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Do you make an income installing and servicing these devices? Based on what you and others have said in response to my quest for data it seems as though this may be the case which may explain why Lutron is "just better" much in the same way HVAC experts dismiss self-installed minisplits.
Cmon, this is just showing your bias and agenda. I'm pretty sure he just is really happy with his Lutron system, but who cares if he also does something for a living? It has nothing to do with the facts and arguments supporting the value of what a Lutron system brings to the table.

You're trying to bring your personal preferences, anecdotal experiences and beliefs and apply them to everyone as some sort of universal truth.

You say "Lutron isn't going anywhere" but you don't know that. Larger & smaller entities alike have exited the Home Automation segment and left LOTS of people out in the cold with their investments. You also can't tell me that if they fold that your investment will continue working because it won't. Without Lutron servers your $60 smart switch becomes at $0.99 dumb switch.
We do know that. Lutron is very different than any other company in the space. They are the 800-lb gorilla in high end lighting with the patents and product line across many different markets, segments, all across the world. As for them exiting the residential market, their founder invented the first solid state dimmer in 1959, along with Lutron releasing the first IR controlled dimmer, first linear slide dimmer, first whole-home lighting control system, first customizable dimming system for different light sources, and the first 2-Way RF whole home lighting control system, etc etc....

Every company making RF switches is paying royalties to Lutron if they use things like polling. So yea, don't lump them in with other random companies that have withdrawn from the residential market or failed. Put some respect on their name, as they say.

They are also family owned privately held company, which allows for more longterm decision making. Anything is possible, but there is zero evidence based on 59 years of Lutron as a company to have any concerns about them suddenly exiting the residential space.

I see zero places that Lutron can improve my system so yeah... it comes down to cost. What am I paying for? Lack of competition and a proprietary protocol that will simply go away if Lutron ever goes under? Doesn't seem like a wise investment to me. When I ask someone why they do something and they can't give me a solid reasons as to why it's a better method than just "It's how we've always done it" I have a hard time accepting that as a real answer. When you tell me "It's just better in every way" and my system isn't deficient in any area... I kind of lump this into the same categorical answer. I don't seem to be getting tangible benefits in your "comparison" so let me take this conversation another way to try to explain your stance....
You have been repeatedly told what people who buy Lutron are paying for. Yet, you continue to say "all those things don't matter to me, so what am I paying for?". That's great for you, however, you do not represent everyone in the world and many people have different needs and preferences and would benefit from the features that have been repeatedly mentioned.
 

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So what are you getting for your money if you buy a Lutron system? (Not you in particular, I'm writing this for the normal posters without an axe to grind). Let me list a few that matter to me personally:

Reliability: Lutron has a ~60 year track record of best in class reliability. It's what they built their company on and virtually nobody with actual experience with Lutron products will dispute that. There are plenty of 20-30+ year old systems still running perfectly and they try to keep parts available for obsolete systems for 10-15 years. The latency is much lower than Z-Wave and when properly installed, commands are received and executed 100% of the time. Clear Connect uses a dedicated and heavily regulated frequency, the others do not. It's the most robust and reliable wireless system there is, period. Any disputing of this fact is just silly and disconnected from 20+ years of evidence and tens of thousands of reviews from end users of competing products.

No mesh network needed, no hops, no rebuilds, no firmware updates to fix bugs from the 100s of manufacturers trying to work with a standard that has lots of optional features and not every company properly implements. I (and apparently many others according to reviews) was lucky to get even 1-2 years from most of my Zwave switches. My Z-Wave hub recently got an update with like 80 bug fixes for all the devices from different manufacturers that weren't working as they should according to the spec.

An open system with 500 different parties will never be more reliable than a well-designed and implemented closed ecosystem like Lutron where they control the design, manufacturing, and testing of all software and hardware to work perfectly together. That's just a simple fact.

Customer support: Lutron has a ~60 year track record of exceptional customer and technical support: You want to speak to an actual engineer on the phone? Sure, no problem. Even their level one tech support people know more about their products than just about any other company I've dealt with. This is especially impressive for a company with thousands of employees. They will send you any part or product you need right away if there's even a question about whether or not it's functioning correctly. No RMA forms to fill out, no waiting to receive the product back, no credit card hold, etc.....

