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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
First, some background. When two devices do their HDMI handshake, the source is supposed to learn what the TV can handle, and could then decide what to send down the pipe. For example, if a TV accepts only PCM 2.0 audio, a Dolby-5.1-capable source can decide to send something more compatible. And yet, my Blu-ray player gives me a menu to select among PCM 2.0, multi-channel PCM, DTS-5.1-reconvert, and native bitstream. Some sources have similar selectors to allow 1080p24 or not, even allowing it to be pushed to TVs that don't advertise support for it.


Here's what I'm curious about. New 3D TVs will support several 3D-video formats (e.g., frame compatible, page-flip, etc.). Blu-ray players and STB sources may also support several formats. HDMI (theoretically) will help them agree on a compatible one. But will the sources offer user control menus to let me select between the default format and another supported one? Aside from speculation, I haven't found any user manuals, yet, that describe how new 3D sources will actually work.


This could be important for compatibility with older AVRs that only support frame-compatible 3D video, but which don't even acknowledge any support. If I can select side-by-side video on the source, then it will fit through such an older AVR. But, since that older AVR won't necessarily pass along the metadata to tell the TV the incoming video is side-by-side 3D instead of another 3D flavor or 2D, then I'd need some kind of knob on the TV, too. Will any new 3D TVs have controls like these?


I suspect we might only need controls like these for a couple of years while equipment is in transition, but I'm wondering if any of the new products will have those controls at all.
 

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I also am waitiing for the first user manual for 3D Blu-ray player to become available to see what all of the output options will be.

HDMI content contains both flags and I beleive other non display content whiich describes the content the is being trasnsmitted. This is evidences by the fact that all HDMI capable TVs have no problem today in identifying the resolutons, frame rate, or acpect ratio of the content they are receiving.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenZ /forum/post/18222394


First, some background. When two devices do their HDMI handshake, the source is supposed to learn what the TV can handle, and could then decide what to send down the pipe. For example, if a TV accepts only PCM 2.0 audio, a Dolby-5.1-capable source can decide to send something more compatible. And yet, my Blu-ray player gives me a menu to select among PCM 2.0, multi-channel PCM, DTS-5.1-reconvert, and native bitstream. Some sources have similar selectors to allow 1080p24 or not, even allowing it to be pushed to TVs that don't advertise support for it.


Here's what I'm curious about. New 3D TVs will support several 3D-video formats (e.g., frame compatible, page-flip, etc.). Blu-ray players and STB sources may also support several formats. HDMI (theoretically) will help them agree on a compatible one. But will the sources offer user control menus to let me select between the default format and another supported one? Aside from speculation, I haven't found any user manuals, yet, that describe how new 3D sources will actually work.

3D BD players will only have a single 3D format called Frame Sequential (AKA Page Flip).


Within that single format they will have two different resolutions and frame rates depending on the source of the 3D (per eye) :


1920x1080x24P for film


1920x1080x60i for HD video

Quote:
This could be important for compatibility with older AVRs that only support frame-compatible 3D video, but which don't even acknowledge any support. If I can select side-by-side video on the source, then it will fit through such an older AVR. But, since that older AVR won't necessarily pass along the metadata to tell the TV the incoming video is side-by-side 3D instead of another 3D flavor or 2D, then I'd need some kind of knob on the TV, too. Will any new 3D TVs have controls like these?

It is most likely that 1.3 receivers will not be able to deal with 3D BD signals:

http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/


Panasonic's 3D BD player will offer 2 HDMI outputs:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1231167


The BDA said that 3D BD players will be "agnostic" meaning that it will be the job of the 3DTV to deal with the 3D BD signal and not the 3D BD player.


It should be the same for 3D from "broadcast." (CBL/SAT).

Quote:
I suspect we might only need controls like these for a couple of years while equipment is in transition, but I'm wondering if any of the new products will have those controls at all.

There isn't going to be a single 3D format in use for all 3D content.
 

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It appears that at least some 3D HDTVs will offer a user setting to select the 3D mode of the input. This is a means of allowing AVRs or HDMI switchers to be used that only support HDMI 1.3. There will also be some 3D sources that only have HDMI 1.3 (e.g., existing satellite receivers) and will use such modes as side-by-side images sent in a standard 1080p format. Also I suspect that some BD players (with HDMI 1.4 outputs) will allow the option to output dual 1080p/60 video streams in addition to the required (by the Blu-ray 3D spec.) native dual 1080p/24 or dual 1080i video streams. Finally, for 3D BD players they may also have a user setting to force the type of 3D output to use in order to allow for HDMI 1.3 AVRs or even 3D HDTVs that only use HDMI 1.3 (in which case the same 3D mode would need to be set in both the source device and in the HDTV).


