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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Due to a 4wheeling accident, I had to sell my awesome econowave package. I'm back to my standby Cerwin Vega 211R. Which are very very nice speakers. But while the treble is more "airy" sounding, I am missing the HUGE soundstage of the Econowaves.

My long term plans include building 4pi speakers. And I'm just wondering if those will match up with the Econowave soundstage? The incredibly huge soundstage the Econowave provide, just makes things "more fun".


Btw, the "airy" sounding soft dome tweeters get boring after awhile. At least for home theater.
 

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What? You just sold most of the Pi4 components not too long ago.


I haven't personally heard any Econowaves so I cannot comment on them. My Pi4s do a pretty good job with a wide soundstage. How wide is the room that you are placing them in?
 

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as they are quite close in design, they will probably be quite close in performance.


ideally, the horn should be larger than the woofer, but that creates a tough sell form factor, so the horn gets compromised typically.


geddes' summa gets it almost right, but he has gone off the deep end on pricing...which is fine, but excludes lots of folks from participating (on axis suckout is still a problem with his designs). an oblate spheroid horn with a 90x50 or so would be very nice. based on some recent posts, i wouldn't be surprised to see this pop up shortly.


integrating danley-style synergy horns into a large o.s. horn such that they don't mess up the frequency response would seem closest to the holy grail. maybe the big danley synergy horns can be corrected with room correction or something. they are still too expensive for most folks around here, even though they may be worth their price.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yeah, I had to sell a lot of stuff to fix my friends 4wheeler that I totaled when I hit a tree with it. Bent the frame & killed a few other parts. I've already shelled out $1500 and still have another $500-$1000 to go, depending on final labor costs and any unknown broken parts.


I'm still set on going 4pi next year though. But will follow all the horn builds as they come along. Like what LTD02 is talking about.

I was just kind of shocked when I watched "Chuck" last night. With my Econowaves, the theme song would roll all around my room with very cool effects. That was all missing when I listened to it with my CV's. Huge difference.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie /forum/post/19517236


Due to a 4wheeling accident, I had to sell my awesome econowave package. I'm back to my standby Cerwin Vega 211R. Which are very very nice speakers. But while the treble is more "airy" sounding, I am missing the HUGE soundstage of the Econowaves.

My long term plans include building 4pi speakers. And I'm just wondering if those will match up with the Econowave soundstage? The incredibly huge soundstage the Econowave provide, just makes things "more fun".


Btw, the "airy" sounding soft dome tweeters get boring after awhile. At least for home theater.

Eddie, not to derail the thread.... the thought went through my head that CZ is for Chay Zed (probably mispelled)?
 

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I've tried the threaded version of the 4pi horn out on some JBL 2416 CDs, I've also read a post from another guy feeling the H290 horn was the weakest part of the 4pi. They don't image quite as well as i'd like and the long throat seamed to have a little HOM, it is possible the threaded version sounds different than the bolt on. I actually tried out several horns and the best one I've heard is the HM-17 used on the Pro-10, (I owned pro-10's for a few weeks). It doesn't extend that low but it just plain "sounds HUGE" and has no signs of harshness. Of course all of my opinions are based on how they sound only...that's my only test.


I haven't heard the QSC Horn made popular in the Econowave which from what I hear is an outstanding sounding waveguide.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 /forum/post/19520294


I've tried the threaded version of the 4pi horn out on some JBL 2416 CDs, I've also read a post from another guy feeling the H290 horn was the weakest part of the 4pi. They don't image quite as well as i'd like and the long throat seamed to have a little HOM, it is possible the threaded version sounds different than the bolt on. I actually tried out several horns and the best one I've heard is the HM-17 used on the Pro-10, (I owned pro-10's for a few weeks). It doesn't extend that low but it just plain "sounds HUGE" and has no signs of harshness. Of course all of my opinions are based on how they sound only...that's my only test.


I haven't heard the QSC Horn made popular in the Econowave which from what I hear is an outstanding sounding waveguide.

