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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was real excited when I heard the new Sony HDTV direct view TVs were out with a DVI interface. I had visions of hooking up my PC to it through the ATI Radeon 8500 DVI interface graphics board and getting an XGA or better display like I get on my flat panel monitor. I bought a 36XBR800 sight unseen and I was really disappointed when I read in the T.V.'s manual that the DVI/HDCP interface "is not intended for use with personal computers". Nowhere on the Sony website for this TV does it mention this in the specifications. Sony saves this little tidbid of information until after you have bought the set. I felt screwed. I called Sony technical support and all they could tell me was "Sony does not support this product for PC applications". No one at Sony could tell me the specifics of why the DVI-I interface and signal coming out of the Radeon 8500 is incompatable with the DVI/HDCP input on the Sony. I realize the HDCP represents digitally encoded copy protection, but shouldn't the receiver be able to recognize a non encoded signal and pass it through accordingly? If not, is anybody producing a device to encode the standard noncompressed DVI signal coming out of the computer so the DVI/HDCP decoder in the TV will convert and display the signal properly? Any advise would be most appreciated.
 

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Sony et al. probably just don't want to deal with the potential support issues, and the multiple qualification which the claim of "PC" support would require. I have a JVC with the DVI/HDCP connector, and its manual says exactly the same sort of thing as your Sony: "not intended for use with a PC" etc. etc.


The Radeon (and Windows) autodetected the JVC as a digital Plug and Play monitor, and run it at 1280x720 w/o fuss.
 

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We must have answered at the same time. :)


Just to clarify, results using different graphics cards were varied, but the JVC was perfectly consistent in the Plug and Play/EDID data it provided Windows across the DVI/HDCP. Here's the output, as interpreted by a new (free) utility I just finished up, called MonInfo .

Code:
Code:
Monitor
  Manufacturer................ JVC
  Plug and Play ID............ JVC0320
  Serial number............... (n/a)
  Manufacture date............ 2001
  EDID revision............... 1.3
  Display type and signal..... Digital
  Sync input support.......... (n/a)
  Screen size................. 1070 x 600 mm (~51")
  Power management............ Active off/sleep

Color characteristics
  Display gamma............... 3.55
  Red chromaticity............ Rx 0.625 - Ry 0.250
  Green chromaticity.......... Gx 0.341 - Gy 0.289
  Blue chromaticity........... Bx 0.607 - By 0.148
  White point (default)....... Wx 0.072 - Wy 0.281

Timing characteristics
  VESA GTF support............ Not supported
  Horizontal scan range....... 31-34kHz
  Vertical scan range......... 60Hz
  Video bandwidth............. 70MHz
  Timing recommendation #1.... 1920x540 at 60Hz
      Modeline................ "1920x540" 74.250 1920 2008 2052 2200 540 542 547 562 interlace +hsync +vsync
  Timing recommendation #2.... 720x480 at 60Hz
      Modeline................ "720x480" 27.000 720 736 798 858 480 486 492 525 +hsync +vsync
  Timing recommendation #3.... 1280x720 at 60Hz
      Modeline................ "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1390 1430 1650 720 725 730 750 +hsync +vsync

Standard timings supported
   640 x  480 at  60Hz - IBM VGA
   720 x  480 at  60Hz - JVC
  1280 x  720 at  60Hz - JVC
  1920 x  540 at  60Hz - JVC
There is, of course, overscan - but that is normal for a TV. There two T&Rs provided full screen, minimal overscan from a Radeon:


720x480 for video:

"720x480" 30.910 720 808 872 912 480 511 512 549 +hsync +vsync


1120x630 for web browsing and gaming:

"1120x630" 71.280 1120 1280 1408 1584 630 673 676 720 +hsync +vsync
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you for your prompt response to my question of a couple weeks ago in the forum. I finally got a DVI cable to hook up the Sony KV-36XBR800 direct view TV I have to the Radeon 8500. The only resolution I can get to work correctly is 720 x 480. I ran your moninfo.exe program and here are the results:


