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That's definitely true. Hey i need some help understanding something, at first i didn't understand what exactly what people meant when they said that most of these sony 4k models aren't true 4k, so after asking around i learnt that it means that even though the projectors has all the required pixels for 4k, the low quality lens couldn't resolve all the detail from every single pixel and as a result the image it threw on the screen wouldn't precisely 4k, it would be of a slightly lower resolution and would be something like e-shift. So i understood that the lens is the only thing that can prevent sony from actually displaying a 4k image. But after reading your posts i realised that even the panel drivers could also prevent it from showing a true 4k image, atleast if i understood correctly. And so as of now my little understanding is that even though a projector is native 4k, it could be prevented from throwing a TRUE 4k image by either the lense or the panel driver. Is that correct? Now after understanding this, jqmn came and basically threw me right back down the rabbit hole, telling me i've got it all wrong, and that even a bad lense can't prevent the sony projector from throwing a PRECISE, EXACT, TRUE 4K image! He says that even a lower end sony 4k projector will throw a true native 4k image just like the JVC RS4500, and that the only difference a lower end lense would make is that it would throw a lower quality image i.e sharpness, convergence, across the screen uniformity. But that it would still be native 4k. But what i've heard before this is different.

would really appreciate some help, i know i've really dragged this topic but really want to understand. Thanks
This is what I have been trying to tell you. True 4K has to do with the panels that are used. In other words no scaling. So if a projector uses 4K panels it is a native 4K projector. If it uses 1080P panels, then it is native 1080P. Now from there it comes down to processing, contrast and lens. The better the processing and the better the lens, the better the image will be. Just because a projector can't pass the single pixel test pattern does not mean it is not a 4K native projector. it just means that there is room for improvement. And the thing is, there is room for improvement for all projectors.
 

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Did your projector show 60fps 4k @ 10bit? This is awesome news Juan. You the man!!



More great news as I could not see it there at all. I wish you had one of a sun\sky scene. Thanks.
Here is a sky shot on my 1100ES:



That's supposed to be blue and white. No green or pink is in the source. The screenshot comparison above shows a similar issue as it does not do all of the shades of green like it's supposed to.
 

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I am still very interested in the 385 since I definitely can't tolerate the e-shift buzzing noise of my current JVC 4910 when accepting a 4k signal. My 4910 throws an amazing image in HD, without e-shift, using Darbee Darblet. I also got my new Panasonic UB900 to output a very nice downconverted SDR image. So now I can at least watch 4k movies and get the benefit of the Dolby Atomos / DTS:X sound track.

In fact I want to buy the 385 but there are so many unknowns for my situation since I need to run at low fan speed (the 385 is not as bright as the new JVS line so I may have to not view in HDR using an HD Fury). I care about major banding issues but if there is an occasional scene while gaming on my PS4 Pro then that is acceptable to me. if it happens all the time then that defeats the purpose of gaming in 4k and owning an $8,000 projector.

Thanks again to Juan and I can't wait to hear your impressions after you get your screen installed.
 

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Here is a sky shot on my 1100ES:



That's supposed to be blue and white. No green or pink is in the source. The screenshot comparison above shows a similar issue as it does not do all of the shades of green like it's supposed to.
Can you attach the original if it isn't too much trouble and thanks again! (don't ask, I should be working) I have to view from my phone and embedded is just too small.
 

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This is what I have been trying to tell you. True 4K has to do with the panels that are used. In other words no scaling. So if a projector uses 4K panels it is a native 4K projector. If it uses 1080P panels, then it is native 1080P. Now from there it comes down to processing, contrast and lens. The better the processing and the better the lens, the better the image will be. Just because a projector can't pass the single pixel test pattern does not mean it is not a 4K native projector. it just means that there is room for improvement. And the thing is, there is room for improvement for all projectors.
Okay so jqmn was right, It is actually a native 4k image, but there is room for improvement in terms of other picture quality aspects such as screen uniformity..

Let me put this to rest with just this Last question, if the answer to this is yes, i think i finally get it and would probably go back to wanting the new sony 4k models:
Is it true that even the lowest sony 4k projectors with the lowest lense and panel driver issues will still throw a 4k image just as well as a JVC RS4500 will in terms of both projectors projected images having the exact same number of pixels? With the only difference between the two being other picture quality aspects? You could just answer this with a yes and it would suffice.