My 4pis seem to image extremely well when they are toed-in towards the listener. I have not tried them crossed before the listening position, like Wayne suggests, which provides a larger sweet spot. When they face straight forward, they lose some of their imaging (note that they are 6" from untreated side walls which could explain the imaging loss due to reflections).
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

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Originally Posted by nichol1997 /forum/post/19521458


My 4pis seem to image extremely well when they are toed-in towards the listener. I have not tried them crossed before the listening position, like Wayne suggests, which provides a larger sweet spot. When they face straight forward, they lose some of their imaging (note that they are 6" from untreated side walls which could explain the imaging loss due to reflections).

Crossing over in front of the listening position provided a substantial performance increase for me. Things just "fell into place" when I set my speakers to cross about 1' in front of my face.


The Econowaves pointing straight forward were terrible. Music sounded like it was coming from the direction of the speakers. Horrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee /forum/post/19520145


Eddie, not to derail the thread.... the thought went through my head that CZ is for Chay Zed (probably mispelled)?

"Canal Zone"




It's often confused with Czechoslovakia and CZ motorcycles (chay zed) and CZ guns. Or "Crazy" by those who know me more than just a little.

 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 /forum/post/19520294


I've tried the threaded version of the 4pi horn out on some JBL 2416 CDs, I've also read a post from another guy feeling the H290 horn was the weakest part of the 4pi. They don't image quite as well as i'd like and the long throat seamed to have a little HOM, it is possible the threaded version sounds different than the bolt on. I actually tried out several horns and the best one I've heard is the HM-17 used on the Pro-10, (I owned pro-10's for a few weeks). It doesn't extend that low but it just plain "sounds HUGE" and has no signs of harshness. Of course all of my opinions are based on how they sound only...that's my only test.


I haven't heard the QSC Horn made popular in the Econowave which from what I hear is an outstanding sounding waveguide.

Interesting. Those 4pi horns are fairly expensive when compared to some of the other horns popular with the DIY crowd.

When I build the 4pi though, I'll be doing it exactly as Wayne Parham has designed his. 2226H and H290 and duplicate cabinet specs. But likely with the budget crossover. If it's only 5% better than my Econowaves were, I'll be pretty happy.

I do have high hopes the DE250's are more "airy" than the 220's though.
 

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two things. the 2226h is a no frills pro performance tool. there is little if any fluff built into its price. it costs relatively more, but it does relatively more (from low distortion to minimal power compression).


the ae td15m and the 18sounds 15nmb420 are in the same league, rcf has some there too and b&c is knocking at the door.


the second thing is load up those horns with some mass. rope caulk and duct tape or anything else...just add some mass to those horns and you will be much better off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/19522050


two things. the 2226h is a no frills pro performance tool. there is little if any fluff built into its price. it costs relatively more, but it does relatively more (from low distortion to minimal power compression).

Yes, and I listen to my music & movies at a slightly louder dB level than most do. So I can appreciate the low distortion of the 2226H. As well, its dynamic capability combined with low distortion allows me to easily run without a center channel speaker. Dialogue actually sounds clearer to me than any arrangement I've had that included a center channel. Which has included B&W and a Rocket Bigfoot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/19522050


the ae td15m and the 18sounds 15nmb420 are in the same league, rcf has some there too and b&c is knocking at the door.

If all are in the "same league", I'll have to go with the speaker that has more tried & true crossover designs out there and is easier to purchase.

Although the other speakers are more aesthetically pleasing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/19522050


the second thing is load up those horns with some mass. rope caulk and duct tape or anything else...just add some mass to those horns and you will be much better off.

I never got around to trying that with my ewaves. Wish I had.
 

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"Dialogue actually sounds clearer to me than any arrangement I've had that included a center channel."


+1. but, i'm open to thinking that something may have not been optimized in my old setup.