Monitor

Windows description......... Plug and Play Monitor

Manufacturer description.... SONY TV

Manufacturer................ Sony

———————————————————— ————————

Plug and Play ID............ SNY00F8

Serial number............... (n/a)

———————————————————— ————————

Manufacture date............ 2002

EDID revision............... 1.3

Display type and signal..... Digital

Sync input support.......... (n/a)

Screen size................. 0 x 0 mm (~0")

Power management............ Not supported


Color characteristics

Display gamma............... 2.20

Red chromaticity............ Rx 0.625 - Ry 0.340

Green chromaticity.......... Gx 0.280 - Gy 0.595

Blue chromaticity........... Bx 0.155 - By 0.070

White point (default)....... Wx 0.283 - Wy 0.298


Timing characteristics

VESA GTF support............ Not supported

Horizontal scan range....... 15-46kHz

Vertical scan range......... 59-61Hz

Video bandwidth............. 80MHz

Timing recommendation #1.... 1920x540 at 60Hz

Modeline................ "1920x540" 74.250 1920 2008 2052 2200 540 542 547 562 interlace +hsync +vsync

Timing recommendation #2.... 720x480 at 60Hz

Modeline................ "720x480" 27.000 720 736 798 858 480 489 495 525 -hsync -vsync


Standard timings supported

640 x 480 at 60Hz - IBM VGA

720 x 480 at 60Hz - Sony

1920 x 540 at 60Hz - Sony


Raw EDID

00: 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 4D D9 F8 00 01 01 01 01

10: 00 0C 01 03 80 00 00 78 0A 0D C9 A0 57 47 98 27

20: 12 48 4C 20 00 00 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01

30: 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 1D 80 18 71 1C 16 20 58 2C

40: 25 00 00 00 00 00 00 9E 8C 0A D0 8A 20 E0 2D 10

50: 10 3E 96 00 00 00 00 00 00 18 00 00 00 FC 00 53

60: 4F 4E 59 20 54 56 0A 20 20 20 20 20 00 00 00 FD

70: 00 3B 3D 0F 2E 08 00 0A 20 20 20 20 20 20 01 02


Display adapter

Adapter description......... RADEON 8500/RADEON 8500LE

Adapter device ID........... 0x514C1002

Display settings............ 720x480, 32bpp


User/computer information

Registered user name........ Scott Sayer

Registered organization..... Catamount Corporation

Network user name........... Administrator

Network computer name....... PRECISION-340

Windows version ............ Windows 2000

Windows build .............. 5.00.2195 Service Pack 2

Installation date .......... 3/29/2102 3:43:02 PM




Do you think there is any chance I might be able to get this unit working at 1280 x 720 like your JVC does? Also, is the JVC you have the direct view tube TV, I'Art model or is it a Plasma unit? Do you think this makes a difference? Thanks for all your help.
 

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This is tricky. On the one hand, you would think Sony would explicitly state support for 720p, like JVC does, if it was possible - they do not.


But the specs they provide via the EDID suggest it can do 720p. 720p requires a horizontal scan frequency of 45kHz and 74MHz of video bandwidth, and Sony's EDID *explicitly* states support for both.


But this presupposes that Sony coded their EDID with accurate data, and they may very well not have. Note that a serial number is not provided,at all and that the screen size is 0x0; no support for power management is claimed, but I'd be surprised if it didn't power off when no signal was detected after so x number of minutes.


If the Radeon will allow it, I would try it. Just be prepared to switch back or cancel the change quickly if it doesn't sync.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I might be missing something here, but I have a question. When you say "If the Radeon will allow it, I would try it." are you refering to the choices of screen area under the display settings in the control panel? The only choices I have there are the same that are indicated when I ran your program, namely 640x480, 720x480 and 1920x540. Also, is the JVC your running a Plasma unit or a Tube T.V. like the I'Art? Thanks.
 

