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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yep darinp, I'm not sur about the reference, I have discover this reference this morning and I know that SONY is presenting 3 new models at IFA, the HW30ES, the VW95ES and the..... high end model. So we have only a few hours to wait
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 /forum/post/20887845


Thanks Kraine. From that link it looks like the lamp is the same $1000 one that Sony used in the VW100:

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...Number=LMPH400


--Darin

Sony seeks profitability while the marketplace is going in the opposite direction.

This demonstrates their new (rehashed) marketing plans to sell less, but at higher prices.

Where is the breakthrough in technology were they offer superior performance commensurate with the higher pricing?

Who thinks they can succeed?
 

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It is fairly obvious that the new projector uses a Xenon lamp. There are certain advantages to using a Xenon lamp if one watches films and commensurate with a top of the line machine from a company, they elected to use a Xenon lamp. I guess they figured for those customers who want their best machine, the replacement lamop costs annually for high hour use machines will be bearable. Remember replacement lamps will street for hundreds less. So one must figure lamp per hour costs of less than say 50 cents The top of the line machine is not aimed at the mass market and it shouldn't be.


Sony new HW30ES is their effort at a entry level reasonable cost HT machine for the HT enthusiest and is fully competitive with those of other manufacturers.


Profitability is necessary for any company to survive.


That said, I am err in the dark about the new machine and will learn more like the rest of you in less than a day or so and will see it a week from tomorrow at Cedia. I will live until then and will be able to sleep nights despite the otherwise unbearable unbearable excitement and tension. Cigars and bourbon will get me through.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich /forum/post/20888169


It is fairly obvious that the new projector uses a Xenon lamp. There are certain advantages to using a Xenon lamp if one watches films and commensurate with a top of the line machine from a company, they elected to use a Xenon lamp.

I am not aware of any advantages to using a Xenon lamp in a digital projector.


It is true that film projectors use Xenon lamps. Film is transmissive and the colors on the screen depend on the color of the light that passes through the film. So, the color of film depends on the color of the light.


This is not true with a digital home theater projector. With our projectors, the colors on the screen are determined by the color filters (or color wheel). In addition, many projectors now have advanced color management systems where you can dial in colors to whatever standard that you want.


Xenon lamps have a more balanced color spectrum than UHP lamps do. This just means that with a UHP lamp, you wind up throwing away a lot of light in order to get the color balance that you want. What really matters is how much light makes it on the screen. Sony projectors using the lamp that is said to be in this new Sony are on the dimmer side of average.


So, I don't see any advantage to using Xenon. This having been said, there will be many people who make claims about intangible benefits of Xenon but there is nothing magic about color. It can be measured. If it looks different, there are differences in calibration. Period. End of story.
 

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This subject has been beaten to death previously. And there is much more to how your eyes see a picture than just how a meter measons the color points For example, three DLP chip machines have a more satisfying solid image than one chip DLP machines. Much less filtering has to be used with a Xenon bulb than with a UHP bulb. Light output considerations aside, because filtering must necessarily reduce light output when the limit is reached for one color, I suspect that there are other picture quality considerations which come into play. I leave it to others todiscuss them where they have been discussed in various threads.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich /forum/post/20888391


This subject has been beaten to death previously. And there is much more to how your eyes see a picture than just how a meter measons the color points For example, three DLP chip machines have a more satisfying solid image than one chip DLP machines. Much less filtering has to be used with a Xenon bulb than with a UHP bulb. Light output considerations aside, because filtering must necessarily reduce light output when the limit is reached for one color, I suspect that there are other picture quality considerations which come into play. I leave it to others todiscuss them where they have been discussed in various threads.

It has been beaten to death and the myth still persists.


3 chip dlps have a more stable image than 1 chip DLPs because 3 chippers have no color wheel. It has nothing to do with Xenon. Many 3 chippers, even high end ones, don't use Xenon lamps anymore.


The amount of filtering has nothing to do with anything. Light is filtered all the time by many things, the atmosphere included. Color filter merely selectively absorb certain frequencies of light and let others pass. On the screen, it still boils down to xyY.


I leave room for some expert to explain why Xenon might make a difference but so far no explanation has been offered that passes the straight face test.
 

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Given that there is so much about the HVS that still remains a mystery I agree with Mark but there is no hint of what the Xenon special sauce might entail so I also agree with LG.


The only reason (including pure marketing) for Sony to use a Xenon lamp in their new flagship would be to provide sheer light output if they are targeting say > 3,000 d65 calibrated lumens. In that case they likely use something bigger than the 400 W Cermax from the VWX00 series.


