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SPDFI vs Analog vs HDMI1.1 vs HDMI1.3

4317 Views 19 Replies 14 Participants Last post by namechamps, Apr 16, 2008

namechamps

Discussion Starter · May 13, 2007

Found some great diagrams on DTS website that show the 4 methods to output the new codecs. While these diagrams are for DTS-HD they also apply to DD+ and TrueHD. Thought I would post them here since even a year after HD DVD launch there appears to be a lot of confusion on audio playback and connection methods.

SPDIF

Lowet quality but available for all receivers. Sound can be decoded to linear PCM and the encoded as highbitrate DTS @1.5mbps. This then can be output over spdif producing quality superior to DVD but lacking compared to other methods. Really should only be used on player/AVR combinaton that have neither analog connections or HDMI connections.

6 Channel Analog

Full resolution however most receivers will convert analog back to digital apply logic (room shaping, bass management, etc) then convert back to analog which results in some fidelity loss. Requires 6 channel analog out which is not available on all players and AVR. Better quality then spdif but not completely digital like HDMI solutions.

HDMI1.1

Advanced codec is decoded (using digital to digital process) to PCM 6 or 8 channel (uncompressed full resolution digital signal). The PCM is output over HDMI1.1 to any HDMI1.1 receiver. The receiver applies any preprocessing logic then convert to analog using receivers DAC and analog signal is passed on to amps & speakers.

Player must support decoding of advanced codec.

HDMI 1.3

Raw compressed bitstream is output from player to receiver. Receiver decodes to PCM, applies logic then converts to analog in DAC. Signal is amplified then output to speakers. Player must be HDMI1.3 and support output of bitstream. Not all media will support this option and audio can not be mixed (i.e player sounds, main track, commentary track) when bitstream is used. Receiver must support HDMI1.3 and decoding of advanced codecs. HDMI1.3 offers no Audio Quality over HDMI1.1.

Summary:

HDMI1.1 & 1.3 offer highest quality and convenience.

Analog out offers high quality from player but could be adversely affected by the extra 2 A/D & D/A conversions.

SPDIF should only be used if no other options is available.

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1 - 20 of 20 Posts

WayneL

· #2 · May 13, 2007

Thanks nc can you give us a link?

namechamps

Discussion Starter · #3 · May 13, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneL /forum/post/0

Thanks nc can you give us a link?

Sure. http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/how-does-it-work.php

thehun

· #4 · May 14, 2007

HDMI 1.3 is useless with the current protocol on HD DVD, and BR 1.1 might renders it useless as well. It's all up to the studios once more.

FoolintheRain

· #5 · May 14, 2007

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think some of the info here is incorrect:

1) Analog-outs model to receiver. In most cases, receivers that receive decoded PCM info via analog ins DO NOT APPLY ANY LOGIC and simply amplify the incoming signals.

2) HDMI 1.1. If the HD DVD/BR player already decodes the audio and converts it to PCM to deliver to the receiver, its already decoded. There is NO NEED for the receiver to have the decoding capabilities...its already done. The receiver can apply logic to the PCM, but the receiver does NOT have to have the audio decoder at all. (this can be done using any HDMI spec above 1.1 as well)

namechamps

Discussion Starter · #6 · May 14, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolintheRain /forum/post/0

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think some of the info here is incorrect:

1) Analog-outs model to receiver. In most cases, receivers that receive decoded PCM info via analog ins DO NOT APPLY ANY LOGIC and simply amplify the incoming signals.

Some receiver's can apply logic by converting the analog back to digital but as expressed above this can result in some fidelty loss. If you receiver doesn't apply any logic then you lose the ability for bass management, room shaping, etc. While some players offer basic features I haven't seen a player that can match a good AVR. So either way it is a compromise full logic capabilities but requiring a D/A to A/D step or no logic processing is possible.

AVR don't recieve deocded PCM over analog in. They receive analog. Compressed codec (DD+, DTS-MA, TrueHD etc) is decoded to PCM which is then converted to analog by a DAC.

Quote:
2) HDMI 1.1. If the HD DVD/BR player already decodes the audio and converts it to PCM to deliver to the receiver, its already decoded. There is NO NEED for the receiver to have the decoding capabilities...its already done. The receiver can apply logic to the PCM, but the receiver does NOT have to have the audio decoder at all. (this can be done using any HDMI spec above 1.1 as well)

I never said that any decoding is done by receiver in HDMI1.1. The receiver takes the decoded PCM and converts it is analog. Not sure what you read but I read my post again to make sure. It seems pretty clear to me.

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B Leisle

· #7 · May 14, 2007

Thanks for the links, just a couple observations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps /forum/post/0

While some players offer basic features I haven't seen a player that can match a good AVR.

There aren't any 1.3 receivers on the market yet, what are you basing this on? Or are you generalizing that a player cannot do as good a job of processing as a good receiver? Either way, it's pretty much speculation at this point without any 1.3 receivers available.

I know it's been asked and purportedly answered, but when a DTS-HD MA capable player is mated to a DTS-HD MA receiver, which component does what and does the end-user have any control over it? Same with TrueHD decoding. At this point in time, there's no hardware available to answer that, only second-hand info and white papers such as the DTS link offered.

Jack Gilvey

· #8 · May 14, 2007

Yeah, great links which I've pointed people to a few times...makes stuff pretty clear. Pictures always help.

umr

· #9 · May 14, 2007

I would add that analog bass management is frequently wrong in multichannel analog players.

