[SillieBazzillie]

I had the opportunity today to side-by-side review the Panny 300 and Sony HS10 (no filter). I’m not a FP technical expert, nor an engineer. I’m a finance guy who happens to love HT. Therefore, my review will consist of non-technical terms like “wow†and “bitchin.â€


I will preface what I’m about to say by stating that both FPs looked incredible. I mean wow!! I currently have a 50 inch Mitsu RP and the DVD picture quality on both FPs blew it away. Screen sizes of 80 to 100 inches were used. The change in screen size did not change the picture quality in any measurable way.


HD – As has been posted many times here, the HS10 HD is stunning. It’s very much like looking out a window at a real-world picture. Details were sharp, blacks were black, and whites were very white.


The 300’s HD was also stunning, just not as stunning as the HS10’s. If the HS10 was not running beside the 300 I’m sure I would have been hard pressed to imagine a better picture. Color and black level was very, very good. That being said, the HS10’s picture was a little bit sharper, and it’s whites were a little whiter. The biggest difference between the two is the brightness and whiter whites of the HS10. Again, as I viewed the Panny by itself I never questioned the white level or brightness.


DVDs – I watched several scenes from The Fifth Element. Here the picture quality was almost identical between the two machines. The only noticeable, to me, difference was the whiter whites of the HS10.


Screen door was a non-issue. I moved up and back several times and once I forgot to look for the effect, I never noticed it. This will not be a factor in my decision between these two FPs. Fan noise was also not an issue. I meant to ask and focus on the fan noise, but I guess I got carried away with the demo and never thought about it. The room was quiet during a lot of the HD scenes and I never once even thought about the fans. This is also a non-issue for me.


Now the salesman said that the Panny does certain things like some shadowing and color saturation better. I either can’t or didn’t notice either of these. Again, both pictures look fabulous.


The Panny is $1,800 and the Sony is $2,600. The debate I must now resolve is whether or not the Sony’s whiter whites are worth the extra cash. Right now I’m thinking I can get the Panny, screen, and HD decoder for what the Sony cost. I’m leaning toward the Panny. The Sony was a bit brighter (especially the whites), but I’m sure I won’t even think about this if the Panny where running in my house.


I didn’t even ask the salesman to demo any of the real expensive FPs. How much better could the picture quality get? I bet not enough to justify the extra expense. I’m just an average guy who loves HT and if (when) I have one of these FPs you’ll have trouble dragging me away. The picture quality was that good.

 

[rlindo]

I wonder if "whiter" whites might be a result of the Sony HS10's colour temp being too high or possibly the L300s colour temp being too low. It is a possibility. If I were comparing, I'd want to make sure both were set closest to 6500K colour temp and then see how they compare. Too bad that usually isn't possible.

 

[SillieBazzillie]

Both were out of the box settings. I'm sure tweaking would help both FPs. I think it all comes down to HD. If you watch a lot and don't mind the extra $$$, get the HS10. If you don't watch a lot of HD get the Panny. You shouldn't be sorry either way. Actually it all comes down to $$. HD on the Panny looked superb, just not as superb as the HS10.

 

[Andrew_Ballew]

Quote:

Originally posted by SillieBazzillie Both were out of the box settings. I'm sure tweaking would help both FPs. I think it all comes down to HD. If you watch a lot and don't mind the extra $$$, get the HS10. If you don't watch a lot of HD get the Panny. You shouldn't be sorry either way. Actually it all comes down to $$. HD on the Panny looked superb, just not as superb as the HS10.

The real difference in actual resolution between the Panny and the Sony on 1080i is more like 960x540 versus 1366x540. Advantage Sony, but not as much as you might think looking at the specs. On 720p, definite advantage Sony- 1280 x 720 versus 960 x 540. Remember, these numbers are real resolution before the final scaling to fit the 1366 x 768 panel.


There are other factors to consider- I chose the Panny for virtually no fan noise, short throw distance, and less $$$. I watch TONS of HDTV, and am not a bit dissapointed.



Andrew B.