Ease of use: When you buy a Lutron product, you will not be a beta tester. The product will have already been thoroughly tested and should function as expected. Just plug and play, no research or forums needed. There won't be any 700 series Z-Wave style "fun" that takes months of updates to resolve.

Quality: You get high quality construction and 100% consistent finish with every product. This is a pretty basic standard that many companies fail to meet.

Picos, Picos, Picos: There is no other product even close to the size, versatility, reliability, and battery life. There's 30+ models to choice from with all the engraving and customizable options you could ever want. You can get them with a nightlight, control Sonos, shades, lights, appliances, etc. Use them on a tabletop, or add them to the an existing switch gang without cutting any holes, or stick them on any surface, move them around as often as you want. All with 10 years battery life and the same reliability as the rest of the system.

This is a benefit of designing a system with hub and spoke topography that can use both 1-way and 2-way RF devices.

User interaction: The switches and keypads are designed with attention to all the important details, like tactile feel. The Maestro style button has the best tactile feel of any switch I've tried. The SeeTouch keypads also have such a nice feeling when pressing the buttons with great tactile feedback. The buttons are rounded so it's easy to press the button you want and the engraving is angled upwards so it's much easier to read than an engraved flat button. You can also have spacing in between the buttons for areas were you need to press it quickly while you're walking. Little details like that make the all the difference compared to other options.

Custom engraving and backlight: There is nothing easier to use then keypads with engraved and backlit buttons, period. No previous knowledge of the system is required, no flipping the whole bank of switches trying to find the light you want. You see a button with the light icon and "Kitchen", you know exactly what you're turning on.

I've seen so many videos of people showing off their HA systems with all these banks of switches and to trigger a scene/action you have to triple tap the top or bottom of one of these switches (that all look the same) while touching the top of your head and standing on one leg at the same time. That's great if you live alone or want to take the time to train your family, but don't try to tell me it's just as easy as pressing a single button with a clear backlit label.

Not to mention how much easier it is to use a backlit keypad at night.

The TableTop keypads are another super useful and unique product. I have one by each bed, and also in the living room and theater to control the lights, shades, and scenes. They're engraved and backlit as well along with battery or plug in power. Very flexible.

Eliminate wall ache: Using keypads, you can eliminate large banks of switches everywhere. I plan to use hybrid keypads everywhere there would be more than one switch and place the excess dimmers/switches in a network room. That's not for everyone of course, but it's perfect for me. Even a simple room like a bedroom would need a 4-gang of switches: Lights, lamps, fan, shades. So I can eliminate three of those. It's even more useful for rooms like kitchens that have multiple layers of lights.

Options: Over 40 color options for switches/outlets/wall-plates. No other company offering Z-Wave or the like can even come close to that.

Interoperability: Lutron has published a very clear and easy to implement protocol so even though it's a closed system, it can be integrated with virtually any HA controller. Phantom keypads are a nice feature as well.

Consistency in the little details: All the shades raise and lower at the same speeds, large lighting events don't popcorn.

Shades: The Lutron shades are the quietest and have the best battery life on the market. They've also been the most reliable in my experience. The batteries last 3-5 years and the warranty is up to 7 years. They integrate perfectly with the rest of the lutron controls and system. No third party hub needed.

I could go on and on, but since I've already made this post way to long, I'll stop.

So yea, you're paying a lot more, but you're getting a lot more options, reliability, ease of use, aesthetics and more. It will not be worth it to everyone, but saying that there's no value in it is just ignorant.
 

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Impressive list. Fully agree.
and best of all, no Zigbee or Zwave.

All is made in house for their own system and tested to work in their own system. Not an open standard (eg Zwave) where various manufacturers make switches, etc that aren’t fully QC’d and can have spotty reliability.
 

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Oh and I’m not a dealer. Yes, just an enthusiastic owner of Lutron.
Being I came from a previous house with an entire ZWave system and have a home in northern Michigan with a newer Zwave system installed, I can tell you that zWave is good. Lutron, as mentioned, is just better, more reliable, dependable and integrates into just about all automation systems. No Zwave in Crestron (nor do I believe Savant, C4). .
 

