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Discussion Starter #1
I have read that people are saying the xbr2 projection TV's by Sony(KDP-65XBR2) are far better then the xbr that they replaced (KP-65XBR10W).Here are some facts on both sets-I have owned both sets and can give you my opinions and some of the facts behind both sets



Fact 1: Both sets use liquid coupled lens systems


Fact 2: The xbr sets use a 5 element lens system (Delta 37S lens)

The xbr2 sets use a 6 element lens system (Delta 90 lens)

- Both lens are manufactured by Corning Precision lens-


Fact 3: xbr2 sets have the I-link(1394) connectors and have

a built in HDTV tuner.


Fact 4: xbr uses a ----Super Fine--- extended def. microfocus crt's

xbr2 uses a -----High Def.---- microfocus crt's

(the high def crt is suppose to produce sharper focus over

the super fine crt)


The first thing to note is the default picture modes and the default color temperature modes between the two sets are very different,so it did take me a while to match the two sets as closely as possible to each other in color and brightness,so this would not play a part in the comparison between the two sets.

Having compared the sets side by side with the same sources played on both sets,the xbr2 definitely has a more detailed picture (ex. buttons on peoples shirts and back ground details are very defined on the xbr2)these same details on the xbr looked softer,not as defined. I tend to believe that the new 6 element lens in the xbr2 is the difference in giving it the 3D look.I have compared this set to the Pioneer Elites and Sony has done their homework,the xbr2 (KDP-65xbr2 I own)in my opinion was far more detailed and sharper than the 64" Elite.

I would say the xbr (KP-65xbr10W) was on par with the Elite.

I (Wife and kid also) have spent many,many, hours in comparing and gathering information on HDTV's and can tell you that I do believe that the new xbr2's are by far the best HDTV RPTV's out at this moment.]
 

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Sounds good. Have you looked at other things like edge enhacement (ringing) and quality of its RGB. How does this set performs in grayscale tracking department? How about its OTA tuner. Line doubler is another area of interest. Sonys are typically some what red-orange rather than red-red. Are the CRTs color corrected for both red and green? how about gray uniformity, corner sharpness and linearity? I would like to get one of these but have held til find some answers. Congrats.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
After owning the set for a month I used Video Essentials and Avai Guide to Home Theater to adjust the video section.The reds are very red,in fact they were overdriven slightly. The grayscale and black level adjustments looked very good, very little adjustment needed (Pro mode,Warm color temp).I have not noticed any ringing.As far as edge enhancement, I think this is dependent on the source material.OTA tuner is on par with other TV's I have owned ,I do not watch much analog OTA TV,once you get used to digital and HDTV ,analog looks very washed out and the over all picture looks dull (even line doubled).To see what this set can really do watch HD on PBS or Disney's Dinosaur,Bugs Life or the Fifth Element just to name a few, you will really be knocked out. I have a Sony DVP-S9000ES hooked up to video 6 input.Having good hardware along with any HDTV is essential to the quality of the picture you see on the TV.(note: when comparing any HDTV the source material and hardware hooked up to the TV are very important to the over all picture quality you see on the TV) .
 

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Just entering my thread here since you guys are on the "front line." Please test for this!!


See original thread for initial details. In brief, inputting 480p (progressive) dvd into inputs 5 and 6 result in very noticeable ringing, like the sharpness control is on steroids. Ringing is a pattern of "ghost lies" echoing to the right of vertical lines. (Note: for evaluation both units were properly set up prior to testing with AVIA, so don't ask!)


Anyway, took a road trip to evaluate a second XBR2 unit to eliminate the possibility of the first being faulty. Unfortunately, the second unit evaluated shows ringing to the same degree. Bad thing.


Owners of xxXBR2 RPTVs: easy test. Set wide mode to "normal" (4:3). Turn off the source for that input, and hopefully it will out up a black screen. I'm seeing ringing off to the right of the 4:3 box... it's not part of the actual 4:3 image, it's in the grey filler bars. That's interesting, and a possible clue to the culprit?


