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Discussion Starter #1
OK, so here's my setup:




As you can see, there is very little room under the TV on the first shelf of the stand, for speakers. I currently am using the speaker set from an Onkyo HT-S5400, with the Onkyo 609 as the receiver. The onkyo center channel fits because it uses 3 1/2" drivers and the cabinet is barely 5" tall. Total clearance under the TV is between 5 3/4 and 6 inches. I can't set the speaker in front of the TV because it blocks the TV's IR sensor for the remote.


I'm looking at these two center channels for upgrade:

Polk CS10

BIC America DV-62CLRS


First question, which would you get? Second, would it be a bad idea to place the center channel above the panel, mounted to the wall and telescoping out and angled down towards the listening area? Or should I try and make a rig to lift the panel up higher on the stand? The stand is a Walker/Edison 4 in 1.


Could I maybe just get an IR blaster of some type and just sit the bigger speaker in front of the TV on the shelf? That would probably be the most ghetto version...


At this time, mounting the panel to the wall is not an option.


Any adivce is appreciated!
 

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I suggest that you get the Cambridge Audio S50 center speaker.


It is only 4.6 inches tall, and will sound one heck of a lot better than the two you mentioned.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22251733


At this time, mounting the panel to the wall is not an option.


I get this point when I post what I'm posting below as adjustments to your thinking are needed in order to accommodate the short comings in your venue, in order to accommodate a response to your question.





Quote:
Any adivce is appreciated!

The sound is suppose to center on the lips of the producer (the speaker) of sound which you're seeing on the television. Ninety percent of television audio, expectedly comes from the center channel. Contrary to popular convention, yes, the center channel is nine times more important than the mains.



That being said, one wants the sound coming from the television itself, not from all the other speakers in your system.

Quote:
First question, which would you get?

The baddest center channel I can afford.



Based on your provided image, I'd lose the entertainment center, mount the television, raised on the wall and use some flat or in wall mounted speakers in the fashioned image below.



Klipsch G28 series.


-
 

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The recommendation for the Cambridge S50 is a good one. The S-series is good product for the money. If you don't mind open box, you could also get the matching fronts (S30) from here for a good price: http://www.avhifi.com/shop/clearance-items.html


That dealer is authorized and has an active coupon code for 10% off to, so you can get the S30 for cheap. I've dealt with them before, and they appear to be a very reliable dealer. I'd guess I'm not alone when I say that you should upgrade your fronts to match whatever center you're getting.


I have no experience with the Polk or BIC you mention, but my general experience with Polk's budget speakers is that I would skip them altogether. No idea how BIC's speakers sound - some folks like them.


Also, you can definitely mount the center above the TV as long as you can angle it down toward the listening position AND the front of the speaker is in front of the TV. You don't want them flush, because the TV will act as an extension of the baffle which is not a good thing for the sound.


Likewise, if you are going to keep the center on the stand, I'd recommend you pull it to the very front of the shelf. With it placed as it is now, the sound is immediately reflecting off that glass surface, which is also not good for the sound.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22251879


The sound is suppose to center on the lips of the producer (the speaker) of sound you're seeing on the television. Ninety percent of television audio, expectedly comes from the center channel. contrary to popular convention, yes, the center channel is nine times more important than the mains.

Can't say I agree with that. If you want to experience a balanced, immersive front stage, I'd argue that the fronts and center are equally important. I don't think it's a bad idea to get the best center one can afford, as long as said person can still afford the matching/equally competent L/R.
 

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Discussion Starter #7

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22251881


The recommendation for the Cambridge S50 is a good one. The S-series is good product for the money. If you don't mind open box, you could also get the matching fronts (S30) from here for a good price: http://www.avhifi.com/shop/clearance-items.html


That dealer is authorized and has an active coupon code for 10% off to, so you can get the S30 for cheap. I've dealt with them before, and they appear to be a very reliable dealer. I'd guess I'm not along when I say that you should upgrade your fronts to match whatever center you're getting.


I have no experience with the Polk or BIC you mention, but my general experience with Polk's budget speakers is that I would skip them altogether. No idea how BIC's speakers sound - some folks like them.


Also, you can definitely mount the center above the TV as long as you can angle it down toward the listening position AND the front of the speaker is in front of the TV. You don't want them flush, because the TV will act as an extension of the baffle which is not a good thing for the sound.