Thanks mike. You probably never want to hear from me after this because of my constant questions and lack of understanding :p
 

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Can you attach the original if it isn't too much trouble and thanks again! (don't ask, I should be working) I have to view from my phone and embedded is just too small.
Just open the image in its own window.


https://i.imgur.com/yIkPxQJ.jpg
 

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It's NOT so much the lenses, it's the panel drivers as Seegs has reported multiple times. Plus there are variances in the lens' quality from unit to unit, but I bet dollars to doughnuts that if the panel driver issue were fixed then you'd at least see each pixel resolved by the lens, although some would be less delineated than others due to those variances and the quality of the factory panel convergence.
I obviously haven't tested one of the new Sony's but I have tested the previous runs. Their lens always had some minor roll off that softens the image a bit. But their panels also had issues. You HAD to setup Reality Creation carefully to get a sharp image. Turning it off would noticeably soften the image with a 4K test pattern or even content. This has always puzzled me as typically you would want any processing OFF for test patterns that deal with resolution. With the RS4500 you can turn everything off and it cruises through 4K test patterns, including single pixel on/off patterns that were mentioned before. I use one all the time for focusing and it is rock solid. The other thing that is interesting about the Sony 4K models is how they do with 1080p test patterns. Put up a single pixel grid pattern at 1080p on one of their projectors and it looks terrible. Banding, color uniformity and absolutely no pixel structure at all. Put the same pattern up on the 4500 and it looks almost identical to a 1080p projector that displays it perfectly, only slightly wider lines. The difference is MASSIVE.
 

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Discussion Starter #248
This is the kind of banding I see all the time on these models:



See here:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/116868

The kind of banding shown in your photo the kind related to the panel drivers. There is not enough information getting to the display, whether it be due to everything being done in 8bit or due to the panel driver not being sufficient in giving the panels all the information needed to avoid banding, I don't know, but this is exactly what I've seen in the image since the 1000ES, aka the first 4K SXRD projector. They haven't fully addressed this problem since.
I did not see that. However, I also do not have my screen yet so imperfections from my displayed surface could mask. But it looked nothing like the images thebrandon posted.

Juan
 

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This is what I have been trying to tell you. True 4K has to do with the panels that are used. In other words no scaling. So if a projector uses 4K panels it is a native 4K projector. If it uses 1080P panels, then it is native 1080P. Now from there it comes down to processing, contrast and lens. The better the processing and the better the lens, the better the image will be. Just because a projector can't pass the single pixel test pattern does not mean it is not a 4K native projector. it just means that there is room for improvement. And the thing is, there is room for improvement for all projectors.
Mike,

I do think the AV manufacturers in general, like a lot of industries selling to consumers and even selling B2B, make marketing statements that draw people in. To be 100% accurate with customers the marketing should say "uses 4k panels. Actual on-screen sharpness may vary based on signal source processing (from 4k UHD player, game console, etc), lens tolerance, internal processing and contrast settings". :) Ultimately a "native 4k" projector can throw an image that is made up of 4k fuzzy on screen pixels right? What matters is what is actually on the screen and not if the panel is native 4k.

But I see your point as well, there is no perfect display and even when all projectors have true 4k panels there will be some that look sharper on screen and can resolve more lines of resolution.

What we really need to move to is talking about ways to measure on screen resolution. I am not an optics engineer but I believe MTF graphs are used in the photography industry for lenses. I guess that is why the test patterns are so important (at least the ones regarding resolution and contrast for a discussion about resolution).
 

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I did not see that. However, I also do not have my screen yet so imperfections from my displayed surface could mask. But it looked nothing like the images thebrandon posted.

Juan
These photos were taken close up to the screen. How far away were you watching from? I realize that some might say "if I can't see it from my regular distance back, does it matter?" I suppose it might not to most, but we're after the answer to see if these are displaying true to the source. So a close up inspection is necessary. Pause the video clip and go up to your wall to see if any of these issues can be seen.
 

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Just open the image in its own window.


https://i.imgur.com/yIkPxQJ.jpg
Thanks! Looks like a non issue but time will tell.

I did not see that. However, I also do not have my screen yet so imperfections from my displayed surface could mask. But it looked nothing like the images thebrandon posted.

Juan
Really glad to hear. My photos were definitely exaggerated but I grabbed those so you'd know what to look for. My opinion is if its something you have to squint at, get your face directly in front of screen and really look for, its probably a non issue. I did want to double check, did you check the info on the 10 bit 4k 60fps vid to confirm that was being displayed?

Is your screen out for delivery? Excited for you!

Edit, I see Juan answered that question. Also, I agree with Seegs, I'd personally want to know for sure. Then comes the decision on if you can live with the faults.
 