Other tests: Put up any AVIA pattern with log scale window or 30-50 IRE window on black background. Look at the left edge of the window for ringing. Also, sharpness pattern, resolution pattern.


The visibility of the flaw can be enhanced by significantly dropping the brightness, to near minimum


The ringing is also visible in "real-life" viewing.


Both units have a build date of September, 2001.
 

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Bumping up for the ringing issue. It's important!


I'm concerned about it because the set is just so GOOD in almost every other aspect.


Color temp and greyscale look very nice using my custom optical comparator. Good detail, contrast, and black level stability.


I want one! But without the ringing!


If others units are or aren't exhibiting this, please report, including build date (on the label on the back of the set. Trying to determine the trend. Thanks!


And, thanks for the info on the XBR2 lenses... Sony discloses nothing and the dealers frown on people taking off the back of the TVs!
 

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I think the best way to see edge enhancement besides disabling the SVM is to feed the monitor with your computer.

Most if not all DVD players have EE as well which adds to the puzzle. A Radeon based or GeForce based system tells you a whole lot more than a stand alone DVD player.
 

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My player is actually pretty "clean, and the image on my current 65XBR10W has virtually no ringing.


With the very same player (my own) on the 65 and 57 XBR2, as I noted, the ringing is severe.
 

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HDTVNut


Did you get to check your set for ringing? I'm considering one of these sets and have heard so many good things about it. The ringing and video 5 input problem are the only negatives I've heard so far.


Does anyone else out there have any comment on the xxXBR2 RPTV?? I'm interested in the 57" model.


Thanks.
 

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I have the set and see the ringing I called sony and there sending a tech out should be a simple fix for this. All I can say is the set is stunning in 480P and 1080i I cant notice the ringing on normal viewing. This is the set to own sony will come through for us Im sure, but you guys are very critical and see things that many customers would not see so most of the buyers would never see this flaw. I do commend you for getting this out tho we need the best picture we can get ! Anthony................
 

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hi...second XBR2 (September build); no 'ringing'; geometry is as perfect as any RP i've seen (beats my Mitsu HD in another room too); and all the features everyone's discussed. Very happy with it; more so than a friend who has the 65XBR10 from last year (mine is the 57); another friend has the new 57HW40, and it's fine too...though with 4 local HD OTA stations, the integrated tuner and associated twinview is awesome; hardly ever use my HD100 now, except for HD HBO movies and HDnet. Very happy; wouldn't hesitate to recommend. Wouldn't mind if the flash-focus was on the remote; but other than setting it up once, never have had to use it, and note that the Sept. build is better out of the box than the Aug. set was after tweaking by a service tech.


cheers..


gene inger
www.ingerletter.com
 

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Asab,


Thanks for the info. If possible, could you observe / ask what exactlly the fix for the issue is and if there is an official service bulletin for it? I can supply "instruments" to assist if the tech is tight-lipped... ;-)


Hope it fixes it! What's your ETA for service?


While I have a set on order with money down on it, I'm holding off on delivery until I'm fairly sure the issue is resolvable.


Gene,


You indicate this is your second XBR2. What was up with the first one?


Also, have you had a chance to run the "ringing tests" using test patterns as indicated? They tend to be very revealing.


Thanks everyone!
 

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I just checked out a third unit at yet another dealer.


RINGING, RINGING, RINGING.


This is discouraging. I hope that maybe there is still some SVM enabled in all the modes, which can still be defeated. Otherwise, what's going on?