Likewise, if you are going to keep the center on the stand, I'd recommend you pull it to the very front of the shelf. With it placed as it is now, the sound is immediately reflecting off that glass surface, which is also not good for the sound.

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, in order to have the center channel extend out far enough to be in front of the top of the panel, I would need a bracket that can extend at least 18". The best I've found so far is one that does 14", but it's expensive. Seems I'm pretty limited at this time, because wall mounting the panel isn't going to happen anytime soon.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22251879


Based on your provided image, I'd lose the entertainment center, mount the television, raised on the wall and use some flat or in wall mounted speakers in the fashioned image below.

Klipsch G28 series.

-

Alot of problems with that setup. It's clearly more about "looking pretty" than optimal sound. The TV is way too high. The speakers are arranged around the TV for looks, instead of having them arranged with the tweeters all at as close to the same height as possible, and as close to ear level as possible. With the L/R mounted up high with the TV, and flat to the wall, they are now firing straight overheard instead of down toward the listener.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22251910


Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, in order to have the center channel extend out far enough to be in front of the top of the panel, I would need a bracket that can extend at least 18". The best I've found so far is one that does 14", but it's expensive. Seems I'm pretty limited at this time, because wall mounting the panel isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Sounds like you'd be better off checking out the Center Stage brackets that NewHTbuyer linked, but that still leaves the issue that the front of the center channel and the front of the TV are going to be roughly flush with one another.


That said, I've seen several members here that use those shelves and they seem to be satisfied.
 

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Discussion Starter #10

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22251906

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22251879


The sound is suppose to center on the lips of the producer (the speaker) of sound you're seeing on the television. Ninety percent of television audio, expectedly comes from the center channel. contrary to popular convention, yes, the center channel is nine times more important than the mains.

Can't say I agree with that. If you want to experience a balanced, immersive front stage, I'd argue that the fronts and center are equally important. I don't think it's a bad idea to get the best center one can afford, as long as said person can still afford the matching/equally competent L/R.

Yeah, I have my eye on the Polk Monitor 60's for the mains upgrade. They were going for $114 each at a 3rd party seller on Amazon (brand new), but now they're back up to $146. I have to do this piecemeal and definitely on a limited budget 'cause we blew all the xtra $ on the tvs. receivers, and accessories.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22251906


Can't say I agree with that. If you want to experience a balanced, immersive front stage, I'd argue that the fronts and center are equally important.

It's not about balance, it's about being true to the soundtrack. Ninety percent of the sound track is geared towards the center channel and ten percent is geared towards the outer L/R channels; surrounds and subs are spatial and effect. As I posted, contrary to conventional thinking the center channel is where it's all happening.


Grow your speaker system from the center channel out and go from there.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Actually, if I move the center channel to the edge of the glass I can get at least another four good inches of clearance before blocking the IR sensor becomes a problem, so that may be the best short term solution...problem is you can see the wires going out the back, which looks a bit messy and I had it recessed that far so my little ones wouldn't get there sticky little hands all over it...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22251987


It's not about balance, it's about being true to the soundtrack. Ninety percent of the sound track is geared towards the center channel and ten percent is geared towards the outer L/R channels; surrounds and subs are spatial and effect. As I posted, contrary to conventional thinking the center channel is where it's all happening.

Grow your speaker system from the center channel out and go from there.

I don't know where you're getting your numbers... but with recent blu-ray that's just not the case for most of the movies I've seen. TV shows maybe, but not with blu-rays.


Again, building from the center channel out isn't a bad thing, as long as it doesn't come at the expense of buying lesser fronts.


On the other hand, I think we'd agree that, for a HT oriented system, it's a bad move to overbuy on the L/R at the expense of the center.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22251919


Alot of problems with that setup. It's clearly more about "looking pretty" than optimal sound. The TV is way too high. The speakers are arranged around the TV for looks, instead of having them arranged with the tweeters all at as close to the same height as possible, and as close to ear level as possible. With the L/R mounted up high with the TV, and flat to the wall, they are now firing straight overheard instead of down toward the listener.

There's no problem with the setup as if one has a barber chair under their butt they can raise themselves up.


