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Sony BDP-S5000ES vs. Pioneer BDP-09FD


I have followed a few threads discussing the merits of these two new flagship products and realize, at least in the US, the Pioneer has not hit the streets so direct comparisons are not available here.


I also understand the upcoming Denon and Oppo units can be considered competitors while also adding SACD but in my case, I have a 3930CI that can handle that have narrowed my choice between the top Sony and Pioneer BD players.


With a Pioneer Elite Pro 141FD I like the IR extender and dual HDMI out ports and curious about KURO Link and whether it is an advantage or not.


At the risk of duplication or reviving a similar discussion from September, I'm interested in discussing the advantages and disadvantages of these two options rather than the imbedded posts in other threads.



Pioneer

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...ayers/BDP-09FD


HDMI® 1.3a Output

• Dol by® TrueHD and DTS-HD® Bit-stream Out • 48-Bit Deep Col or Support

• X .V. Col or • AVC-HD


1080p True 24FPS Video Output (BD/DVD)


Original Pioneer –developed 16-Bit Video Processing LSI • 15 Different Video Adjustments

4 Different Noise Reduction Circuits

Internal Audio Decoders • Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus • DTS-HD Master Audio*

• DTS-HD High Resolution Audio


12-bit 297 MHz Video Encoder, 7.1 Channel Analog Audio Outputs

BD-LiveTM Ready* with 4GB Internal Memory

Coaxial Frequency Response Improvement, PQLS Jitter Free Audio Transmission


CONVENIENCE FEATURES

Dual HDMI® Outputs, Locking Component Video Connectors, RS-232C Control


AUDIO FEATURES

Dedicated Analog Audio Power Supply • Custom made capacitors, Toroidal Transformer

8 Wolfson® Audio DACS, • Dual mode configuration for superior signal-to noise ratio (120db)

AUDIOPHILE CONSTRUCTION; Body Construction • Aluminum Panel (Front / Top / Side)

• Steel Cross Bar Supports • Double Layer Top Panel • Solid Steel Bottom Plate • Low Center Load Drive

• TAOC Insulator Feet • Four-Chamber Construction

Internal Construction • Separate Analog Audio Board • Separate Analog Power Supply

• Separate Digital Power Supply • Toroidal Transformer • Separate Video Board • Pioneer Developed

TERMINALS; HDMI 1.3a Output ( x2 Main and Sub) ; Control In RS-232C Control †Gold Plated


Sony

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...2071&langId=-1


Full HD 1080/60p & 24p True Cinema™ Video Output1

DVD Upscaling to 1080p via HDMI™ 1

HD Reality Enhancer/ Super Bit Mapping®

Isolated Audio Circuit Board and High Quality Parts

Rigid Beam Chassis & Dual Shield Construction

Dolby TrueHD® and dts® HD- 7.1 Analog output & bitsteam out over HDMI™

RS-232C & IR Input for Flexible Custom Installation

R-Core Transformer

14 bit/ 296MHz Video DAC Converter

Precision Cinema HD Upscale

BD-ROM (Profile2.0)/R/RE & BD-Live™ Playback capability

Precision Drive™ HD

xross media bar™ GUI

DVD Video/+-R/RW

CD Playback

AVC HD Playback

JPEG Playback

Firmware Update via Ethernet with Auto

Notification
 

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Based on the SoC and hardware both are using, despite the 09FD not being out yet, I would guess the following:


My predictions:

-09FD better A/V quality on Blu-ray, DVD, CD

-09FD far superior analog performance

-S5000ES faster disc load times

-Similar responsiveness for both after a disc is loaded

-09FD much better build quality

-S5000ES better handles dirty/damaged discs

-09FD will have a bit more quirks/glitches due to using much newer/less matured SoC

-09FD will have more A/V quality tweaks & options

-S5000ES will be more user friendly
 

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What the heck is "-09FD better A/V quality on Blu-ray, DVD, CD"


What about the picture quality?
 

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Unfortunately a lot of people do go on "predictions", but I do look very forward to Joerods work. Did you get the analog switching unit in from Zektor so you could compare the analaog performance?



There has been some posts from France where they claim the 09FD/LX91 has better audio performance than the Sony, but there were technically wrong statements in their work which made me doubt their findings (such as the fact they didn't know the audio components for the 7.1 outputs are different to the separate stereo ones). Remember both units have anti-jitter circuits, separate power supplies and good choices of components surrounding the DACs. The Pioneer does have dual-differential, but the SNR of that configuration is still less with the Wolfson DACs than the single-differential (i.e. balanced) circuits used with the BurrBrown DACs in the Sony.


As for picture, the reality enhancer does such a good job in the Sony, that I think the pictures will be "different" bit not neccessarily better.



In the UK, reports came in that while CD performance is good on the LX91, it does not match higher end CD players. There are reports the sound output is overly bright and shrill. This led to some debate about a "Japanese sound" vs a "British sound"....with the latter preference being a bit warmer and smoother sounding.




Clearly a lot of rational, controlled and balanced testing required here....
 

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Even if the 09FD ends up being the superior analog player, the 5000SE will be more user friendly for analog stereo playback due to its' independent L&R stereo inputs which, as JonStatt has advised us do not have to be modified to primary in the Menu for use:
Quote:
The Sony outputs out of all output types at all times. However, it only provides full high res and surround to the output set to primary.