Bottom line seems to be to look for HDTV models that have user settings to force the 3D mode that is being used for the input and for any source device (e.g., BD player) that supports multiple output modes, look for models that have a user setting to force the 3D output mode.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones /forum/post/18224298


Bottom line seems to be to look for HDTV models that have user settings to force the 3D mode that is being used for the input and for any source device (e.g., BD player) that supports multiple output modes, look for models that have a user setting to force the 3D output mode.

That's what I'll continue to suspect until some of the manuals/product arrive. In the meantime, I've got an image in my head of a switchboard operator from years ago plugging in from & to cables to connect a call.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18223665


3D BD players will only have a single 3D format called Frame Sequential (AKA Page Flip).

While frame-sequential may be the format on the disc, I'm guessing that 3D BD players will have to at least know how to "drop one eye" to provide a 2D-compatible output for non-3D TVs. And current 2D players allow reselection of output resolution. So I'm expecting next-gen BD players to have at least this much video processing before output, maybe more. Have you heard manufacturers saying their 3D BD players will only output 3D video in the same format as what was placed on the disc?
Quote:
The BDA said that 3D BD players will be "agnostic" meaning that it will be the job of the 3DTV to deal with the 3D BD signal and not the 3D BD player.

I took the "agnostic" comment to mean that the BDA didn't care whether the TV had active shutter glasses, passive ones, or magic in terms of how the 3D eventually gets to viewers' eyes. Yes, it will be the 3D TV's job to deal with rendering. I'm just curious about how the video signal gets from one box to the next, long before the rendering happens.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenZ /forum/post/18224737


While frame-sequential may be the format on the disc, I'm guessing that 3D BD players will have to at least know how to "drop one eye" to provide a 2D-compatible output for non-3D TVs. And current 2D players allow reselection of output resolution. So I'm expecting next-gen BD players to have at least this much video processing before output, maybe more. Have you heard manufacturers saying their 3D BD players will only output 3D video in the same format as what was placed on the disc?

1. What would be the purpose of owning a 3D BD player, a 3D BD and attaching it to a HDTV (and not a 3DTV)?


2. The EDID will probably prevent you from getting an image on the HDTV if the player was in 3D mode. Or . . .


3. The EDID may automatically switch the 3D BD into a 2D BD if it isn't sensing a 3DTV at the other end.

Quote:
I took the "agnostic" comment to mean that the BDA didn't care whether the TV had active shutter glasses, passive ones, or magic in terms of how the 3D eventually gets to viewers' eyes. Yes, it will be the 3D TV's job to deal with rendering. I'm just curious about how the video signal gets from one box to the next, long before the rendering happens.

Here you go:

http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/
 

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In order to take advantage of what 1.4 has to offer is it a firmware update to the components? Or is it a different internal device? I understand new cables, but was just curious if I need to wait to purchase a new receiver that has HDMI 1.4?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blambert007 /forum/post/18229086


In order to take advantage of what 1.4 has to offer is it a firmware update to the components? Or is it a different internal device?
Can older HDMI (v.1.0 - 1.3) devices be firmware-upgraded to take advantage of the new features introduced in HDMI 1.4?

Quote:
Probably not. Most of the new features introduced in HDMI 1.4 will require a new HDMI chip to enable, and cannot be upgraded via firmware.
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdm...1_4_faq.aspx#7


If you have a 1.3 receiver then you should look at this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1231167

Quote:
I understand new cables, but was just curious if I need to wait to purchase a new receiver that has HDMI 1.4?

No new cables required as long as you are using an HDMI Cat 2 high speed rated cable.


A 1.4 receiver would be desireable if you wanted to do all of your switching through it which includes 3D video from BD.
 

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So, if I purchase a AVR that is 1.3 (network ready) and a new LED (with 3D)that is 1.4 i can switch the 3D through the TV for that function only? Then switch everything else through the AVR? Is it better to not switch through the AVR?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blambert007 /forum/post/18229418


So, if I purchase a AVR that is 1.3 (network ready) and a new LED (with 3D)that is 1.4 i can switch the 3D through the TV for that function only? Then switch everything else through the AVR? Is it better to not switch through the AVR?