"Although the other speakers are more aesthetically pleasing."


beauty is in the eye of the beholder. i don't think any of these speakers look nice. i'm not the kind of guy who cares how it looks under the hood. i was just commenting on them from a performance perspective. td15m and 15nmb420 aren't lookers, just good tools for the trade.


the bms 15s320 is not a bad option either. like i said, rcf has some good ones, and b&c has some that are knocking at the door.


if cost is no object, an mtm employing 18sound 12nmb420 or an aetd12m would probably be the dealio.
 

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I built the "by the book" upgraded 4Pi's and I am very happy compared to my Audax MTMs with the dome tweeters. A much more natural sound and the dialog is very clear. Sorry I can't compare to any econowaves, but if someone wants to load theirs in a car an come over I'm up for it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nichol1997 /forum/post/19521458


My 4pis seem to image extremely well when they are toed-in towards the listener. I have not tried them crossed before the listening position, like Wayne suggests, which provides a larger sweet spot. When they face straight forward, they lose some of their imaging (note that they are 6" from untreated side walls which could explain the imaging loss due to reflections).

Yea I toe my speakers that way too, at the center seat, I've also experimented with 2 feet in front. But my room is treated so reflections aren't an issue.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie /forum/post/19522032


Interesting. Those 4pi horns are fairly expensive when compared to some of the other horns popular with the DIY crowd.

.

Yea, they aren't cheap (~$40) They aren't a bad sounding horn, but I also have $200 JBL horns on hand to which also have a bigger sound that the H290. The HM-17 (used on Pro-10) cost a whooping $5... and It sounds Huge
with great detail, straight or toed.....go figure! But it's plastic is very thin so damping the back would probably help even more.
 

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"and It sounds Huge"


my guess at what you are observing is the high frequency where the small horns give up directivity control. a lot of folks prefer traditional semi-omni speakers for their "large" sound. others like to yank the frequency down to as low as possible in a giant horn. just different approaches and different sounds. a small horn and a cd will be close to a traditional tweeter, though not quite as flat in frequency, but much bigger in dynamics. ideally, you'd match the off axis response of the horn to the woofer whichever size you choose. best,
 

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Do you think a center channel will fill in the center that may be lost with a smaller horn and the inability to toe in, like behind an AT screen where room is at a premium.....and resembles my situation.....almost exactly
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/19524630


"and It sounds Huge"


my guess at what you are observing is the high frequency where the small horns give up directivity control. a lot of folks prefer traditional semi-omni speakers for their "large" sound. others like to yank the frequency down to as low as possible in a giant horn. just different approaches and different sounds. a small horn and a cd will be close to a traditional tweeter, though not quite as flat in frequency, but much bigger in dynamics. ideally, you'd match the off axis response of the horn to the woofer whichever size you choose. best,

,

Why it sounded Huge...I don't know! But it did, and it had absolutely no harshness, so you may be very right when you say small horns will resemble a traditional tweeter. MK Theater also had these in his room and he aslo thought they sounde HUGE... not as big as his horns the size as a VW bug.
As for how it does off Axis...well I've seen post of measurements made on it and it did well down to around 1500hz so, no It can't be crossed low like larger horns...it's a small horn and when I first saw it I didn't expect much...I was very surprised.


I'ts only an observation between the two... If the OP wants a huge soundstage they H290 didn't impress me as much as other horns have in the soundstage size department. If his Econowaves sounded Huge as he states I'm not sure the H290 will quite quench his thirst.
 

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Confused about the toe in............


No center channel? What about the other seats?


I was going to go for 3 behind the screen (very low RT60 room with lots of treatments and bass traps), but this has me confused.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by two-rocks /forum/post/19525628


Confused about the toe in............


No center channel? What about the other seats?


I was going to go for 3 behind the screen (very low RT60 room with lots of treatments and bass traps), but this has me confused.

I posted my concerns over at the Pi forum about the toe in requirement. The answer I got was that building three for my LCR would reduce the amount of toe in if any at all that was enjoyed Pi owners. Meaning the center would do just that, anchor the center position.
 
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