[arvinder99]

I want to start off by saying that this is a great forum and tons of very useful information. A big thankyou to all of you who take time out to share your knowledge and expertise. I didn't want to post my request until I had read some of the earlier posts and I must say that I have learnt a lot over the last 2 weeks going through the forum.


I am trying to figure out the correct setup for a HT system for my family room and the correct equipment to buy. Here is my situation and I am positng some pictures to highlight some of the issues I am facing.


The family room is rather large. I wired it for 7.1 before moving in, just because it was a lot easier to run the wiring and patch and paint over the hole in the walls and ceiling. Didn't know much about speaker placement for 7.1 and I don't think i got the placement of speakers just right.


Ceiling height: 9'

Family (HT) Room dimensions: 19' L x 15' W (2565 cu ft) and has no wall on right and is open to a dining/kitchen area which adds to the volume

kitchen: 17' L x 11' W ( 1683 cu ft)

dining : 10' L x 15' W ( 1350 cu ft)

total volume: 5598 cu ft


Distance from TV: 14'

Issues: (that I noticed based upon everything I read in this forum and some common sense

. You can probably point out more )


> back wall has big windows and blinds

> no wall on right. (little or no reflected sound from right)

> couch is againt the back wall so can't mount surround speakers at back plus no place to mount on back wall due to windows

> location for ceiling speaker is 8 ft from back wall (probably should made the holes closer to back wall. didn't know any better)

> Left surround speaker position is farther away because the TV is off center to the right

> flooring is travertine with carpet covering the area near the sitting position

Type of Use: 70% movies and 30% music

Budget: $3000 - 4000 (for all speakers and subwoofer, not including the receiver). Since the wiring is done. I think I can hook everything up myself. I am looking forward to that part.

Timeline: No urgency but would like to complete the project in 3-4 weels

Existing equipment that I plan to use

TV: Samsung 46'

BD player: Samsung

Toshiba: Hard disk based DVD recorder/player

I am considering the following equipment for the HT setup

Receiver: Denon 3313 CI (waiting for it come out).

front speaker: not sure ( listened to B&W CM5 bookshelf speakers at Bestbuy recommends and liked them)

Center Channel: not sure

in ceiling surround: not sure

side surround speaker: Pair of mirage omnipole (seems to be the recommendation in this forum).

subwoofer: not sure

Speaker Color preference:

Black for Front and While for in Ceiling and black for side surrounds

Questions:

1. Should I buy bookshelf speakers for front speaker or wall mount speakers. It's probably better to go with bookshelf speakers so they are lower than the wall mounted ones.

2. For wall mount front speakers they would have to be small considering the small size of mounting area

3. for Bookshelf speakers, the max separation between L and R is 8 feet is that a problem

4. for Center speaker, ideally it should be at a lower level but there is no suitable place for it. How big an issue is it to have center speaker on the shelf above the TV. Does it make sense to put the center speaker to the right of the TV.

5. Left and Right surr speakers at 5 ft high, is that an ok height

6. in ceiling speaker are 8 ft from back wall. Do I need to move it closer. How big an issue is this?

7. i plan to put the subwoofer in the cabinet under the TV. it should hold a woofer smaller that 14 in x 21 in. The door of the cabinet has a black cloth front so that should be ok. are their any issues with putting the subwoofer inside the cabinet.

8. Denon 3313CI specs look good. should I be considering any other receiver. HDMI passthrough is important so I can watch TV without having the receiver ON. I like the 3 HDMI outputs so I run an HDMI cable to a TV on the other side of the wall.

9. do i even need 7.1. Maybe 5.1 is OK for my setup. If I stay with 5.1 setup I can use the 2 extra channel to drive the whole house audio.

 

[SteveR1952]

You have my sympaties for your room. I used to have one similar to that and it was a bear to get decent sound from it due to all the items you mentioned in your posting.