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The Lutron fanbois in this thread are nearly overwhelming. Nearly.

Thanks for those who have attempted to sell me or anyone else on the merits of Lutron with lots of words but little to no substance. Bonus points awarded to those who saw the word walls that basically added no quantifiable data or logic to the conversation and yet labeled it "just better" even though they literally couldn't explain why. Again, if my experience is 100%... how can you possibly make it better? If my device response is nearly instant.. how much value you can you assign to hundredths of a second? Apparently a lot. This all assumes that there is even an advantage in these between Z-Wave Plus as it stands right now today and Lutron and I'm not even sure that's the case.

What a load of bovine excrement this thread has turned into from people claiming the Lutron was "superior in every way" and then not giving a single tangible way why it was better. Continuing to cite how long Lutron has been around as the sole reason it can't fail is idiotic at best. The landscape is littered with companies FAR more successful at what it does than Lutron that couldn't make it work but somehow they are the outlier, right? This idea that Lutron is, for whatever unquantifiable reasons, immune to that which has felled many far better organizations is comical. You go ahead and put your eggs in that basket but I see ZERO reason to the same. I'll spread my investment around a few organizations that must innovate, provide constant value propositions and innovate to earn my business.

Z-Wave is a unified technology that is licensed out to the Lutron's and company XYS's of the world. You want to make a device? Cool. You have to meet the defined requirements to make said device and it must meet predefined criteria. If you can't you don't even get to label your junk Z-wave. If you can and you fail through mismanagement or whatever other reason you longer make Z-Wave but others who can manage their own

Years ago I researched the differences between ALL of the various smart home technologies available. I wanted the best solution for the money available. Even years ago when Z-Wave was still in it's infancy it had a marketed edge in the fact that it wasn't a closed loop system that stifled ingenuity and development even if it came at the expense of slight sacrifices in performance. This delta at the time (we're talking many, many years ago) was pretty close. In fact, it was close enough that I opted for the "new kid on the block" because I saw the writing on the wall even then. I deployed a Z-Wave system which worked well and has only got better with time. I was able to expand my device coverage rapidly due to the lower buy-in per device.

The most recent step forward was with Z-Wave Plus (which ushered in a significant improvement on connectivity, responsiveness and overall robustness) has further solidified that decision. Based on what I'm reading here there are several people in this thread who have NOT experienced this latest advancement in Z-Wave technology. Even prior to this, my "delay" in responsiveness was almost non-existent. When I read about people bagging on the "delays" that were supposedly prevalent in Z-Wave compared to what I experienced first-hand in real life was... nothing. At least nothing noticeable w/o the aid of stop watches and spreadsheets.

Now that Z-Wave Plus is a thing, whatever delay existed is now non-existent. Fast forward several years and somewhere around one hundred Z-Wave devices I have in my system and I've been nothing but satisfied with my solution. There's are few aspects of my day-to-day life that aren't made better thanks to this system. Devices that Lutron doesn't make account for many aspects of my smart home automation solution that simply wouldn't exist otherwise. Incredibly useful safety features involving smoke detectors, flood sensors, window sensors, occupant status, day of the week, time of day, weather and many other factors I can't even begin to spell out exist with the Z-Wave solution. For many of these there's just a giant void and reason why you don't need it with a Lutron system. I can create complex (or simple) scenes which use so many different inputs & factors to automate my day to day life that wall switches (for the record, I don't have a single switch that does anything via double tap, triple tap or touching the top of my head while standing on one leg) and touchscreens suddenly & instantly become obsolete and outdated. Meanwhile, Lutron wants to make their switches more complex and complicated so you can manually do more things from said switch. Wouldn't you rather a system just know what you want to have happen rather than a switch with several inputs that require you to get off of your lazy but to manually tell the stupid thing what you want to have happen?

