AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
459 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
"electronic fatique" syndrome?


i have a mid-fi ht systems: denon pre/pro and power amps. $4k 5.1 speaker systems( many people say they sound bright, though not klipsch bright). i can listen to my sound systems at fairly high volume for hours without feeling fatique.


my friend's ht systems: top of the line sony receiver (non es version) and some mixed infinity and jbl bookshelves made in the early 90's. but everytime i listen to his sound systems at about the same level that i would listen to mine or watch the movie at his place, i have always had a ringing effect in my ears, feeling fatigue - after half an hour or so. i guess this what u call "electronic fatique".


given our rooms arrangement is about the same. we basically have the same room size and furnitures.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,614 Posts
What you are describing is distortion and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the amps. It is possible that the amps are clipped causing both the speakers to distort and the signal itself to distort... you are comparing apples and oranges by using different speakers and trying to hook the blame onto the amplifier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,518 Posts
Your comparison isn't even close. If the speakers were the same and you level matched the volumes, I'd bet your ears would not ring.


The speakers are most likely the culprit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,081 Posts
Ringing effect in ones ears is never a good thing.

This is a sign of the onset of possible hearing nerve damage, although it may be the temporary type.

But at any given time it can become full blown tinnitus, this is permanent

damage, just think how that would put a flaw in this hobby.

Many people have this type of hearing damage.

Just be careful, when ever you start getting that ringing, step away, turn it down or use some sort of hearing protection.

-Jerry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
459 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
hehe i know i don't exactly compare apples to apples. but assuming all amps sound the same. we basically have the same ht room (live in gated community where houses built alike), have same furnitures, same arrangement. taking all cables have no effect on sound.


so speakers is the only variable. (btw, amps power rating is the same too, 120wpc)


what i believe to be the problem with my friend systems causing hearing fatique is distortion, like scooter_29 mentioned. my question should had been that, are cheaper receivers and speakers prone to have this "ringing effect" or "electronic fatique" regardless how good the spec say?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,495 Posts
The non-ES Sony receiver is probably quite a bit more limited in power when driving all five of the speakers than your setup is, although it probably can provide close to rated power for stereo output. Did you compare them while listening in stereo mode?


-Steve
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,614 Posts
Its a very vague question... some speakers such as Klipsch can play exceedingly loud without distortion by nature of their design. Many $5-10k speakers cannot compete at high volumes and would distort as compared to a $1500 Klipsch... there is also a big difference between overdriving your speakers and overdriving your amplifier... Also, just because 2 amplifiers are rated at the same output doesn't mean they actually have the same output... Amplifier ratings almost never take the true load of a speaker into consideration (an 8 ohm speaker can dip to 4 ohms putting a bigger strain on the amp). There are amps out there with only 150 WPC at 8 ohms but can drive 1000 Watts into almost a dead short... so you see, it is still an apples and oranges comparison
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
While I relatively new to the world of home theater, I feel I am qualified to address the amplifier concerns your brought up. I am a former Technical Coordinator for Zapco, a manufacturer (and the company that invented) the high end amplifier for cars.


First of all, please do not assume that all amplifiers sound the same: they don't. This myth is perpetuated by people like Richard Clark of Autosound 2000. In my experience in comparing sound quality of different amplifiers, both car audio and home audio, there are definitely differences in sound quality. The most recent example is the comparison we did with the Sony versus Sony ES receivers. To my ear, the ES was a cleaner, more detailed, and less colorized unit than the non ES. The regular Sony tended to start sounding thermally distorted during the course of a typical movie, whereas the ES did not exhibit these thermal problems to nearly the same degree.


Without being able to listen to your set up with my own ears, I can't give you a reason why you are hearing what you hear. However, I would guess that the attribution of the problem could very well indeed be traced to your amplifier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,897 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Big Damn Dave


First of all, please do not assume that all amplifiers sound the same: they don't. This myth is perpetuated by people like Richard Clark of Autosound 2000.
The myth that well designed solid state amplifiers sound different is perpetuated by people who have a vested interest in perpetuating such a myth. Please, enlighten all of us here and explain precisely where Richard Clark's vested interest is in perpetuating the counter to this myth?


:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,755 Posts
Let's see, the two systems being compared use different receivers, different speakers, most likely different DVD/CD players, and are used in different rooms that were likely not carefully optimized to produce the best sound possible.