Speakers are very individualistic so any comments anyone has is relative to their taste in sound coloration (all speakers have some form of it). Listen to what you can in your area and see what you like. There are no magic speakers that will fix your room issues but room processors in a pre/AVR will help a lot. Find the speaker that sounds best to you and go with them as a set to keep the timber matched. Mixing speaker brands leads to odd sound sweeps in movies or multichannel music. Don't overlook NHT, Paradigm, and the various intertnet only distrbutors (you can usually try them and send them back if you don't like the sound...with the corresponding hassel of packing and shipping).


I am also currently shopping for new speakers for a yet to be completed home theater and have been reading a ton about the various brands. It is not an easy decision with all the choices out there. If you have places to go and listen (my options are quite limited) then do so but with a grain or salt or two since the environment in a store is not your home nor is the amp the same so there will be some differences once you put whatever you buy in your home.


I wish there was an easier way but there just isn't...you have to find the sound you like and then go with it.



Good luck in your search.

 

[Robert Cook]

This is going to be rough...hang on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


> back wall has big windows and blinds

Not a problem, I think. Having your back up against a wall or barrier is generally less than ideal, but it can work alright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


> no wall on right. (little or no reflected sound from right)

There's not much you can do about that, aside from whatever the room correction system can do with it. If the asymmetry still bugs you after you have everything set up, then perhaps some acoustic treatment on the left wall would help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


> couch is againt the back wall so can't mount surround speakers at back plus no place to mount on back wall due to windows

Mounting them on the side walls is fine in your case, and is generally where the surrounds belong anyway because they're side surrounds. There is even room between the windows to mount the back surrounds for a 7.1 system, but the back wall is way too close for that to work properly, of course. On the bright side, I've found that even a close back wall can contribute reflections that help wrap the surround sound field somewhat around you as opposed to being just at the sides and your position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


> location for ceiling speaker is 8 ft from back wall (probably should made the holes closer to back wall. didn't know any better)

If these are the back surrounds, then forget about it--they wouldn't work well in general with your room layout even if you moved them farther back, and they certainly wouldn't have the right effect at the current positions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


> Left surround speaker position is farther away because the TV is off center to the right

No problem, your AVR should compensate for this (automatically or by you manually setting the distances and relative levels).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


> flooring is travertine with carpet covering the area near the sitting position

The rug should help, and I think you should consider putting in some drapery on the back windows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


side surround speaker: Pair of mirage omnipole (seems to be the recommendation in this forum).

I see no reason to throw sound into the corners where they're located (already less than ideal)--just use regular speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959

Questions:

1. Should I buy bookshelf speakers for front speaker or wall mount speakers. It's probably better to go with bookshelf speakers so they are lower than the wall mounted ones.

I'm trying to approach this as though it were my HT room, but it is difficult because the first thing I'd do is rip out that entertainment center cabinetry thingy.

Barring that, I would go with bookshelf speakers in the cabinets, and hope that the effects of the cabinets (reflections and resonances) aren't too bad. Then I would try to find good positions for them on the horizontal axis, as I do not consider having the TV way off-center from the front soundstage acceptable. I would probably place the center speaker in the cabinet immediately above the TV (as far forward as possible, toward the viewers), mount the left speaker on the wall at the same height somewhere on the other side of the opening to the left of the TV (wherever you can find a stud or it looks the least intrusive), and then place the right speaker in the upper-right cabinet (as far forward as possible) at the same distance from the center as the left speaker--this would give you a nicely centered soundstage with respect to the TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


3. for Bookshelf speakers, the max separation between L and R is 8 feet is that a problem

For home theater, perhaps not, but I think it could be more than that if you do it my way (measure and find out). I wouldn't worry too much about it, though--I've set up systems in which the left & right speakers aren't separated by much more than the width of the TV, and it seems to work OK. It may not be ideal for music, but it still works, and actually may be preferable for movies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


4. for Center speaker, ideally it should be at a lower level but there is no suitable place for it. How big an issue is it to have center speaker on the shelf above the TV.