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DVI is supposed to provide precise information to the graphics card, and the graphics card is supposed to respect this, i.e., Windows Display properties should not offer you choices that the DVI'd device does not support.


The JVC I was using was a 48" I'Art RPTV (there's a 56" too) - its manual explicitly states support for 720p, whereas the DVI-equipped 36" I'Art DTV does not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The Sony documentation states "This TV is also 720p Input Capable (converted to 1080i) and HD Capable". I suppose one should watch out for qualifying comments in parenthesis when one sees 720p capable. I thank you for all your help Ashley and will definitely be walking in to the dealer with computer in hand before I buy another T.V. on specs again. In the mean time, this one is going back.
 

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I too just bought a Sony 36XBR800. I was aware that the DVI-D was not intended for PC use. It would really need to support 800x600 to be PC friendly. The 640x480 mode is OK but it does not fill the screen and 640x480 is barely supported under Windows XP. I tried 720x480 from the Radeon driver itself but it cut off the bottom of the toolbar.


Powerstrip let me use 720x480 with these timings with better results.


PowerStrip timing parameters:

720x480=720,80,64,48,480,33,1,49,30807,1


Generic timing details for 720x480:

HFP=80 HSW=64 HBP=48 kHz=34 VFP=33 VSW=1 VBP=49 Hz=60


The image is cut off on the right and there is a gap on the left but the front porch and back porch adjustments did not help. There is also black band on the bottom and top. The image is usable though… well as usable as a 480 high image can be.


I tried many other setting but since I am not a PowerStrip expert it may not mean anything. I focused on 960x540 which I expected to be letterbox but the screen just went black and stayed that way until it timed out and reverted back. I tried some of the canned PowerStrip “Advanced Settings†with no luck at anything taller than 480. 1920x540, 1280x720i, 1280x960i, 1440x960i all just made the screen go black until it timed out.


I still hope that the Radeon 7500 -> 36XBR800 can work although my fallback is to get one of the (better) VGA to Component converter boxes. From everything I have read I would expect 960x540 to work with the component inputs.


Oh, I have also seen the DVI-D input fail to re-appear when I turn the TV off and then back on again. If I reboot the PC while the monitor is on then is comes up just fine. I have the Radeon set as the primary display. An older VGA monitor shows the BIOS screen and the initial Windows startup screen.


So, I think the key questions are:


1) Has anyone gotten anything above 720x480 to work? Any suggestions?

2) Has anyone else seen the DVI-D input fail to return after having the TV off?

3) Is anyone having better luck with DVI than I am?


Thanks


Ken
 

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I recently purchased the Sony 32inch direct view KV-32HV600 and was planning on building an HTPC with a Raedon 8500, 9500, or nVidia Ge Force 4 MX for a video card....what are the chances I am gonna have the same DVI problem?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by KTF
2) Has anyone else seen the DVI-D input fail to return after having the TV off?

3) Is anyone having better luck with DVI than I am?
I cannot answer Q1 because that would seem to be Sony specific, but Q2 is most probably an issue with ATI's DVI hotplugging. Only Windows shows on my JVC w. an 8500, not the POST or boot screens - and I have had DFPs do the same, so its not a HDTV-only issue. NVidia cards do not seem to have this problem, but Matrox cards - like ATI - do.


As for your Q2, I can get practically any resolution 1280x720 and below to work using 720p or 540p timing. It all gets scaled up to 1080i by the TV, which is fine for continuous motion gaming and video, but not web browsing etc, with static content and especially text.


Now for a DVI limitation: the lowest pixel format supported by DVI is 640x480x60Hz (25MHz), and though I've never seen this stated explicitly, I don't believe interlacing is supported by DVI. In the next PowerStrip, you will not be able to enable interlacing if you have a digital device connected.