The Panasonic 3D BD player is the only one that can direct 1.3 HD audio only from one of it's HDMI outputs and 3D video (plus HD Audio) from the other which would be attached to the 1.4 HDMI Input on the 3DTV to get 3D video.


This is for people who already have a 1.3 receiver and don't want to buy a new 1.4 receiver. It's a work around. There is some information on the internet that is saying that a 3D video signal will not pass through a 1.3 receiver:

http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/


If you are are considering a 3DTV in the next year or so and are in the market for a new receiver and don't already have a 1.3 HD Audio decoding receiver, then it might behove you to wait to see what develops with 1.4 receivers.


I just started this thread a few minutes ago:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1231425
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18225347


1. What would be the purpose of owning a 3D BD player, a 3D BD and attaching it to a HDTV (and not a 3DTV)?

Either 1) a misunderstanding that a newfangled player and disc will make everything on my (2D) TV look 3D, just like the salesdude promised, or 2) the hope that there's a 2D-compatible playback mode that will let me enjoy a movie before I buy the new 3D TV. Why do you ask?
Quote:
2. The EDID will probably prevent you from getting an image on the HDTV if the player was in 3D mode.

Or . . .

3. The EDID may automatically switch the 3D BD into a 2D BD if it isn't sensing a 3DTV at the other end.

Yeah, those are pretty much the alternatives: the source will choke on the TV's EDID, or throttle itself back to accommodate the TV's limitations.

I'd read that article before, but I think it's neither clear nor comprehensive. One example: he uses "over/under" to describe what others are calling "page flip" or "frame sequential", and then uses it again to describe the top/bottom frame-compatible format.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenZ /forum/post/18231508


Either 1) a misunderstanding that a newfangled player and disc will make everything on my (2D) TV look 3D, just like the salesdude promised, or 2) the hope that there's a 2D-compatible playback mode that will let me enjoy a movie before I buy the new 3D TV. Why do you ask?

You can simply buy a 3D BD and stick in any legacy BD player and see 2D on your 2D HDTV. The AVC-MVC encode allows this.


As far as anything else - we will have to wait umtil players and content get into the hands of reviewers to find out all the in's and out's of what can and can't be done

Quote:
Yeah, those are pretty much the alternatives: the source will choke on the TV's EDID, or throttle itself back to accommodate the TV's limitations

See above.

Quote:
I'd read that article before, but I think it's neither clear nor comprehensive. One example: he uses "over/under" to describe what others are calling "page flip" or "frame sequential", and then uses it again to describe the top/bottom frame-compatible format.

Over/Under and Top/Bottom are the same thing. Just different wording.


Frame Sequential (AKA Page flip) is a 3D format used by a display in conjunction with active shutter glasses that allows Full HD per eye (the only 3D format that does}. Here is a helpful link on the different 3D formats:

http://www.jvc.eu/3d_monitor/technology/video.html


Don't confuse the storage/encode method on BD (one "block frame" with L & R Full HD frames in Over/Under configuration) to the Over/Under 3D format which results in full H res but half V res.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18231642


Don't confuse the storage/encode method on BD (one "block frame" with L & R Full HD frames in Over/Under configuration) to the Over/Under 3D format which results in full H res but half V res.

That's exactly my point that HDGuru needlessly did confuse the two.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenZ /forum/post/18233142


That's exactly my point that HDGuru needlessly did confuse the two.

I don't see that.


He first mentions O/U when describing the configuration of the 1920x2205 "block frame" (my wording). That is correct - one frame on top of another only they are both Full HD (1920x1080)


Then 3 pargraphs latter he is discussing the 3D format that ESPN/Cable Labs wanted to have added to the 1.4 3D specs - 720P O/U which is a 3D format. He is referencing that against the Checkerboard 3D format that the Mits DLP RPTVs have to use.


There are two O/U formats in that article with each "block frame" having a total resolution of:


3D BD = 1920x2205


3D CBL = 1280x720


The difference is that with 3D BD, the display deconstructs the O/U 3D BD block frame then presents it in the Frame Sequential 3D format
 

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Perhaps 3D display manufacturers should include an HDMI 1.3 output which can be sent to your receiver for audio. So you would run HDMI 1.4 from the 3D BD player to your TV, then HDMI 1.3 (audio-only) from your TV to your legacy audio receiver. The TV would effectively be "splitting" the HDMI signal so no external splitter would be required.