It's not a big deal, and actually I prefer somewhat high placement over somewhat low placement, given only these two options. In addition, I actually prefer to have all of the speakers at the same height because for me, at least, it makes the front soundstage more "cohesive" (otherwise the speakers would draw more attention to themselves on some material, particularly the center). This is why I recommended placing/mounting them all at the same height earlier. You may want to orient the speakers so that their tweeters are closer to ear level (flip them if the tweeter is normally mounted above the midwoofer) and/or slightly tilt them toward ear level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


Does it make sense to put the center speaker to the right of the TV.

I suppose that if your left & right speakers are spaced widely, then relatively speaking the center speaker would be close to the intended position, so maybe it could work in some cases, but being just above or below the screen works better, in my opinion--in my experience, it's pretty easy to forget that it is vertically (and not horizontally) offset when you're watching a movie, especially when the left & right speakers are similarly offset (by being at the same height).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


5. Left and Right surr speakers at 5 ft high, is that an ok height

Yes, although I'd move them a little bit higher myself, like maybe to the same height as the front speakers (if you choose to mount the latter as I recommended).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


6. in ceiling speaker are 8 ft from back wall. Do I need to move it closer. How big an issue is this?

It's a big issue--back surrounds should be behind the viewers, not in front of and over them.

There must be some distance, at least several feet in my opinion, between the viewers and the back surrounds, otherwise just forget about them. I only have a 5.1 system because my back is against a wall (literally), too, and it suits me fine. I'd add back surrounds if I could, but it is better to not have them than to use them improperly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22125959


7. i plan to put the subwoofer in the cabinet under the TV. it should hold a woofer smaller that 14 in x 21 in. The door of the cabinet has a black cloth front so that should be ok. are their any issues with putting the subwoofer inside the cabinet.

Yes there are issues, as one generally needs some freedom to find the best placement for a subwoofer, which is highly room-dependent and very difficult to predict with any reliability (must be found via experimentation). Additionally, it limits your selection of subwoofers, and an open-floorplan room of this volume requires a fairly powerful (which usually means large) subwoofer.


Now it'd be nice to get some feedback from you regarding what I've said (i.e. what you would be willing to do, etc.), so that we can come up with some equipment options. There are many options for bookshelf speakers, especially with your fairly generous budget. Just as an example, I feel the most comfortable recommending Ascend Acoustics (an Internet-direct manufacturer) speakers because I've installed several systems based on their speakers, and currently use them in my own home theater--everybody else has their own favorites, I'm sure.

Unless you like to listen to movies really loudly, the Sierra-1 should work for you. It is an excellent speaker--extremely detailed and revealing (especially with the NrT upgrade) but non-fatiguing. There is an optional Q-Plug kit that is designed to help with their placement in the cabinets and on the wall. Three of these at the front (with the NrT upgrade and Q-Plug kits for all of them) plus two HTM-200 SE s for the side surrounds comes out to $2027. The Pinpoint AM-40 can be used to mount the Sierra-1 on the wall, should you choose to, while the OmniMount 20.0

will work for the HTM-200 SE.


As for the subwoofer, let us know what you'd be willing to compromise on regarding placement. If it really has to go in the cabinet below the TV, then could you fit the SVS SB12-NSD , for example? Frankly, I don't know whether this would be enough--it's a good subwoofer, but it is still small and sealed, which limits its output. For reference, the PB12-NSD , which has the same driver, should be just enough, but it is larger and ported. Could you possibly accommodate two SB12-NSDs? That should do, I think.

 

[shadyJ]

I think Robert Cook has given you some excellent advice. I will just add a few alternative suggestions.


I hate to say it, but you are screwed as far as subwoofers go. You would only be able to fit a very small sub in there, and you are going to need the depth measurements too. You don't want to make it too tight a fit as the sub's amp is going to need a little bit of area to vent heat. The good news is since your seating is against the wall, you may still get to hear some output in that location- bass tends to sound much louder near room boundaries then around the middle. A couple subs you might consider are the Hsu STF1 , the Emotiva X-Ref 10, and the Energy S10.3 . Also this Aperion sub. If the sub ends up rattling things in the cabinet, you ought to place some kind of polyurethane foam sheet under the sub, that soft foam stuff sometimes called "memory foam". Or you could use something like this Auralex subdude . That might help, but it also might not be enough. At the end, your bass might not be the best, but you might at least be able to get some bass sound.