If all you need is dancing lights of varying color to respond instantly and you don't care about cost or what will happen should a single organization fail... Lutron is your solution. If what you want is the opposite of that plus a truly infinitely customizable system for EVERY aspect you use day-to-day and many you hope to never need (some could literally save your life) should the situation ever arise at a lower price point and more future-proof solution in terms of how many different entities are capable of carrying the torch should any one of them fail... Z-Wave (or various other protocols for that matter) is your choice. I, for one, chose Vera (specifically the VeraPlus) which has Z-Wave, Zigbee, Bluetooth, WiFi and other protocols so no matter what... I'm covered.

I normally avoided Lutron conversations since I had my solution in place after much research but I'm glad I popped into this thread when someone claimed Lutron was the next coming of the savior because it helped to confirmed all these years later that I made the right decision based on lots of unbiased and logical consideration.
 

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Welp, as they say...., ‘Ignorance is bliss’! Enjoy!
 
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The Lutron fanbois in this thread are nearly overwhelming. Nearly.
Calling people "fanbois" adds a lot to every discussion. Also ignoring literally every point I methodically made seems about right.

Except I'm far from ignorant to this topic.
LOL, I think your posts would disagree :ROFLMAO:
 

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Except I'm far from ignorant to this topic.
I read through the whole topic, and I think you made some good points for someone setting up a DIY system. You know what you want, and you found a product that works for you.

I’ve installed some Z-wave switches for homeowners, but I’ve never sold them, so I can’t argue for or against it.

I’ll offer my viewpoint as a contractor: I primarily sell Legrand devices; their WiFi & HomeKit lines, and mostly the RFLC devices that integrate with 3rd party control systems. I also sell some Lutron. My reason for only selling these two manufacturers, other than i think they are quality products, is the support channel. If I have an issue with a product, I’m usually not calling an 800 number, but instead I’m calling my product rep for each of those manufacturers. Again I’m mostly dealing with Legrand and their support is excellent.

There are a lot of nice and affordable DIY solutions out there, I just don’t want to take on the responsibility for a product I have no direct connection to.

And I’ll add that I do think Lutron has the most robust control system available in terms of hardware from a single manufacturer. Legrand’s Vantage line is a close 2nd, but no major manufacturer matches Lutron’s wireless system, and their variety of finishes in switch devices. I do know that Legrand is working on catching up. They’re close to releasing a Zigbee mesh control system in the US with wireless devices similar to the Pico remotes.

I think if I were not a contractor doing this for a living, I’d be more inclined to take the route you have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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The Lutron fanbois in this thread are nearly overwhelming. Nearly.
Update to this thread. I did go ahead with Zooz and a Hubitat hub. I made the purchase before most of the back and forth that came later on in the thread.

It's been a few weeks now in the new home. I'm still getting all of my automation set up, but I have set up just about all of the switches (39 set up). A couple of them just aren't connecting for the initial set up (I haven't spent a ton of time on them yet).

So far I'm having a lot of bugs. I'm primarily controlling the switches through Google mini's and that leaves several points of failure to go from the mini through a Circle router, to google app on hubitat, through hubitat to zooz switches. It's frustrating. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

The zooz switches do have a tab at the bottom of the switch I can pull out to disconnect power from the switch altogether to reset it. Doing so has resolved problems about 10 times in the past few weeks. But that's a lot of problems to have on something I should be able to set up and forget about :(. Anytime I can't reliably turn the light on and off from the switch, the problem was resolved by pulling out this tab and disconnecting power.

What's annoying about changing the lights from Google is when it doesn't work it shows me on the display (lenovo display or my phone) that the switch is not at the state I told it to switch to. I can then click the button on the display and it will sometimes switch the light. So yeah, just buggy.

When I ask google to turn off all lights, it takes a good 10 seconds to get through the list of 39 lights.

I'm hoping I can figure out how to resolve these bugs so my system is totally reliable. But as of yet, it is not. If I can get it figured out it will have all been worth it. I am a Windows fan, not a Mac fan. I'm fine with messing with more bugs and problems in exchange for the open source network. I'm very frugal so Lutron doesn't appeal much to me in that regard. But if I can't get these bugs worked out I will probably start regretting not having gone with Lutron.
 
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