[spongebob]

Hi Guys,


*Today*, I'm down to these choices (lol)


I know it sounds like a no-brainer, but the Sony keeps saying " you won't be sorry", especially delivered at less than $600. The money isn't really the issue, this is a long term purchase. I think Tom B. had the Sony as his second choice but only as a pre-pro?


The center channel buzz problem in the 8000 concerns me, I don't have a chance to audition that feature before buying


Rex, or others, did anyone compare these 2, especially power wise?


Sorry to be bouncing around here, seems like I agonize over all major purchases.


bob

 

[Bigus]

/puts in some popcorn and leans back in the recliner...

 

[ClarkeBar]

/phaser set to stun...

 

[Mark Stamper]

oh boy, here we go again.

 

[millwood]

hands down, I would go with the HK (or even 525).


since it is a long-term purchase, it wouldn't be a bad idea to use the far beefier amp section in the hk as a dedicated amp, if you so chose to buy a pre-pro in the future (where unforseen changes are likely to occure).


the downside with buying the sony as a pre-pro in the long-run is that format changes, sound fields, advances in microelectronics are likely render such a "pre-pro" less desirable.


the two aren't simply in the same league in my view.

 

[Dalton]

I have compared these two receivers in my HT and the HK is easily the superior choice. I think the decision would be tougher if you were only going to use the unit as a pre/pro. The Sony would be a fine choice in that regard. I easily got the Sony to shut down at volume levels i normally listen to(I like to crank it). The HK has a far superior amp section than the 4es. That is not to knock the Sony because initially the HK was a far more expensive piece. It should have a better amp section because of the market it is targeted at. If you are looking for a receiver with a top notch amp section(as far as receivers go) then the 8000 is the clear choice espicially for more power hungry speakers. The center channel buzz isn't a problem(at least for me). If you already have a dedicated amp, the 4es definetly deserves a look also. The 4ES has more tweakability than the 8000 but the 8000 allows you to overlay Logic 7 on top of 5.1/6.1 sources which can really improve the sound(not in all cases though). It all comes down to your personal preference. You can listen to 1000 people say this and that but in the end it is your ears that make the choice. Try to listen to both if you can before you decide.

 

[DblHelix]

This is the 1st comparison will I will have to side with everyone else. If I could have afforded the H/K AVR8000 when I purchased my DA4ES I would have gotten it myself. Now that a few places are selling it for under $1000 I am kicking myself. I only have a 5.1 setup so the extra amp section on the Sony is not useful to me at this point. By the time I would be doing a 7.1 setup I could easily pickup a 2 channel amp and get this in the AVR8000.

 

[spongebob]

OK, Iwent out to listen to receivers today:


Good guys had the 4es hooked up to compare to $ a 1200 Yamaha and Denon, power rating equal to or greater to the Sony.


I only listened in the stereo mode and it was obvious the Sony had more power and punch through the same speakers, same cd, etc. I was surprised.


CC carries HK but not the ES line. At least I got to see and hear the HK 520 and 525. Maybe this doesn't matter but the HK's felt/looked really plasticy and cheap.


I won't get to see a HK 8000 w/o buying it, so someome please tell me it doesn't have that cheap plastic look that the rest of the HK line had at CC?


thx

bob


(off to audition the Pioneer Elite 45)

 

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Pick up the 4ES for 540 bucks and call it the day


Later you can upgrade when theres a nicer receiver in that price range. Dont spend a grand on a receiver, sheesh whats gotten into you Spongebob!

 

[RexCarson]

Quote:

but the 8000 allows you to overlay Logic 7 on top of 5.1/6.1 sources which can really improve the sound

The word from various threads about this is that the Logic 7 on the 8000 downmixes to 2 channels before applying Logic 7 to the 2 channels to get your 7 channels - which is INFERIOR to listening to the native 5.1/6.1 source. For native 2 channel movie source, Logic 7 is good, but I wouldn't recommend it for 5.1/6.1 sources. And for the DA4ES 2 channel sources, you can use Dolby Prologic II Move or Music and Neo 6: Cinema or Music as will as Cinema Sound and other surround effects.


Personally, I would (and have) picked the DA4ES over the HK AVR8000 for the reasons listed in this thread (10th post or so):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hlight=AVR8000


Regarding the power, I have gone into specifics in that thread. If you want to generate high powered sine waves through all speakers (when all are set to large with the same +0db level setting), the HK will give you higher dbs if you can find some speakers that can handle high power output of sine waves. With 2-channel sine waves (S&V tested DA4ES at 140w/ch), and all multi-channel music and HT (think "crest factor"), the HK might be good for an extra db over the Sony. If you need more power than the DA4ES provides, look for an amp that is good for 200+ w/ch or add a powered sub and set your speakers to small. I like plenty of punch myself, and find the Sony is very capable in my large room. I've never driven it into shutdown. In fact, I had planned on putting in an infinite baffle subwoofer system before buying my DA4ES, but now I'm delaying that purchase because I'm getting such good power from the DA4ES by itself with my large full-range speakers.