This would give maximum flexibility and compatibility in the short term since many will still have HDMI 1.3 audio equipment.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrennem /forum/post/18233956


Perhaps 3D display manufacturers should include an HDMI 1.3 output which can be sent to your receiver for audio. So you would run HDMI 1.4 from the 3D BD player to your TV, then HDMI 1.3 (audio-only) from your TV to your legacy audio receiver. The TV would effectively be "splitting" the HDMI signal so no external splitter would be required.


This would give maximum flexibility and compatibility in the short term since many will still have HDMI 1.3 audio equipment.

Done!


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1231167
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18223665


3D BD players will only have a single 3D format called Frame Sequential (AKA Page Flip).


...


The BDA said that 3D BD players will be "agnostic" meaning that it will be the job of the 3DTV to deal with the 3D BD signal and not the 3D BD player.


It should be the same for 3D from "broadcast." (CBL/SAT).


There isn't going to be a single 3D format in use for all 3D content.

This is wrong. The Storage format (e.g on the BD) has no relevance for the output format (e.g. on HDMI). And the HDMI output format has one common format: Frame Packing for progressive formats.


The BD 3D format provides two 1080p24 streams to the player. The player can then reformat these two images into any "full" or "half" 3D formats that are supported by the display device.


The output formats can be:

- frame packing for progressive or interlaced formats

- field sequential

- side-by-side

- over-under

- line interleaved

- column interleaved

- pixel interleaved (checkerboard)

- anaglyph


The sequential, side-by-side, over-under and interleaved formats can be used in one of two ways:

- "half": frame compatible to the original format, dropping half of the original pixels

- "full": extended frame structures, holding all pixels of the two source images


Frame packing for progressive formats is similar to "full" over-under, but with an additional gap inbetween the two images in the extended frame. Frame packing for interlaced formats is a strange creature, that sequences 4 fields in one extended progressive frame, with gaps inbetween.


The HDMI 1.4 standard specifies a number of these combinations as optional formats, but not all of them. HDMI 1.4a is expected to add a few more. Other display devices might support custom formats, usually in the frame compatible "half" version, such as TI's checkerboard for DLPs, or RealD's line interleaved format for specially prepared LCD TVs.


HDMI provides for two signalling features around the supported formats:

- EDID extensions, so that the TV can list the 3D formats it supports on the input

- InfoFrames in the HDMI signal blanking area, so that the player can tell the TV which 3D format is being sent.


HDMI also makes two of three formats mandatory for displays:

- Frame packing for progressive formats, 1080p24, for all displays

- Frame packing for progessive formats, 720p50, for all displays supporting 50 Hz modes

- Frame packing for progessive formats, 720p60, for all displays supporting 60 Hz modes


A player only needs to support one of the three to be "HDMI 1.4 3D ready".


Of course, if the TV supports one of the optional frame compatible formats, such as "half" side-by-side, and this also happens to be the source format (for e.g. a cable or sat box), then the player does not need to reformat the video signal and can pass it right through, with the addition of the respective InfoFrame. This would allow 3D support with existing hardware and only a firmware update, as long as the HDMI transmitter chip in the set top box supports the additional InfoFrame.


The keyword here is "optional" for the side-by-side(half) 3D format in the TV. We don't know, yet, which 3D TVs will support what formats, HDMI 1.4 or otherwise. So, it might be that your DirecTV box works with Sony 3D TVs, but not with Samsung (just an example).


The only way 3D support can currently be ensured by the consumer, is by the HDMI 3D label, which mandates support for frame packing in the player and the display. For this, a sat box would have to reformat the incoming side-by-side(half) format to frame packing on the HDMI output, which will most likely require new set top box hardware. The Sony Playstation, on the other hand, seems to have enough hardware ressources to do frame packing with the existing hardware.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Great writeup, scarabeus. Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus /forum/post/18237458


This is wrong. The Storage format (e.g on the BD) has no relevance for the output format (e.g. on HDMI).

I was wondering about that. Thanks for clearing it up.
Quote:
The BD 3D format provides two 1080p24 streams to the player. The player can then reformat these two images into any "full" or "half" 3D formats that are supported by the display device.

This gets back to my original post: what controls will the source offer the user to reselect the output format? I think we still have to wait & see.
Quote:
The Sony Playstation, on the other hand, seems to have enough hardware ressources to do frame packing with the existing hardware.

Well some quick math suggests the "mandatory" 1080p24 and 720p50/60 formats wouldn't tax PS3 hardware more than 1080p60 2D video would. I don't know what all is required for HDMI 1.4 compliance, but maybe the PS3 could add some 1.4 features, even if it can't get an official certificate.
 
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