I have posted some JVC DVI/HDCP timings here, including 800x600: http://pub28.ezboard.com/fentechfrm7...picID=13.topic


Since my 720x480 timing for the JVC is very close to yours for the Sony, perhaps you'll have some luck with the others too...
 

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Ashley - Which GeForce card specifically are you getting these kinds of resolutions? I thought I read somewhere that someone had trouble getting any resolutions over 540 lines out of the nVidia onto a JVC.


I just purchased the AV48WP30 and want to order a new video card with DVI-output to take advantage of it, but I want to know it will be compatible and be able to make the resolutions I would want... for both windows applications, gaming, and DVD playback. Any suggestions or recommendations?


Thanks,
 

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I'm afraid I don't have access to the JVC right now, but this would be an NVidia driver issue, rather than something specific to this or that NVidia chip or card. They all use the same driver.


Depending on your budget, I'd suggest either an ATI 9000 or 9700 series Radeon. If you opt for an NVidia card, you'll get more flexibility using a transcoder than the DVI.
 

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For what its worth....

These numbers are from the DirectView forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=4

Quote:
I've setup a number of resolutions with Powerstrip 3.20. Currently, I have:

640x480p (540p timings w/ no overscan)

720x480p (540p timings w/ no overscan)

800x600p (720p timings w/ no overscan)

848x480p (540p timings w/ no overscan)

960x540p (540p timings w/ overscan)

1152x648p (720p timings w/ no overscan)

1184x666p (720p timings w/ no overscan)

1280x720p (720p timings w/ overscan)
 

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Ashley,


Concerning this apparent 540 limitation with the nVidia drivers and the DVI connection, can this NOT be overridden with Powerstrip?


And, have you had the opportunity to try one of the new Hitachi 20B RPTV's with the DVI connection to a PC?


Thanks....
 

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I wasn't able to override it using a DVI connection, only using a transcoder. But this is just a driver issue, and there may very well be a driver/registry switch that can be set to override this.


I'm afraid I haven't seen the new Hitachis...
 

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Can someone elaborate as to what transcoders they are using and what timings they are using for said resolution as well as what drivers you are using? I have the 36XBR800 as well and am at the end of my "DIY transcoder" project I made from about $20-$30 in parts. At first it was to save a few bucks, but now it has become more of an obsession to get this to work properly. I believe the circuit is in perfect working condition now, but I am experiencing troubles with even a 640x480 display (31.5 and 60 of course). With the default settings the TV's video input display bobs in and out as if it is trying to sync. With adjustments to sync width and porch values, I can get what looks like a mirrored image (left and right) and is still obviously quite distorted to say the least. The funny thing is, if I launch the myHTPC app ( www.myhtpc.net ), the tv syncs up immediately and I can view this screen but with a feathers out appearance on the top left corner and also there is what I can only describe as the topmost part of the screen seems to be cut off and placed on the bottom but very distorted ..producing almost a rainbow effect. By accident I rebooted the PC at one point, and noticed that the TV went from a blank screen to the windows splash screen (looking much like the myHTPC thing described above) and was somewhat stable. For some reason I cannot get a standard window and of course video to display. It seems to have the same issues on a different PC so I am inclined to believe that the TV requires special timings in Powerstrip to display properly. Here is my setup:


-36XBR800

-WinXP Pro SP1

-Visiontek Geforce4 ti4600 (43.30 beta drivers)

-PS 3.30 (latest build)

-using the DIY transcoder hooked to the PC via a approximately 6-foot VGA cable and then output to 3 30-feet quad-shielded RG6 cables with RCA-type ends. The cables have been tested and work very well as composite cables and also match in length within an inch.


I have also tried the above setup on a Win2k machine with a Voodoo3 3000 card just for S&G's.


Any help from a 36XBR800 owner or nvidia owner would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 

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I have the KV-32HS500 monitor and it looks like it has most the same hardware as the XBR. Its also detected as a Plug and Play SNY00F8. 640*480 is about the only resolution I can use though hooking it up through DVI input.
 
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