It's not nice to talk down to people when asking for advice. I'm helping mfrey0118 as you're not helping me. As posted, the image Is nothing more than an "example" to address the shortcomings of the original image that mfrey. posted of his viewing venue. And yes, in the "REAL" world, there is a compromise between reality and beautiful.


(happy, happy, hap-pi)




I married my wife for her beauty, I stuck with her for her brains. Don't be quick to throw beauty under the bus as beauty is a commodity we all want and need.
 

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The other thing to consider is off-axis response. If you sit off-axis the speaker itself may be a limiting factor. Are you usually sitting somewhat directly in front of the center channel, or are you sitting off to a side? As far as placement, ideally you want the tweeter of all your main speakers at ear level when seated. So the closer you can get to achieving that, the better the center speaker will sound.


Hard to tell from the pics, but is your TV wall mounted or sitting on the console? If it is sitting on the console you could always, buy or build a shelf, so the center channel would be under the TV. It still might be too low, but ideally you want a center that you can tilt and aim it at the listening position. I also agree above that you are going to be limited by your speakers. Lots of options out there on an upgrade. I would look for a center channel that measures well both on and off axis.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22252006


There's no problem with the setup as if one has a barber chair under their butt they can raise themselves up.

It's not nice to talk down to people when asking for advice. I'm helping mfrey0118 as you're not helping me. As posted, the image Is nothing more than an "example" to address the shortcomings of the original image that mfrey. posted of his viewing venue. And yes, in the "REAL" world, there is a compromise between reality and beautiful.

(happy, happy, hap-pi)


I married my wife for her beauty, I stuck with her for her brains. Don't be quick to throw beauty under the bus as beauty is a commodity we all want and need.

I'm not trying to talk down to anyone... and I wasn't trying to rag on you for the pic you posted, so I apologize if I came off that way.


I just wanted to point out that there are issues with that particular setup. You may have already been aware of the compromises, but others may not. The simple fact that so many people go with the TV over the fireplace layout is evidence that many people don't realize that shortcomings of that setup (not just from an audio perspective, but from a cervical spine health perspective). Of course, there are ways to use that type of layout and avoid the issues I pointed out... and that's why I pointed out the issue, so others could avoid them.


In all but dedicated theater rooms, layout and placement are almost always a compromise. It's up to the individual to determine what look suits his/her while minimizing the detriment to sound. And that will vary from person to person.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22252022


The other thing to consider is off-axis response. If you sit off-axis the speaker itself may be a limiting factor. Are you usually sitting somewhat directly in front of the center channel, or are you sitting off to a side? As far as placement, ideally you want the tweeter of all your main speakers at ear level when seated. So the closer you can get to achieving that, the better the center speaker will sound.

Hard to tell from the pics, but is your TV wall mounted or sitting on the console? If it is sitting on the console you could always, buy or build a shelf, so the center channel would be under the TV. It still might be too low, but ideally you want a center that you can tilt and aim it at the listening position. I also agree above that you are going to be limited by your speakers. Lots of options out there on an upgrade. I would look for a center channel that measures well both on and off axis.

Good point about off-axis performance. And that is something to take into account when considering buying any horizontally arrayed speaker.


In an ideal world, I'd skip the S50 for alternative options. It's a horizontal MTM with somewhat wide mid spacing and a 2nd order xover. That is not a recipe for good off-axis performance.


But, in sticking with the OP's height and budget guidelines, and knowing that the S30 is well engineered for it's price class, the S50 may be a viable option, particularly if he won't be sitting more that 15-20 degrees off axis.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22251997


On the other hand, I think we'd agree that, for a HT oriented system, it's a bad move to overbuy on the L/R at the expense of the center.

Some speakers are never happy.



The problem is providing a solution to mfrey0118's venue. It's hard on one's budget when they find out that they have to trash their furniture and start over......all just to make their speaker choices work.


(Sobs inconsolably.)




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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii  /t/1421926/question-about-center-channel-placement#post_22252256


He specifically addressed some concerns regarding off-axis performance of this speaker here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1278774/pioneers-speaker-genius-hits-low-price-point/2730#post_22245864

It's an imperfect world so as a consumer of the perfect world of speaker creation, off axis is the best one can expect as at the same time, more than one individual watches/uses the system. The best consumers can do is create the largest sound field possible and go from there.


(A long time ago I learned that the world of esoteric was the equivalent of la-la land.)
 
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