If you do want good bass, one thing you might consider is placing a larger sub next to your sofa, between it and that brown reclining seat. It could double as an end table. Some subs that work great in this function are the Hsu VTF2 and VTF3 , and Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus and EX . If you can spend a bit more, check out the Rythmik D15se or the Hsu ULS-15 . Placement there will give you far far superior sound than trying to fit a small sub into a cabinet, which might not be a good idea anyway due to, as I said before, direct vibration contact and ventilation issues.


For the speakers, I would definitely place them in the cabinet over mounting them near the ceiling. A couple ideas: If you can't swing the sub-as-endtable idea, one thing you could do to beef up the bass is to get some bookshelf speakers with great bass output. I am thinking of the Soundfield Monitor 1 , which have passive tweeters and mid-woofer but an active 8" bass woofer built in each speaker. Another big advantage to this speaker for your situation is they have terrific off-axis performance. This will be very desirable because you are placing the speakers in a less than ideal acoustic scenario. For a center, you would simply use another Monitor 1. Since they are $1300 a pair, I am guessing three would cost maybe 2k shipped.


As far as surrounds go, I would definitely not go for 7.1, as Robert said. Your surround sound field is not going to sound great no matter what since you are sitting against a surface. I wouldn't go through the trouble of ceiling mounting some speakers in your situation. The Mirage speakers probably won't be awful, but, like Robert said, I would try to mount them as far from the listen positions as possible. If you end up getting great front stage speakers like the Monitors 1s, you might not even feel the need for surrounds. I would get the front stage first, then maybe try some surround speakers in a temporary setup before doing any serious installation, and ask yourself if they contribute enough to go through the trouble of mounting them. Leave the option open of returning them for a refund. The surround channels are just not that important.


Another thing you could try is controlled directivity speakers, as the cabinet is not going to adversely affect the sound as much as normal dome tweeter speakers. Ones that I have good experience with the the Hsu HB-1 s. There is also Klipsch's bookshelf speakers which function similarly. Those are worth looking into given your particular situation. Any of those would certainly be less expensive than the Monitor 1s.

 

[commsysman]

I suggest a set of four Dynaudio Excite X12 speakers for front and rear speakers, and the Dynaudio Excite X22 center speaker.


Those are some really excellent speakers that should fit the space requirements for around $3000 total.


For subwoofer, I recommend the NHT B12D subwoofer, which is only $700 and is excellent (I have had one for a year or so and love it).


There is a complete review with bench test results available on the Excite X12 on the Stereophile website.

 

[smasher50]

fwiw, put the entertainment center in another room,this will at least give you a way better starting point just a suggestion

 

[shadyJ]



Quote:
Originally Posted by smasher50  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing#post_22136975


fwiw, put the entertainment center in another room,this will at least give you a way better starting point just a suggestion

It looks like it's built in to his wall.

 

[arvinder99]

A big thank you to all who responded and for all the detail and various options. I am yet to to do my research and look into the various brands that were recommended but didn't want to wait before replying back. Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to extract the quoted text with the name of the responder so ended up cutting and pasting the quoted text manually.



If someone can answer my question on the Denon 3313CI at the end of this message, I really appreciate it.

Quote:
I'm trying to approach this as though it were my HT room, but it is difficult because the first thing I'd do is rip out that entertainment center cabinetry thingy.

Barring that, I would go with bookshelf speakers in the cabinets, and hope that the effects of the cabinets (reflections and resonances) aren't too bad. Then I would try to find good positions for them on the horizontal axis, as I do not consider having the TV way off-center from the front soundstage acceptable. I would probably place the center speaker in the cabinet immediately above the TV (as far forward as possible, toward the viewers), mount the left speaker on the wall at the same height somewhere on the other side of the opening to the left of the TV (wherever you can find a stud or it looks the least intrusive), and then place the right speaker in the upper-right cabinet (as far forward as possible) at the same distance from the center as the left speaker--this would give you a nicely centered soundstage with respect to the TV.