So when they don't sound the same, it proves that amps don't sound the same???


Even if the two receivers were connected to the same speakers in the same room and sounded different, it wouldn't prove that the amps sound different, as the difference could be in the digital processor/preamp section of the receivers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,512 Posts
Tom - How about same room, same speakers, same pre/pro (a Pioneer 49 TXi receiver), same cables, and different 2 channel amp?


I'm doing a no-risk 30 day audition of an amp compared to the receiver's onboard amp. Just started listening tonight and I can detect subtle but real differences. I'm withholding more info until I have the opportunity to listen to more and different types of music, including multi-channel. I'm not saying the amp is better yet.


I plan on raising this issue again in a new thread at the end of the weekend. I'm not convinced that differences, subtle though they may be cannot be heard. Thoughts from the objectivist side will be welcome in this thread as I will need to decide whether to keep the amp, try another route, or stay with the Pioneer. Even Sushi can post! ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Bigus.


The myth that well designed solid state amplifiers sound different is perpetuated by people who have a vested interest in perpetuating such a myth. Please, enlighten all of us here and explain precisely where Richard Clark's vested interest is in perpetuating the counter to this myth?
Bigus, why are you asking me this question (and why do you phrase it in such a condescending manner)? I don't know where Richard Clark's vested interest is! This question should be addressed to Richard Clark for it to be answered accurately. If you are someone who is of the opinion that all well designed (according your operational definition of such) sound the same, who am to argue with you? I am not going to presume to question your experience or your own testing. I'm sure that you have valid reasons to support your opinion.


In my experience with amplifers, particulary ones which fall into my operational parameters of "well designed" (a vast majority of which were dedicated amps designed for high end mobile audio applications), my ears tell me that there are indeed differences in the way many of them sound, albeit subtle in many cases. There were many other cases in which the differences were less subtle and more immediate. Like Mr.Clark does in his amplifier challenge, I made sure that level matching was correctly and accurately done, and that listening levels were set to be as close to identical as possible (given the precision and accuracy of the test equipment). I kept all other factors in my tests identical (same source unit, same other components and same listening environment, and if applicable, the same equalizer settings). Unlike Mr.Clark, I did not manipulate equalization for each amplifier tested. Obviously, the specific differences and the degree of said differences are subjective. Nonetheless, i could hear differences.


When I read the specifics of his challenge, everything he wrote made sense until I got the section in which he manipulates equalization. (I don't have the exact text with the phrasing he uses on file, nor do I feel like doing a search.) I do not agree with his methodology for the simple fact that he, the test moderator is manipulating each test. making changes in the signal. I am not saying he is wrong, or that his challenge is invalid, but I am saying that I disagree with the conclusions of his tests. The way I read his challenge, he ensures that sonic differences are rendered inaudible via manipulation of the signal upstream from the amplifier. In my opinion, doing this rigs his test so he can "prove" his claims.


Every person with whom I have spoken who beleives that amplifiers sound the same has based said opinion on Richard Clark's test. If your opinion is based on your own comparison testing, it is one I can certainly respect. However, it doesn't mean that I agree with you or anyone else who shares Mr. Clark's belief.


I am not going to get into any debates with anyone on this topic. It is unlikely those of you who diagree with me are going to convince me you're right anymore than I could convince of the validity of my testing and experience.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,897 Posts
I phrased my "question" the way I did because your first post on this forum was to proclaim that the view shared by many objectivists, and supported by much research, was a "myth." So I responded in kind, proclaiming your view was a myth.


I can appreciate your viewpoint however. We could argue the pros and cons of Mr. Clark's insistence on matching the frequency response of the amplifier candidates, but that is not necessary, as his test isn't the only such test/challenge conducted and others have not enforced that requirement.


Suffice it to say that this topic is as hotly debated in home audio/theater circles as it is apparently in car audio circles. I have only read of Mr. Clark's challenge due to the topic being discussed here, though I do have a recollection of his famous Grand National from my car audio days, so I was previously familiar with Mr. Clark himself. If I were to really argue with you about anything, it would be your assumption that it is his challenge that everyone here, or elsewhere for that matter, bases their objectivist viewpoint upon. Outside the car audio world, Richard Clark is not that widely known, and his "challenge" is but one bit of relevant information. There have been plenty of other tests, and plenty of other research by reputable engineers and scientists, to support such a view. Perhaps you are only familiar with the relatively small overall role Mr. Clark has played in this debate?