Unfortunately, one has to go into the Home Menu of the 09FD to turn HDMI off in order to use the Analog outputs (and there are no independent L&R stereo inputs in the 09FD).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gostan /forum/post/15569580


Even if the 09FD ends up being the superior analog player, the 5000SE will be more user friendly for analog stereo playback due to its' independent L&R stereo inputs which, as JonStatt has advised us do not have to be modified to primary in the Menu for use:


Unfortunately, one has to go into the Home Menu of the 09FD to turn HDMI off in order to use the Analog outputs (and there are no independent L&R stereo inputs in the 09FD).

Yes indeed. It was actually quite interesting to play a CD and hear the output from all of the 7.1 outputs (just using front L&R), coax outputs, and the separate stereo outputs. They all sounded different. In particular of interest was the differenes from the 7.1 outputs to the stereo outputs in terms of the choice of opamps and capacitors and how that affects the sound.


EDIT: Just to be clear. If you are playing a lossless stereo blu-ray soundtrack recorded at say 192Khz. You will only get the full res decoding of this out of the stereo outputs on the Sony if you set the primary to the stereo analogue setting. Otherwise you supposedly get a 48KHz version instead. But as CD is all lower than 48KHz anyway...you should get everything out of all outputs at the same time.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt /forum/post/15569723


Yes indeed. It was actually quite interesting to play a CD and hear the output from all of the 7.1 outputs (just using front L&R), coax outputs, and the separate stereo outputs. They all sounded different. In particular of interest was the differenes from the 7.1 outputs to the stereo outputs in terms of the choice of opamps and capacitors and how that affects the sound.

Jon, a description of the differences in sound from the various inputs would be appreciated.


You must have imagined that I would make this request.
 

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Although there may be some differences in picture quality for BD, it appears these high end players are reaching diminishing returns. It’s a different case for DVD and I’ll be interested in hearing how this compares.


But error handling from dirty/damaged discs is still an issue for BD, as is compatibility with disc software. I’d really like to know how these players compare on these issues.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gostan /forum/post/15569743


Jon, a description of the differences in sound from the various inputs would be appreciated.


You must have imagined that I would make this request.

Indeed



The 7.1 outputs use the NJM2114 op-amp. This is an op-amp that receives about as much criticism as it does praise. The reason for this is that it requires careful integration and a clearn power supply. If you fail on these, it is very noisy. Sony have not failed.


The NJM2114 has almost twice the gain-bandwidth of the infamous OPA2132 from Ti/Burr-Brown (and as used in the stereo outputs). Sony believe this lends itself to being better to movies (probably big explosions covering a wide frequency spectrum etc).


What I notice about the 7.1 outputs when playing music is that produces a punchy sound...the bass is slightly accentuated but in a clear, not muddy manner. The treble end is almost over-detailed however....clinical. For example, you can hear too much of the bow against the string of a violin. It is not a bad sound at all...but I think some will not like this for music. For movies, I think it suits it perfectly.


For the stereo outputs, the op-amps used are the OPA2132. Note that each L/R pair of outputs (both 7.1 and stereo) will use 3 of these stereo op-amp circuits. This is because the output of the Burr Brown PCM1796 DACs are differential/balanced outputs, which must be converted to single-ended outputs.


The stereo outputs also has a different choice of capacitors with an increased used of foil capacitors. Foil capacitors produce better linearity. The OPA2132 while not matching the Gain Bandwidth of the NJM2114 outperforms in other areas. For the stereo outputs, I note that the slight bass push is gone, and the somewhat clinical treble is replaced with a smoother sound. This is definitely more pleasant for longterm music listening.


However, I did compare this to my Lexicon RT-10 which I consider my reference. I absolutely love the analogue sound output of this unit for SACD/DVD-A. When playing the same music on the RT-10, I am aware that it still sounds sweeter...and while maintaining the smoothness, it is not at the expense of detail. The Sony doesn't quite reach that standard, and although the stereo outputs are very respectable, the smoothness is paired with a slight loss of detail in the highest frequencies...but it is slight.



It is interesting that Sony have recognised a different need for movies and music and produced separate circuits. However this mentality is slightly flawed when considering music Blu-rays!!


Nevertheless, the output from the 7.1 outputs is still very good for music to. In fact a friend who I demonstrated these differences too, actually preferred the 7.1 outputs on some modern music CDs such as Jack Johnson. The slightly punchier, edgier sound seemed to suit his music.



Hope this helps!




Kit: Lexicon MC-12, RT-10, Sony BDP-S5000ES. Lexicon NT312/412 amps (re-badged Brystons). Kef reference 4.2 fronts, Kef 200c centre, Kef reference 1.2 sides, Polk Audio f/x1000 rears, Velodyne DD-18 sub.
 

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One point to remember is a 5 year warranty VS a 2 year warranty.


Hopefully neither is needed, but still 5 years is ridiculous.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaby /forum/post/15582265


What kind of thread makes comparison with an existing blu-ray and vaporware?

Obviously, a few folks have the 09 or will be getting one in the next few days.
 
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