Believe me or not, i did consider ripping out the entertainment cabinet. The estimate to replace it was 8-10K. I would rather spend that money on audio equipment than on a better arranged cabinet.


I had not considered the idea of mounting the left speaker on the left of the opening. That is a good idea, although running the wire without serious drywall work is going to be an issue. I was trying to avoid having to do more drywall, patching and painting work. I will have to look at that more closely. This should provide the nicely centered soundstage with respect to the TV.


I was told that the bookshelf speakers in this range are usually heavy and are really meant to be on a shelf and mounting on a wall maybe a challenge. Sounds like Ascends are designed for a wall mounting application and come with a mounting kit. I need to look at the speaker dimensions more closely. Would prefer that the speaker is not too big if I am going to mount it. There's probably a tradeoff between sound quality and speaker cabinet size.

If the wiring ends up being a bigger issue, I may have not have an option but to put the speakers on the shelf although the TV won't be centered.

Quote:
Yes, although I'd move them a little bit higher myself, like maybe to the same height as the front speakers (if you choose to mount the latter as I recommended).

I like that and will try to do that.

Quote:
It's a big issue--back surrounds should be behind the viewers, not in front of and over them.

There must be some distance, at least several feet in my opinion, between the viewers and the back surrounds, otherwise just forget about them. I only have a 5.1 system because my back is against a wall (literally), too, and it suits me fine. I'd add back surrounds if I could, but it is better to not have them than to use them improperly.

I agree, I think in my situation 5.1 makes more sense and as shadyJ also pointed out 7.1 probably doesn't buy me much more.

Quote:
Yes there are issues, as one generally needs some freedom to find the best placement for a subwoofer, which is highly room-dependent and very difficult to predict with any reliability (must be found via experimentation). Additionally, it limits your selection of subwoofers, and an open-floorplan room of this volume requires a fairly powerful (which usually means large) subwoofer.

The subwoofer cabinet is 14'' W x 21' H x 24' D. I could go with two subwoofers, one on left and one on right if that makes more sense.


My main motivation for putting the subwoofer in the cabinet was to avoid running additional wiring. there is no carpet to hide the wire from front to the back wall and I would have to go up and over and even that is not that easy because of the windows on the back wall. Putting the subwoofer behind or on the side of the recliner is a great idea if I can figure out the wiring issue. The girders in the ceiling do go from front to back so it is little easier to run wiring front to back than from one side to the other. Wireless subwoofer?? Maybe now I am asking for too much.

Quote:
Now it'd be nice to get some feedback from you regarding what I've said (i.e. what you would be willing to do, etc.), so that we can come up with some equipment options.

The Sierra-1's look like a good option. You are recommending the same one for center channel also. On the ascend site, they have a center channel speaker also. i take sierra-1 outperforms the one that is sold as the center channel speaker.


I like the fact that these have manufacturer provided mounting brackets. My concerns would be the size if the speaker if they are too big. I am yet to do my homework to know how big these are.


I will take a closer look at the Klipsch, Soundfield and Dynaudio speakers also as suggested by shadyJ and commsysman.


Regarding subwoofer, there seem to be lot of options. Maybe it is best to get the front speaker first and then the subwoofer and surrounds.

Quote:
Denon 3313CI specs look good. should I be considering any other receiver. HDMI passthrough is important so I can watch TV without having the receiver ON. I like the 3 HDMI outputs so I run an HDMI cable to a TV on the other side of the wall.

Is this receiver still a good option or should be looking at some other model or brand. I would like to buy the receiver first so I have the option to try some speakers and return them if i am not quite happy with them. I believe this receiver is expected to come out this month. I was hoping to order it as soon as it was available on the DENON site.

 

[arvinder99]



Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing#post_22137680


It looks like it's built in to his wall.

Yes, it is built into the wall. I took the other suggestion to mean that I could look into putting the equipment in a different room. Unfortunately that is not an option in my case.