 

[wterry]

Don't forget about other things, such as the HDCP via DVI on the Sony. I can't be positive but am pretty sure the Panny doesn't have that.

 

[HJA]

Andrew,

My primary fear of buying the panny is that, based on various posters, a direct tv satellite feed of regular old tv (4:3) will look unwatchable . I don't plan on watching a lot of regular TV on the projector but occasional sports on a bigscreen is very appealing to me (and my friends) and I'd like to think that its acheivable with an LCD FP.


Have you found your panasonic to provide an acceptable image with sports television (

Yes, I know the best way is to demo for myself but most panny dealers don't want to demo with you with charging a restocking fee.


One other shot, has anyone evaluated/seen the Studio Experience Matinee HD1 as a less expensive option to the Panny?


thanks all

 

[MovingTarget]

Studio Experience Matinee HD1


Isn't that a rebadged Sanyo Z1? About the same specs as the Panny but no smooth screen. The SE version come with an extra bulb and a better warranty, if my memory is serving me correctly. You could buy the Sanyo and save some $$ over the Panny. Some have reported just defocus the Sanyo slightly and you lose the screen door.

 

[ji9988]

HJA, I watch quite a bit of cable tv and the picture runs from good to excellent. It just depends on the feed.

 

[Robert Terry]

I am also watching a lot of cable tv on my panny and the picture in my opinion is very good. Also regarding whites- they were so bright on mine that I had to adjust the gamma settings in order to make them viewable at times. I was watching a baseball game the other night and the Braves home uniforms were blinding ! So I am sure when you make the proper adjustments there should be no issues in this regard at least.

 

[SillieBazzillie]

Good thoughts all.


Can anyone tell me what the big deal about HDCP via DVI? I've done some searching but can't come up with a clear def. The closest I've seen is that some DVD players will output DVDs > 480. Is this correct? If so, would this apply to all DVDs or just ones made this way from the studio. I don't mean to be dense but is this a feature that I'll regret not having in a year or two? I have a decent sized DVD collection and if the resolution on those can be improved via this interface I'd definatley think about it. Thanks again for everyones input.


Sillie

 

[jacksonian]

Sillie, HDCP is a HUGE topic, there's a continual thread running in the Plasma/LCD forum about it. I'll try to summarize.


HDCP is a copy-protection encryption method that is implemented via a DVI (digital) connector. Hollywood is pushing the implementation of DVI/HDCP as a standard to protect their high definition material. The plan is for them to be able to control what HD you can copy and potentially what HD you can even watch.


Here's the deal: The fear/rumor/possibility is that DVI/HDCP will be adopted and the studios will not allow their material to be passed through anything EXCEPT HDCP. So if you don't have a DVI/HDCP input, you won't be able to watch any of their stuff in HD. Apparently DirecTV is already testing some of this.


Some people say it won't happen at all, some say there will be some type of adapter for analog TV's (like the Panny with component inputs), some people say they'll file a class action lawsuit if their TV is rendered HD-obsolete. Basically, no one knows. There will probably be SOME form of copy protection, but it may be Firewire or it may be something totally new.


Many people have said don't buy anything without the DVI/HDCP connector because it may be useless for HD soon. I bought the Panny because I think it may take years for them to sort this out.


If you want to be future proof, ie, you don't want to face the possibility of buying a new pj in the next few years, then buy the Sony. That is, unless they come up with another copy protection method.


The DVD stuff comes into play 2 ways, first, a digital connection avoids the digital-analog conversion and could theoretically provide a better picture, then second way is that the rumor is that when High Definition DVD comes out in the next couple of years, it will be protected with DVI/HDCP also.


Buy the Sony and have some peace of mind about the future or buy the Panny, save the money, enjoy it for a year or two while all this shakes out and see if you need to upgrade.


This is only the tip of the iceberg. Check the other threads on this. The latest issue of Sound and Vision has an article about HDTV and goes into all the connnectors. That might be a good place to start. Actually, I'll link the online article below:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1


Oh yeah, they already have plans to replace HDCP with HDMI which is HDCP plus it carries multichannel audio also. AND those 2 connectors are not the same from what I understand! I gave up trying to guess what would happen and decided I'll enjoy now and upgrade later if needed.

