case...sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy1324  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24486765


Yes, I'm serious. I wouldn't have described it the way I did if I weren't serious. Perhaps you'd like to stop by and hear it for yourself?? No, seriously...

As a member of this forum for 18 months, I am actually surprised you haven't figured this out.

 

[prodigy1324]



Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24486968


So...it sounds better when set to small...that's cuz the bass freqs are being sent to the sub,which allow your mains to

Play cleaner and "fuller" after being relieved of playing said bass freqs. This concept is called "bass management"

Unfortunately AVR company's use the term "small" (bass mgmt ON) & "large" (bass mgmt OFF) which has, OBVIOUSLY

Caused plenty of confusion. Very apparent in your case...sorry.

As a member of this forum for 18 months, I am actually surprised you haven't figured this out.

Well, thanks for the feedback. I joined 18 months ago when I was first getting into HT stuff. But I had a motorcycle accident not long after, and have had other things come up that I had to focus on as well. I just got back into HT a few weeks ago, so there was about a 16 month lapse since I visited AVSforum.com.


As for my original post, I only said what I did because the general consensus amongst other posters was that, in mostly all applications, the mains should be set to small. This is slightly confusing since the size of my mains are quite large. But, like I said, it really sounds good with either setting, so I will leave my fronts and center channel set to large.

 

[grasshoppers]



Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy1324  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24487373



This is slightly confusing since the size of my mains are quite large. But, like I said, it really sounds good with either setting, so I will leave my fronts and center channel set to large.

Once again it has NOTHING to do with the physical SIZE of your mains!!!! Bass mgmt on or bass mgmt off.

It's that simple. I see you are looking at DIY room treatments,this will really help with what you are hearing.

All I am trying to to do is show you how to really optimize your system properly for best results.

You have a good subwoofer and it will play the bass notes louder and cleaner than your mains....everyday

Of the week!! Doesn't matter how "large" your speakers are.


I quoted this from Audioholics site which is linked in this forum at the top
http://www.avsforum.com/t/824554/setting-up-your-home-theater-101


"OK, I Get It But My Speakers Really Are LARGE!

For some, your main speakers may actually extend down to 30Hz or lower, especially if they include 10” or 12” side-firing low frequency drivers. The temptation will be to set these speakers to LARGE. The setting is there so there must be a place for its use, right? Actually, we recommend setting almost all speakers to SMALL, even if they are physically large floorstanding speakers. Here’s why: Even though those floorstanders have a low extension, they won’t necessarily go down to the lowest range of your subwoofer as linearly and free of compression (unless your main speakers have more piston area and box volume than your sub – but we won’t address that here) The problem with the LARGE setting is: the ultra low frequency information will not be heard if the speaker cannot reproduce it. Well if by some chance you were able to get your main speakers bass extension flat down to 20Hz, then adding the subwoofer on top of that would yield too much (up to 6dB) of bass output at the frequencies both are producing. Hence integration between the loudspeakers and subwoofer will be poor and the bass may be overpowering, sloppy and/or boomy.


As a practical example, Reference System 3 has a pair of RBH Sound 1266-LSEs which extend down to 32Hz. I have them set to SMALL and I set my crossover frequency to 60Hz. Because of this, the subwoofer handles everything up to 60Hz that would otherwise go to my front speakers. The front speakers are now freed up to concentrate on only 60Hz and up. The result is no lost information, less distortion, more headroom and a better overall sound."

 

[UndersAVS]

I don't understand all of the incredulous excitement over someone's association of the Receiver's speaker size setting with the visible size of the speaker. Certainly no reason to be snarky.


Bass frequency response is closely related to the size of speaker's drivers, and the dimensions of the speaker closely related to the size and number of bass drivers. Get snarky with manufacturers, not the poster who has yet to become an accomplished audio nerd.

 

[UndersAVS]



Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24487696


Once again it has NOTHING to do with the physical SIZE of your mains!!!! Bass mgmt on or bass mgmt off.

It's that simple.

That's not correct. Setting speaker size "large" in the Yamaha does not translate "bass management = off." The Receiver will still filter bass frequencies to the sub and utilize the bass crossover setting. The Yamaha will still utilize LFE bass management options.

Quote:
"The problem with the LARGE setting is: the ultra low frequency information will not be heard if the speaker cannot reproduce it. Well if by some chance you were able to get your main speakers bass extension flat down to 20Hz, then adding the subwoofer on top of that would yield too much (up to 6dB) of bass output at the frequencies both are producing. Hence integration between the loudspeakers and subwoofer will be poor and the bass may be overpowering, sloppy and/or boomy.