Oh well... you are certainly right about one thing, this debate won't end here, or anywhere else for that matter. So - I apologize for my somewhat rude welcoming to AVSforums... let me see if I can do better the second time around:

Welcome to the world of home audio/video, and to AVS forums in particular!


:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,755 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by ss9001
Tom - How about same room, same speakers, same pre/pro (a Pioneer 49 TXi receiver), same cables, and different 2 channel amp?
This is a good start. Now, after you have taken several days to listen to both and feel that you can identical different sonic characteristics of both, then subject yourself to a double-blind test and pass it, then you have something.


But if all of your comparisons are conducted under sighted or flawed blind conditions, then you might feel that you have convinced yourself there are differences, but you haven't proven anything.


Under sighted conditions, I feel I can hear differences almost every time. I have two amps that I have failed to tell apart three times in DBTs, but if I ran a sighted comparison tonight, I'm sure I would think I can perceive differences.


OTOH, I strongly perceive that there differences between my Parasound solidstate amp and my Cary EL84-based tube amp. And as I have passed two DBTs comparing them, I feel quite confident that there are real differences.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Thank you, Bigus, for the reply. You're right, the debate will not end here. Besides, the little I have read on this forum is demonstrative of the fact that we all have a passion for home theater. I am in learning curve mode on a lot of this stuff, but I feel very confident of my knowledge of the audio side of things. By no means do I claim to be an expert, but mobile audio systems I have tuned do consistently very well in competitive car audio circles. (In my mind, sound quality is far harder to achieve in a car than a home!) What's really cool is the fact when I am done doing my Internet nerd thing tonight, I can choose from one of TWO theaters in the house on which to watch a movie or TV!


For whatever it's worth Richard Clark takes a lot of credit for innovations on his Buick Grand National that he DID NOT create. The system in the car was built by Speakerworks in Orange, CA by the Holdaway family and purchased by Richard Clark. His claim to fame in the car audio world came when the car won the Master's Invitational $25,000.00 winner-take-all sound off and the IASCA World Finals soon after purchasing the car. He claims the car as though it was his creation ,when in fact it is not. It is a great car in that it set a precedent for excellence in car audio, but is was a benchmark system well before Richard signed the check to buy it. The folks at Speakerworks deserve the credit for what the car is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,417 Posts
I have never heard that said before I came to this board, and basically that is something that if someone says is a poker tell that they are just absolutely clueless to the point that trying to help would mean the person trying is also stupid.


If you believe that, then you are beyond help and save the money and enjoy the noise. I have never heard any 2 amps sound alike,and thru a situation of having to move my old Krell, while waiting for the new one and trying a proceed HPA3 in between heard 3 so different it was unreal.


I pray your title is a joke because otherwise that would just be so sad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,897 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Addicted Help!!
I have never heard that said before I came to this board, and basically that is something that if someone says is a poker tell that they are just absolutely clueless to the point that trying to help would mean the person trying is also stupid.


If you believe that, then you are beyond help and save the money and enjoy the noise. I have never heard any 2 amps sound alike,and thru a situation of having to move my old Krell, while waiting for the new one and trying a proceed HPA3 in between heard 3 so different it was unreal.


I pray your title is a joke because otherwise that would just be so sad.
Hello, McFly?? :confused: I'm not sure what you were trying to say there, or who it was addressed to, but I get the strange feeling that you are somewhere enjoying some highly illegal substances at this moment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
435 Posts
Wow!


This thread brings back memories of my car audio days when I was attending U.C. Irvine. I even remember going to Speakerworks and watching them tinker and tweak their Buick Grand National daily! Then they sold the car to Mr. Clark, and they seemed to appear in every Car Audio magazine available. How is Mr. Clark these days and Mr. Kimura with his Acura? BTW, I did buy my Nak TD-700 head unit from Eric Holdaway. I ran a Nakamichi/Soundstream/Alpine system in my car. Ah...undergrad days in the mid to late 80's. Anyway, I also wanted to say that I've always looked up to Zapco Dave...Wow!


Ken
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top