 

[Robert Cook]



Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


I had not considered the idea of mounting the left speaker on the left of the opening. That is a good idea, although running the wire without serious drywall work is going to be an issue. I was trying to avoid having to do more drywall, patching and painting work. I will have to look at that more closely. This should provide the nicely centered soundstage with respect to the TV.

Yeah, the wiring would be the hard part if it must be fully hidden, but this seems to be the only way to simultaneously achieve a properly aligned and adequately spread front soundstage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


I was told that the bookshelf speakers in this range are usually heavy and are really meant to be on a shelf and mounting on a wall maybe a challenge. Sounds like Ascends are designed for a wall mounting application and come with a mounting kit.

The Sierra-1 is designed for stand-mounting like virtually every other "bookshelf" speaker out there, but the Pinpoint AM-40 that I mentioned earlier can securely mount it on the wall. The Q-Plug kit is probably not strictly necessary, but it should help with any sonic issues that could arise from wall-mounting or placement inside a cabinet (rather than relying solely on room correction equalization). You can read about it here:

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=3781


The appropriate plug for your application would be the "A" plug, which was designed expressly for your purposes, and does make the Sierra-1 exceptionally well suited for wall-mounting, if that's what you meant. The HTM-200 SE, which I recommended for your surrounds, is also designed for wall-mounting, by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


I need to look at the speaker dimensions more closely. Would prefer that the speaker is not too big if I am going to mount it. There's probably a tradeoff between sound quality and speaker cabinet size.

The Sierra-1 is a normal-sized bookshelf speaker at 14.25" (H) x 7.5" (W) x 10.5" (D). It weighs 20 lbs, which is relatively heavy for its size (due in part to its bamboo enclosure), but the AM-40 could probably hold twice that weight, if not more, so it won't be an issue (the way the mount is designed is easy on walls, too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


If the wiring ends up being a bigger issue, I may have not have an option but to put the speakers on the shelf although the TV won't be centered.

In that case, I suppose that you could place the left & right speakers at the far sides of the two cabinets above the TV, and the center speaker on the right side of the cabinet directly above the TV (same cabinet as the left speaker). That's about all you can do, I'm afraid. The only alternative that could center the TV would be to place all of the speakers in the cabinet directly above (perhaps forgoing the center), but that would make for a rather narrow soundstage. Additionally, I suppose you could mount the left speaker on the side of the entertainment cabinet to slightly improve centering and soundstage width (might look funny, though).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


I agree, I think in my situation 5.1 makes more sense and as shadyJ also pointed out 7.1 probably doesn't buy me much more.

Truth be told, 5.1 is still how most soundtracks are mixed and intended to be heard, anyway. I'm a completist who prefers to have all the bases covered, so to speak, which is why I wish that I could have a 7.1 system, but I'm also kind of a purist who probably wouldn't use Pro Logic II to derive the back surround channels (unless the soundtrack is intended to have a back channel or two), so I wouldn't get much use out of back surrounds in any case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


The subwoofer cabinet is 14'' W x 21' H x 24' D. I could go with two subwoofers, one on left and one on right if that makes more sense.

Could you possibly SQUEEEEZE an SVS SB12-NSD into each of two cabinets? It's 14.2" wide, and I like it because it's pretty stout for its size. If not, then we'll find another one, such as the VTF-1 MK2 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


My main motivation for putting the subwoofer in the cabinet was to avoid running additional wiring. there is no carpet to hide the wire from front to the back wall and I would have to go up and over and even that is not that easy because of the windows on the back wall. Putting the subwoofer behind or on the side of the recliner is a great idea if I can figure out the wiring issue. The girders in the ceiling do go from front to back so it is little easier to run wiring front to back than from one side to the other. Wireless subwoofer?? Maybe now I am asking for too much.

You're hardly asking for too much: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/OAW3.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


The Sierra-1's look like a good option. You are recommending the same one for center channel also. On the ascend site, they have a center channel speaker also. i take sierra-1 outperforms the one that is sold as the center channel speaker.