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It looks like the projector was very close to his wall as the image only looked to be about 30 inches wide based on the window trim board dimensions.
 

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I obviously haven't tested one of the new Sony's but I have tested the previous runs. Their lens always had some minor roll off that softens the image a bit. But their panels also had issues. You HAD to setup Reality Creation carefully to get a sharp image. Turning it off would noticeably soften the image with a 4K test pattern or even content. This has always puzzled me as typically you would want any processing OFF for test patterns that deal with resolution. With the RS4500 you can turn everything off and it cruises through 4K test patterns, including single pixel on/off patterns that were mentioned before. I use one all the time for focusing and it is rock solid. The other thing that is interesting about the Sony 4K models is how they do with 1080p test patterns. Put up a single pixel grid pattern at 1080p on one of their projectors and it looks terrible. Banding, color uniformity and absolutely no pixel structure at all. Put the same pattern up on the 4500 and it looks almost identical to a 1080p projector that displays it perfectly, only slightly wider lines. The difference is MASSIVE.
Kris,

That is really interesting. I think the fact that the industry is moving so slowly to very high quality 4k image like the 4500 is very frustrating to a lot of us. But demand and competition should drive performance increases. If consumers are buying up existing projectors and there is no disruptor in the industry (where are you Epson?) then we will plod along with very slow improvements.
 

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I did not see that. However, I also do not have my screen yet so imperfections from my displayed surface could mask. But it looked nothing like the images thebrandon posted.

Juan
I wouldn't do any critical testing until you get a good screen installed. A decent screen is 1/2 the equation.
 

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Okay so jqmn was right, It is actually a native 4k image, but there is room for improvement in terms of other picture quality aspects such as screen uniformity..

Let me put this to rest with just this Last question, if the answer to this is yes, i think i finally get it and would probably go back to wanting the new sony 4k models:
Is it true that even the lowest sony 4k projectors with the lowest lense and panel driver issues will still throw a 4k image just as well as a JVC RS4500 will in terms of both projectors projected images having the exact same number of pixels? With the only difference between the two being other picture quality aspects? You could just answer this with a yes and it would suffice.

Thanks mike. You probably never want to hear from me after this because of my constant questions and lack of understanding :p
If the answer to that question was yes, then nobody would buy a more expensive projector, if a lower cost one threw just as good of an image. Yes in the fact that they will have the same number of pixels. It is the same with 1080P projectors.
This 1080P projector: https://epson.com/For-Home/Projectors/Home-Cinema/PowerLite-Home-Cinema-1040-1080p-3LCD-Projector/p/V11H772020
is not going to throw the same image as this projector: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL102506

Both are 1080P projectors, but the higher priced projector has better contrast, better lens and better processing. The higher priced one also has more features.
 

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I am still very interested in the 385 since I definitely can't tolerate the e-shift buzzing noise of my current JVC 4910 when accepting a 4k signal. My 4910 throws an amazing image in HD, without e-shift, using Darbee Darblet. I also got my new Panasonic UB900 to output a very nice downconverted SDR image. So now I can at least watch 4k movies and get the benefit of the Dolby Atomos / DTS:X sound track.

In fact I want to buy the 385 but there are so many unknowns for my situation since I need to run at low fan speed (the 385 is not as bright as the new JVS line so I may have to not view in HDR using an HD Fury). I care about major banding issues but if there is an occasional scene while gaming on my PS4 Pro then that is acceptable to me. if it happens all the time then that defeats the purpose of gaming in 4k and owning an $8,000 projector.

Thanks again to Juan and I can't wait to hear your impressions after you get your screen installed.
Does not have to be HDR. If you are viewing any 4K content (UHD BD) then E-shift is on by default. So if you do not want E-shift on, then you can't watch any 4K content on the JVC.
 

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I am attaching again, see below.



To my eyes and the attached image, this fails. This isn't PS4 Pro so we can rule that out. Hoping Juan can test. Any chance you can provide some translation on Ekki's video? Contrast? Black level comments or overall image quality thoughts? Thank you so much! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Hxbw_8QRU&t=437s

i will give a short summary:

- both projectors vw260 and vw360 have 1250 lumen (300 less than w550)
- contrast at the level of the predecessors: about 13.000 - 18.000 :1
- black level: vw260<vw360<550
- no DCI filter -> Triluminos color space (equal as predecessors)
- vw260 has the hardware of vw550 except brightness and (different) lamp
 
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