 

[SillieBazzillie]

Thanks for the info Jack. I'm inclined to agree with you. I find the possibility that all current HDTVs without this connection becoming obsolete not likely. I was mainly concerned with potentially higher DVD resolution. This does not seem likley, in the short term (1 - 3 yrs) either.


I really did like both units very much. I was just drawn to the Sony more due to it's brightness, but I also thought the Panny's colors were more true. I think that I'll put the extra cash toward a screen and a HD converter.


Jack since you have the 300, do you think it's feasible to go to a 110 or 120 inch image? I forgot to ask the saleman to demo that. I didn't see any noticeable image degradetion going from 80 - 100. Also, what kind of screen do you use?


Sillies

 

[jacksonian]

I'm using a 106" Da-Lite High Contrast Cinema Vision screen and it seems plenty bright to me. I think I used the formula and came up with about 13 foot lamberts of brightness. If you're really worried about brightness--or really enjoyed the brightness of the Sony, then you may want to check out the high power screen (higher gain screen, reflects more of the light back to you). There are several recent threads here about this and lots of debate. Short story, the people that have the high powers LOVE it dearly. Supposed tradeoffs would be that you need to sit in the sweet spot for full benefit and also that you may trade some deep black for the bright white. If I was going to go 120", I might seriously consider the high power. Supposedly you get max benefit from it with table mounting instead of ceiling mounting. Search on user "mulveling" --he's a big high power proponent, his posts may help you. Check out the screen forum and read back a couple of days, I know there have been several threads on this issue.


Hope that helps,

Brent

 

[wterry]

You forgot to mention the recent article about CBS pulling all of their HDTV material if HDCP isn't finalized by this coming fall. CBS is a huge supporter and provider of HD programming. It would really suck if they did pull their line-up since they cover college football in HD, which is why I bought it 2 years ago to begin with. If it were my money, I would rather the peace of mind of knowing you have HDCP/DVI capability. I did purchase the sony, and am looking forward to a DVD player with DVI out, if for nothing more than not having the analog/digital conversion going on. The other thing to remember is this, say HDCP does become a reality in the near future, which it very well could. You purchase the Panny, how badly do you think that would affect the resale value?? Not too many people would want to purchase a unit that wouldn't be able to dispaly HD. Purchase the Sony, you can sell it once you want to ugrade to say the SXRD chip one. Just food for thought.

 

[jacksonian]

wterry, your points are well taken. However, the Panny will ALWAYS be great for your current DVDs and I could see selling it to tons of people who have a large DVD collection and want a cheap big screen machine. I know my brother-in-law would kill to have my Panny. You won't likely find a bunch of crazed forum members willing to buy a non-HD machine, but you'll find plenty of average folks who still won't know what HD is, have access to it, or just won't care. Hell, I'll donate it to the local retirement home for movie night and write it off as a tax donation!


For me, I plan to upgrade in a year or two anyway, no matter what. I know there will be machines that smoke both the Panny and the Sony by then. I find it doubtful that HDCP will be widely implemented by then, even if they decide on a standard tomorrow. What about all those sets sitting on the shelf right now and in production without DVI. Electronics giants don't give a crap about the sets already sold to me and you, but I don't think they'll waste those sets in production by making them obsolete tomorrow. Besides, you've got to have cable boxes and receivers, etc... with these inputs as well. I haven't seen either of those yet.


IMO, if you only plan to buy one pj in your life (or the next 5 years anyway), then by all means, buy the Sony, no question, hands down, you're right, I give. However, for me and a lot of other folks, the $800 difference between the two (not to mention availability) is compelling enough to go with the Panny now. If I need to upgrade in 6 months, then I'll have $800 to do it with. On the other hand, in a year we may have a different copy protection standard, maybe firewire with DTCP, on a new projector with 1920x1080 resolution and 1500 lumens. Then I'd still want to upgrade and I wouldn't have the $800 to do it. As rogo said the other day, the Sony isn't enough to vaccinate me against upgrade-itis.