The reality is that when Yamaha YPAO sets the speakers "large", it will also set a crossover for the subwoofer at about 40Hz. YPAO will simultaneously EQ all of the speakers and adjust subwoofer level to mininmize overlapping bass frequencies. For music content, this can yield results ranging from excellent to poor. Depends on several factors. With most components, that config is less than ideal for movies. For movies, tt is almost always better to allow the subwoofer to handle frequencies below 80Hz with speaker setting on "small."

 

[kiwi2]



Quote:
Originally Posted by UndersAVS  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24487845


The reality is that when Yamaha YPAO sets the speakers "large", it will also set a crossover for the subwoofer at about 40Hz.

It does...???


Is this on newer models..??


My one of around 2007 vintage does not do what you say. If I set 'large' then play a 2ch CD nothing goes to the subs.

 

[UndersAVS]



Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24487916


It does...???


Is this on newer models..??


My one of around 2007 vintage does not do what you say. If I set 'large' then play a 2ch CD nothing goes to the subs.

I got the same results using both RX-V3900 and RX-V663 receivers (circa 2008) using tower speakers or bookshelfs in the front and or surrounds. Both speaker's frequency response is rated at around 40Hz.


How about your components?

 

[prodigy1324]



Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24487696


Once again it has NOTHING to do with the physical SIZE of your mains!!!! Bass mgmt on or bass mgmt off.

It's that simple. I see you are looking at DIY room treatments,this will really help with what you are hearing.

All I am trying to to do is show you how to really optimize your system properly for best results.

You have a good subwoofer and it will play the bass notes louder and cleaner than your mains....everyday

Of the week!! Doesn't matter how "large" your speakers are.


I quoted this from Audioholics site which is linked in this forum at the top
http://www.avsforum.com/t/824554/setting-up-your-home-theater-101


"OK, I Get It But My Speakers Really Are LARGE!

For some, your main speakers may actually extend down to 30Hz or lower, especially if they include 10” or 12” side-firing low frequency drivers. The temptation will be to set these speakers to LARGE. The setting is there so there must be a place for its use, right? Actually, we recommend setting almost all speakers to SMALL, even if they are physically large floorstanding speakers. Here’s why: Even though those floorstanders have a low extension, they won’t necessarily go down to the lowest range of your subwoofer as linearly and free of compression (unless your main speakers have more piston area and box volume than your sub – but we won’t address that here) The problem with the LARGE setting is: the ultra low frequency information will not be heard if the speaker cannot reproduce it. Well if by some chance you were able to get your main speakers bass extension flat down to 20Hz, then adding the subwoofer on top of that would yield too much (up to 6dB) of bass output at the frequencies both are producing. Hence integration between the loudspeakers and subwoofer will be poor and the bass may be overpowering, sloppy and/or boomy.


As a practical example, Reference System 3 has a pair of RBH Sound 1266-LSEs which extend down to 32Hz. I have them set to SMALL and I set my crossover frequency to 60Hz. Because of this, the subwoofer handles everything up to 60Hz that would otherwise go to my front speakers. The front speakers are now freed up to concentrate on only 60Hz and up. The result is no lost information, less distortion, more headroom and a better overall sound."

Once again, thank you for your feedback. I will admit that I had no idea that bass management was the main difference between the two settings. So I appreciate you pointing that out. Long story short, I used the YPAO feature of my amp to kind of do the initial setup of my room, then I fine-tuned by ear. Having said that, YPAO automatically set the mains and center to "Large", and put the remaining speakers to "Small". To be honest, I really do not care for the YPAO feature for several reasons. One of them being because it sees my sub as being like 35 feet away, when it's really only about 13. But it seemed good for setting the levels and whatnot. I will change the mains and center to small and take it from there. Thanks again.

 

[prodigy1324]



Quote:
Originally Posted by UndersAVS  /t/1522179/small-speakers-vs-large-speakers#post_24487809


I don't understand all of the incredulous excitement over someone's association of the Receiver's speaker size setting with the visible size of the speaker. Certainly no reason to be snarky.


Bass frequency response is closely related to the size of speaker's drivers, and the dimensions of the speaker closely related to the size and number of bass drivers. Get snarky with manufacturers, not the poster who has yet to become an accomplished audio nerd.

Hah, thank you. I was kind of sensing a bit of snarkiness myself. But I think he's just trying to help, so it's all good. I have no problem admitting that I'm still learning and don't know everything. I think any reasonable person would associate the "large" vs. "small" settings to the actual size of the speaker. Oh well. I didn't let it bother me, because like I said it really sounds good on either setting.