 

[M Code]

Quote:

Originally posted by RexCarson The word from various threads about this is that the Logic 7 on the 8000 downmixes to 2 channels before applying Logic 7 to the 2 channels to get your 7 channels - which is INFERIOR to listening to the native 5.1/6.1 source. For native 2 channel movie source, Logic 7 is good, but I wouldn't recommend it for 5.1/6.1 sources. And for the DA4ES 2 channel sources, you can use Dolby Prologic II Move or Music and Neo 6: Cinema or Music as will as Cinema Sound and other surround effects.

REX..

There U go again..

INFERIOR...

Logic 7 was intended to take 2 channel source material, and then emulate a 5.1 or 7.1 soundfield. This is exactly what the AVR 8000 can do with a DD or DTS stream by downmixing to a 2.0. It is an option, and its functions similar to DPL II or NEO 6. The listener can choose what he likes best as since each legacy source media is processed differently, a certain DSP mode may sound better than another. If U check the threads U will find some users like one mode over another but at least now he has alternatives. Because when Logic 7 was introduced there were none and Pro Logic was Mono in the surrounds and a bandwidth of 7KHZ (like AM radio) alternatives, so it was ahead of its time.


Before U judge Logic 7...

U mite want to go down and listen to the Lexicon MC 8, as its DSP can apply Logic 7 to a 5.1 or 6.1 stream while maintaining the original stream's max separation. A very significant result and excellant sonics especially for music concert or DVD-Audio releases.


Regarding output power, the AVR 8000 has more VA in 1 channel than the Sony has in all 7 channels.. Note that to meet the THX Ultra specifications the amplifier must be able to supply 28V into a 3.2 Ohms load, something the Sony is totally incapable of doing.


In closing, if U can still find an AVR 8000 @ like $1000 it is 1 tremendous

AVR....

 

[millwood]

with regards to the power on the 4es (yet again), it shut itself down during S&V's test. there just isn't possible to generate 100wx7 out of 420w power consumption, assuming that the laws of physics still hold for the Sony.


There are a lot of speculation in the forum from a certain individual with regards to the power claims on the sony 4es. But fact be known: there is no published tests that demonstrate what the 4es can do on music or test signals, all channel driven. Estimates using different methods put the 4es at about 30wx7 all channel driven, which would be comparable, methodology-wise, to spec's per HK.


No one can tell you how much power you need but it is reasonable to assume that for some of us, the 4es doesn't cut it.


so if you think the loudness of the 4es isn't a problem for you, it is comparable to the HK at a lower price, the choice should be clear.

 

[millwood]

Quote:

Originally posted by spongebob I won't get to see a HK 8000 w/o buying it, so someome please tell me it doesn't have that cheap plastic look that the rest of the HK line had at CC?

Unfortunately, spongebob, it does. and you aren't alone in disliking the HK's look. A friend of mine had to paint over those shinny white buttons, .

 

[RexCarson]

Quote:

Before U judge Logic 7... U mite want to go down and listen to the Lexicon MC 8, as its DSP can apply Logic 7 to a 5.1 or 6.1 stream while maintaining the original stream's max separation. A very significant result and excellant sonics especially for music concert or DVD-Audio releases.

We are talking about the HK AVR8000. And the Logic 7 on the AVR 8000 does NOT have the capability. That was the point I was making. So with a 5.1 or 6.1 source, most Logic 7 users (of the HK variety) seem to agree that it's better to listen to the 5.1 and 6.1 source in its native format rather than downmixing to 2 channel just to use Logic 7.

 

[DogBean]

JohnR_IN_LA: Is that $540 shipped? Or are you just assuming a $60 shipping on spongebob's estimate?


Oh yeah, and would everyone here choose the DA4ES over an SR600? I'm considering either but is the extra $300 difference a worthwhile investment? ($300vs$600)


I have a 6.1 Polk Audio speaker set up consisting of 4 towers (R30), 2 centers (Csi20), and a sub(PSW202).

 

[millwood]

Quote:

Originally posted by RexCarson So with a 5.1 or 6.1 source, most Logic 7 users (of the HK variety) seem to agree that it's better to listen to the 5.1 and 6.1 source in its native format rather than downmixing to 2 channel just to use Logic 7.