The difference between a well implemented SPDIF or Toslink interface is much smaller than an error in bass management or loss of surround information that can occur in products with problems. I would stick with SPDIF or Toslink until you have a solution that implements bass management properly with the lossless audio format.

namechamps

Discussion Starter · #10 · May 14, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by B Leisle /forum/post/0

There aren't any 1.3 receivers on the market yet, what are you basing this on? Or are you generalizing that a player cannot do as good a job of processing as a good receiver? Either way, it's pretty much speculation at this point without any 1.3 receivers available.

I agree with you 100% but I think you misunderstood me. 1.1 vs 1.3 = exact same quality. All logic (bass manag, room shaping, imaging) is all done on the AVR. There is no advantage in my mind for 1.3 AVR vs player decoding and a 1.1 AVR.

I was pointing out that when using ANALOG. You have two options and neither are good.

1) Use player bass management and other logic which generally is rather limited compared to any good AVR.

2) Use receiver logic controls but that requires running the analog back through A/D converter apply logic then run through another DAC. A total of 3 conversion will occur.

For those reasons HDMI all digital connection would be perfered over analog connection. Personally I see no reason for HDMI 1.3 over HDMI 1.1 however eventually likely all receivers even entry level receivers will be HDMI 1.3.

Quote:
I know it's been asked and purportedly answered, but when a DTS-HD MA capable player is mated to a DTS-HD MA receiver, which component does what and does the end-user have any control over it? Same with TrueHD decoding. At this point in time, there's no hardware available to answer that, only second-hand info and white papers such as the DTS link offered.

If the player and media supports bitstream output then the compressed output will be sent ot receiver for decoding.

If the player doesn not support bitstream output then the player will decode the compressed format and output uncompressed digital PCM to receiver.

Assuming the player is HDMI 1.3 and supports bitstream ouput (and media supports it also) the player should have an option PCM or bitstream for output. Using PCM will use the 1.1 method, bitstream will use 1.3 method.

In BOTH cases the AVRs logic (bass management and other features) will be used. The user will control all logic options from the AVR. There will be no Audio Quality differences between the 2 methods so I honestly think 1.3 receivers are a solution looking for a problem.

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mr b real

· #11 · Apr 16, 2008

what is the difference between hdmi 1.1 and 1.3 please someone exp if u dont mind.

sound dropouts

· #12 · Apr 16, 2008

Quote:
what is the difference between hdmi 1.1 and 1.3 please someone exp if u dont mind.

1.1 can carry 6 channels of linear pcm. The player decodes it and sends it out. HDMI 1.1 is similar to 6 analog wires, but is digital, and is thus usually higher quality. 1.3 can carry the compressed sound to the receiver for decoding.

IN theory, 1.1 and 1.3 sound the same, since it uses the same dac, and the decoding should be the same on both the player and the receiver.

amirm

· #13 · Apr 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by B Leisle /forum/post/10532444

There aren't any 1.3 receivers on the market yet, what are you basing this on?

Of course there is. Onkyo X05 series is one such example: http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...s=Receiver&p=f

sound dropouts

· #14 · Apr 16, 2008

Quote:
Of course there is. Onkyo X05 series is one such example:

The post is a year old.

amirm

· #15 · Apr 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by sound dropouts /forum/post/13654698

The post is a year old.

Now you tell me

.

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JOHNnDENVER

· #16 · Apr 16, 2008

1.3 is not useless on HDM. It allows lossless audio to be sent undecoded to the AVR or Processor.

allargon

· #17 · Apr 16, 2008

It's still questionable at best.

Quote:
Not all media will support this option and audio can not be mixed (i.e player sounds, main track, commentary track) when bitstream is used. Receiver must support HDMI1.3 and decoding of advanced codecs. HDMI1.3 offers no Audio Quality over HDMI1.1.

We've already seen this issue with the Panny BD-30. No lossless audio on PiP tracks. There are a gazillion player vs. receiver decoding threads in this forum. I won't start another one.

h0mi

· #18 · Apr 16, 2008

Dumb question... is there a difference between SPDIF optical and the coax?

If my player has optical out but the receiver has coax in (or vice versa), am I stuck or can I find some converter/adapter for this?

William

· #19 · Apr 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by h0mi /forum/post/13655513

Dumb question... is there a difference between SPDIF optical and the coax?

If my player has optical out but the receiver has coax in (or vice versa), am I stuck or can I find some converter/adapter for this?

Same S/PDIF signal for both and here is an adaptor .

namechamps

Discussion Starter · #20 · Apr 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by allargon /forum/post/13655220

It's still questionable at best.

Not all media will support this option and audio can not be mixed (i.e player sounds, main track, commentary track) when bitstream is used. Receiver must support HDMI1.3 and decoding of advanced codecs. HDMI1.3 offers no Audio Quality over HDMI1.1.

We've already seen this issue with the Panny BD-30. No lossless audio on PiP tracks. There are a gazillion player vs. receiver decoding threads in this forum. I won't start another one.

1) There has not been one disc ever for either format that doesn't allow bitstream.

2) DMP-BD30 can bitstream lossless OR it can decode 2nd audio. It just can't do both at same time.

Those that think

lossless + low bitrate 2nd audio stream + meta data altering mix favoring low bitrate commentary is vastly superior to

DD or DTS + low bitrate 2nd audio stream + meta data altering mix are fooling themselves.

When I want highest possible audio quality I bitstream. If (and rarely) I am interested in commentary I use decode + secondary audio. I have never said to myself this commentary would sound better with a lossless (instead of DD/DTS) movie playing in the background.

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