This is just my rationale to explain my choice of the Panny. Obviously you bought the Sony for other reasons and have a different rationale. I respect that and I'm sure the Sony is better in an absolute showdown not factoring price. But I personally don't think it's worth 40% more money. It's good that Sillie has us to debate all these issues so he can make a choice based on what we've already struggled with.


As for CBS, I know about that and I think it stinks. But like I said, even if something gets finalized this fall, time to implementation would likely be MANY months. I have Time Warner Cable. It took them a year or so to catch up with the tiny demand for HD boxes that they had last year. If HD gets mainstream, it will take a while for these things to happen.

 

[Cliff Flowers]

1.1 Pixel Mapping ...



I understand you cannot get true 1.1 pixel mapping with the Panny and you can with the Sony, but at the expense of stuttering because of the low refresh rate the Sony requires you to use (56 Hz. I think). So the big question is: Which of the two evils is more acceptable, no true 1.1 mapping with the Panny or the Stuttering issue with the Sony? I definitely want to use the HTPC @ 1.1 (if possible) but don't want to deal with desktop ugliness or even infrequent stuttering. All this information here and I still can't decide which projector is best? Panny - Sony, Sony - Panny, Panny - Sony.........Damn these decisions! Someone help me...


PS - I also posted this in another similar thread - sorry to duplicate, but really would like as much input as possible on this subject.

__________________

If you build it they will come...

 

[jacksonian]

Sorry, I don't do HTPC, so I have no clue about 1:1 pixel mapping. I guess I don't really get it. My DVDs look spectacular. If 1:1 pixel mapping can make a significant improvement, then I guess it's worth it. I just can't see how a small improvement could be worth so much effort. I just want to hit play and watch. But I'm not a hobbyist, just a lazy movie watcher. I don't want to work that hard for it.

 

[wterry]

Jacksonian,


I totally understand what you are saying and the points you are driving home. I hope they don't implement any type of HDCP crap. I am also looking into a HD Directv box that has a DVI out so I can run true digital w/o analog converting. The 1:1 pixel mapping would be nice also, and I have a box I could convert into a HTPC, but sounds like a lot of work.


I don't think you can go wrong either way the Panny or the Sony. I got the Sony cause I got a killer deal from a local vendor. The price difference between the two for me was only about $400 or so. Plus he had one Sony in stock. I also like the fact that the Sony unit has a 2 year warranty vs the one year on the Panny.


As far as upgrades go, you know you'll be getting the Sony with an SXRD chip when it comes out!! If the specs are correct 3000:1 CR and 1920x1080 resolution. That would rock! You'll see my HS10 on ebay when those suckers are out (and at a reasonable price).


Oh yeah, I almost forgot the #1 reason I got the Sony. It has front exhaust fans! That made a world of difference for me. I don't have a huge room, and from what I had read you need 3ft of rear space for the projectors that exhaust from the rear. That would have made my screen that much smaller. Just food for thought. Carry on.

 

[jacksonian]

wterry,

You're right on all of those. I used my Visa to get double the warranty on the Panny (I guess I would have gotten 4 years on the Sony then, but that's overboard since I won't have it then ). If that SXRD materializes like we're hoping, I'm there. I think something will be close to those specs in the near future anyway. The exhaust for me was workable, but for a lot of people the front exhaust on the Sony could be a huge plus. You could shelf mount it, which in my opinion would look much better than dangling from a mount. I put my Panny in a box that I made, with a cutout in the back for exhaust.

 

[wterry]

Jacksonian,


Good idea with the Visa card thing. I doubt I'll have my Sony two years from now also, but its nice to have the extra warranty! Wish my bulb would last two years!!!!


Ok off the subject:


What have you done to calibrate your unit? All I have right now is the AVIA DVD, and was thinking about getting the SMART III sytem, once I get over 100 hours on the bulb. What I would really like is to find someone in the Atlanta area that is experienced with this stuff that could help me out calibrating the system. It would be nice to learn from someone who has more experience than me. Anyhow.


SillieBazzillie,


I think this about covers all the differences between the two units. Hope some of it you find useful.