Of course one should never discount the cost savings of just reusing the VWX00 platform for a likely low volume seller!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Given that there is so much about the HVS that still remains a mystery . . .
What about it remains a mystery?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy
What about it remains a mystery?
How does it really work? How do we see and interpret color, motion, and contrast? I still have a significant amount of my investment in bleeding edge vision companies and some personal challenges in this area so I try to keep up as much as possible.
 

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Lawguy. I am issuing a preemptory challenge. I was making analogies, even I know that most three chippers do not use Xenon lamps.


My analogy was illustrative that while a three chipper and one chipper will measure the same xyYs, the appearance on the screen of the colors to your eyes will differ. I was trying to illustrate that there indeed can be differences to ones eyes between a machine lit with Xenon vs UHP. And your filter argument is just meant to obfiscate the issue. The degree of filtering a projector must employ does indead have an effect on image quality. Further, a Xenon lamp will drift with age much less than an UHP one.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
How does it really work? How do we see and interpret color, motion, and contrast? I still have a significant amount of my investment in bleeding edge vision companies and some personal challenges in this area so I try to keep up as much as possible.
I'm not sure why any of this would be a mystery. How colors are defined by measurements is accepted scientific fact. Also, athough there is some variation in how colors are interpreted by the eye by different people (color blindness is an extreme example), there is enough commonality in perception for there to be generally accepted and applicable measurements of color error.


So, if two projectors, one with Xenon and one with UHP, were calibrated and displaying a full field of a color with the same xyY, they will always look identical. One person who is color blind may see the color differently from someone who is not, but his color blind eye will perceive them to be the same. To think this this is not the case is kind of crazy because it would mean that an eye is perceiving two identical things differently.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich
Lawguy. I am issuing a preemptory challenge. I was making analogies, even I know that most three chippers do not use Xenon lamps.


My analogy was illustrative that while a three chipper and one chipper will measure the same xyYs, the appearance on the screen of the colors to your eyes will differ. I was trying to illustrate that there indeed can be differences to ones eyes between a machine lit with Xenon vs UHP. And your filter argument is just meant to obfiscate the issue. The degree of filtering a projector must employ does indead have an effect on image quality. Further, a Xenon lamp will drift with age much less than an UHP one.
Lamp drifting may be one benefit. I am not sure Xenon drifts less but I can understand why that might be true.


I don't understand why you think that the amount of filtering will affect what it seen on the screen. A filter merely blocks certain wavelengths of light. It simply throws it away.


Most three chip solutions have a red filter (which blocks blue and green and even some red as well), a Green filter (which blocks red, blue and even some green) and blue filter (which blocks red, green and some blue). Even a Xenon digital projector has these filters. The color of the filters will define the widest gamut available to be used by the projector.


A UHP lamp's colors are less balanced, typically there is more green than necessary and less red than wanted. So, the filters work to bring the colors into an alignment that is sought by the designers. Ideally, mixing the three will be very close to 6500k. With Xenon, the colors are more balanced to begin with and closer to 6500k so you are throwing less light away.


With both xenon and uhp, the light that is not thrown away is the same provided it measures the same.


There is nothing magic about this. It is simply like placing or removing weight on a scale to create a balance.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy
I'm not sure why any of this would be a mystery. How colors are defined by measurements is accepted scientific fact...
I agree. Current color theory as presented by the CIE charts is accepted scientific fact. HVS RGB(+?) (actual wavelenghts) stimulation and perceptions are not as clear cut.


I believe there is enough uncertainty in the HVS models that may allow Xenon lit digitals to provide a perception of a different visual image, you do not. In all honesty you may well be correct, so I will leave it at that.


It is interesting that some UHP filtered projector makers do provide a “Xenon mode” and some viewers do express comparative preference for such a mode.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
It is interesting that some UHP filtered projector makers do provide a Xenon mode and some viewers do express comparative preference for such a mode.
This is true. Some people also like the Stage or Cinema Modes. To each his own. The fact that a UHP based projector can mimic a Xenon mode suggests that there is something measurable going on with what is perceived as a Xenon look.
 

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Damn. An admission against interest, an exception to the hearsay rule. Of course our statements are in writing and the hearsay rule is not applicable.


Might one guess that Lawguy is a lawyer and I used to be one. We are friend so please all just look at this as two friends disagreeing on whether Jeter should have the Yankee lead off spot.
 
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