En, Mr. Anti-speculation, wouldn't the above statement be pure speculation on your part?

 

[RexCarson]

Quote:

with regards to the power on the 4es (yet again), it shut itself down during S&V's test.

A test with a SINE WAVE. If it had been hooked up to speakers, they would have burnt up.

Quote:

there just isn't possible to generate 100wx7 out of 420w power consumption, assuming that the laws of physics still hold for the Sony.

Actually there is. You can output music or HT peaking at 100 watts on all channels while only consuming 1 to 15 watts per channel! You do the match. This is due to a phenomenon known at crest factor, and that's why the results are significantly different when you test with a sine wave - which is completely non-reflective of real-world music and HT.

Quote:

But fact be known: there is no published tests that demonstrate what the 4es can do on music or test signals, all channel driven.

Tests have shown the amplifer channels on the Sony at good for 170watts continuous. The only time it can't reach 170watts is when continous power is applied using a sine wave because of the power supply capabilities. With music and HT, the power supply will only need to output 1/100 to 1/8th the power of the peaks, therefore the power supply will not be the limiting factor, and the power should reach its "tested" 170 watts per channel with music or HT due to crest factor. A sine wave will NOT be a good test because the power supply was designed for music and HT demands, not sine waves.

Quote:

Estimates using different methods put the 4es at about 30wx7 all channel driven

Ridiculous. Having this receiver and having used many others, I estimated that it's peaking at OVER 170 watts while still producing a very clean audio signal. I compared to a KSW15 which has 800 watts of dynamic power, and my DA4ES system blew it away. As I said, that is why I have put off purchasing a standalone subwoofer - the DA4ES has amazing power by itself. Forget sine waves. Their crest factor make them completely unrealistic for testing a receiver which is intended for music and HT.

Quote:

No one can tell you how much power you need but it is reasonable to assume that for some of us, the 4es doesn't cut it.

You're right, that's why I suggested getting an amp which has at least 200w/ch if you need more power. But if the DA4ES isn't enough power, the similarly rated HK won't be either. The choice between these 2 should NOT be because of power output. There isn't enough difference to notice (again, with music or HT, not sine waves.)

 

[RexCarson]

More on this topic about the DA4ES power and additional details about it in these threads:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=243746
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=244758
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=244894
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=243124
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=243754
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=237866
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=6
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=241913

 

[Tom_Bombadil]

Bob,


My thoughts were that if I was going to limit my spending to around $700 for a pre-pro, then the Sony DA4ES was my first choice. I would probably also list it as first if I owned a 5-channel power amp and was going to use a receiver as a pre-pro and amp for the two back channels in a 7.1 setup (again with a $700'ish upper limit). I would also give it serious consideration as a receiver in the $700 range if my power requirements were not too demanding, although I suspect I'd go with the HK AVR-525 if I was going to use it as a receiver.


However if I could go to $900 then I would personally prefer the Denon AVR-3803. I'd probably rethink my negative opinion of the Pioneer 45TX now that they appear to have addressed their amp problems. If I could go up to $1000-$1100, then the HK AVR-7200 and AVR-8000 would be the choices - the -7200 if I needed the digital bass management, the -8000 if I could get by on 5 amplified channels as I believe it offers the best amp at anywhere near this price. The other strong option, if you can get it at say 10% off is the Rotel RSX-1055.


But if I was buying a receiver and could get into the $1000 range, I would personally rate the AVR-8000 as well above the DA4ES, that is if I had any kind of demanding power requirement. The amp section alone in the -8000 is worth $800-$1000, perhaps more as a list price. Consider that a year ago when it was in production, the Parasound HCA-855 was listing at $1000 and I find the amp in the AVR8000 to be superior to it.


And then there is that wonderful Logic7 from 2-channel sources. I find this extremely useful.


I'm probably overlooking some options with this off-the-top-of-the-head response.


Tom B.

 

[M Code]

Quote:

Originally posted by RexCarson We are talking about the HK AVR8000. And the Logic 7 on the AVR 8000 does NOT have the capability. That was the point I was making. So with a 5.1 or 6.1 source, most Logic 7 users (of the HK variety) seem to agree that it's better to listen to the 5.1 and 6.1 source in its native format rather than downmixing to 2 channel just to use Logic 7.

REX

Yeah rite..

But the product that includes that specific DSP Logic 7 mode is the MC8 and it is $10,000 without amplifiers...

I don't think that U are going to get the high end DSP modes in a $1000 AVR. When I purchased my Toyota Echo I would have liked to have gotten the V8 used in the Lexus LX500 but just because one cost $11,700 and the other one $62,000 I just don't understand why I didn't get the big motor for the same price.....