Model evaluated: KDP-57XBR2

Build date: October 2001
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I have tried every test you mentioned and the very faint line in the gray area of the 4:3 screen is the only thing that I can see.I have tried every video input and HDTV tuner and I can not see any "ringing" or ghosting effect .I even called my buddy to come over and see if he , my wife or myself could see anything and none of us could see any artifacts of any kind.My set was also built in September.What input is being used, is this visiable with a progressive dvd player using component input 5 or 6.I'm not sure exactly what you are refering to, the picture is absolutely stunning and I have compared many sets.I even went back to the Audio / Video store were I purchased the TV, to compare the picture even more with other HDTV's there, and myself and the owner of the store (which by the way he has one at home, which by itself should tell you that he sells no less then 20 different HDTV's alone, and he said that he picked the one he thought was the best one in his store to have in his own home).I also asked him if any of the xbr2's that he has sold, if any one has complained about anything , and he said not one person has complained about the TV picture or this so called "ringing".
 

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I'm almost sold, but I'm wondering if the IEEE 1394 connections will support the 5C Digital Transmission Copy Protection scheme, perhaps through a software upgrade. Is there anything in the XBR2's documentation discussing the capabilities of the "iLink" connection?
 

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Sorry to stray off topic for a sec...


While I've VERY curious to know the outcome of this thread (I am planning on buying a 57XBR2 myself), I must jump in and point out that asking TV salesmen to remark on product quality will generally get you nowhere. ;)


I once asked several salesmen at a high-end a/v store about the quality of the infamous Sony 36XBR200 and they all swore up and down that they'd never heard of any geometry problems. None. Not a one. We here at AVSForum know that's a crock ;) ;)


I now return you to an excellent and informative thread...

--Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I have been dealing with Audio/Video salesmen for many years, I know the owner fairly well, not just another salesmen, for the most part, I know far more about the product then the salesmen.Lets not get this thread way of the topic of the xbr2.Let's not get carried away with salesmen talk,this could take up a topic in itself,Enough said.Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #17
This is a quote from Sony's press release, ( http://64.35.93.160/pressrelease/116 ). All three of the new 16:9 aspect ratio HDTV (XBR2) sets feature two i.LINK® (IEEE-1394) digital interfaces with the so-called 5C-endorsed Digital Transmission Content Protection software, along with other advanced technologies. With the i.LINK interface, copyright protected high-definition content can be transferred between the new televisions similarly equipped digital cable set-top boxes as well as satellite receivers, camcorders, and video recorders. As far as being able to record from the OTA tuner to the output of one of these connections seems to be up in the air at this moment!! I'm very curious how the new Mitsubishi digital recorders with 1394-connector will interface with the XBR2 sets ?.


 

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I can give you a quick summary of how the i-link on the new XBR2's will "interact" with other devices, especially in regards to recording the OTA signal from the sets... it WONT. Interacting is obviously a two way situation and the i-links on the sets are only inputs, so no luck there. I guess you could get that new Mits recorder to output an HD recording that you recorded some other way, but unfortunately you'll never be doing anything with that XBR2 reciever other than watching signals once. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Personally I was very very sad to hear this as its pretty much the only thing that kept me from buying it. You could do a search on this site for more info on this.

Matt
 

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Ive attached a simulated image illustrating approximately the ringing effect observed on 3 units (1 example of 65XBR2, 2 examples 57XBR2). This is a rendering based on the AVIA "Black bars with log steps" pattern.


This is evident even in movie and pro picture modes, which typically have defeated or minimized SVM.


Also, I ran user sharpness to minimum and though the image got softer, the ringing remained; it is not a result of excessive user sharpness level.


I am concerned. It needs a fix, or at least a darn good explanation (and a work-around...)


I will examine two more 57XBR2 units early next week. I am driven.... these units otherwise look too good to be sullied by this kind of defect.


Please note, this rendering is a **SIMULATION** intended to give people an idea of what to look for, not reflect the actual severity of the artifact!! (Although it does seem pretty bad on the sets I've seen...)
 

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Mike:

Oh boy are kidding. That is some REAL artifacts..

I cannot believe a $6000 set would be so faulty!


Also while it is a serious problem it doesn't look like typical edge enhancement.
 
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