Actually, every Ascend Acoustics speaker model can be purchased as a center, so I'm not exactly sure which speakers you're referring to here. There is a center version of the Sierra-1 , which is the same speaker as the monitor version, but on its side with its tweeter rotated and a different grille. I prefer to use a vertically-oriented bookshelf monitor for the center instead, whenever possible, because this way you'd get the best possible horizontal dispersion. If you can tolerate how that would look (I actually prefer this for aesthetic reasons, too, because the center looks just like the left & right speakers, although most people would disagree), then ask for a third Sierra-1 monitor to use as a center, otherwise just get the center version (which has superior horizontal dispersion than typical "MTM" center speakers, anyway).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


I like the fact that these have manufacturer provided mounting brackets.

No, you have to buy the mounts separately, and the AM-40 only comes in pairs, unfortunately. But it's a really great mount--I use it myself and live in California, and so far no earthquake has budged my wall-mounted speakers.

By the way, the HTM-200 SE surround speakers are smaller and lighter, so they can use the smaller, more discreet OmniMount 20.0 (Ascend sells these as a courtesy, but you can get them cheaper at Amazon.com). They have threaded inserts that are compatible with this mount's universal plate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


My concerns would be the size if the speaker if they are too big. I am yet to do my homework to know how big these are.

If you want relatively small speakers, then tell us how large a speaker you can tolerate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


Regarding subwoofer, there seem to be lot of options. Maybe it is best to get the front speaker first and then the subwoofer and surrounds.

Why not get them all at the same time? Your budget should be adequate. If you were spending $500 total including the receiver, then I may feel differently, but even then most things are possible these days....

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22139069


Is this receiver still a good option or should be looking at some other model or brand. I would like to buy the receiver first so I have the option to try some speakers and return them if i am not quite happy with them. I believe this receiver is expected to come out this month. I was hoping to order it as soon as it was available on the DENON site.

I like Denon receivers, and this is a good model. My only suggestion would be to look at last year's models to see if one would work for you and is available for a clearance price.

 

[shadyJ]

+1 on the Outlaw wireless subwoofer kit. By the way, you get a big discount on it if you buy one of their subs with it. Depending on how serious you are on getting good bass, here is a suggestion: go for the Soundfield Monitor 1s, and pair them with a larger ported sub with a wireless adapter. Since the Monitor 1s have active 8" subwoofers built in to them, they will have very good bass response, but they won't have the deepest bass. This means that you could cross-over the subwoofer deeper than the normal 80 hz for assistance in avoiding localization issues. This also means that since more amplifier energy is reserved for a narrower band of frequencies, you will get more output and less distortion for the bass overall. That would mean almost compromise free bass in a situation that would normally be heavily compromised.


I would recommend against a horizontal MTM center channel in your situation. Just use a regular bookshelf speaker for a center, same as the left and right. I would just place them all in the upper cabinet, with the center in the middle above the TV, and the left and right separate as far as possible. I personally wouldn't try to use a mount on the front stage speakers at all. Would it sound better to have the right speaker further out? Yes, but it wouldn't be a huge difference, and it would be aesthetically awkward in an otherwise nice room. There is only so much you can do for the soundstage in that situation- I would get speakers that can compensate for it rather then trying to twist the staging area to accommodating the speakers in an ungainly manner.


The chief reason why speakers sound better standing alone and not inside a cabinet is because of reflection: the sound waves bouncing off nearby surfaces means sub-optimal sound meant to disperse is reaching your ear. The way to fight against that is to get speakers with great off-axis response. This means the reflected sounds reaching your ears isn't nearly as bad. When you are deciding on the speakers to get, I would urge you to take a look at the off-axis response measurements, should they be available.


For the surround speakers, I would suggest just getting some satellite speakers instead of bookshelf speakers. They will stick out less and be easier to mount. I might suggest some Orbs , which are small and easy to mount, and don't have too shabby performance for satellites (+2.84/-2.04dB from 200Hz - 16kHz). Larger bookshelf speakers will be visually intrusive, and, since you are sitting against a room surface, you are not going to have a great surround sound field no matter what, so don't spend too much time or money worrying about the surround channels, and definitely don't let them become an eyesore in your room. Remember that surround channel sound is rarely tasked to do anything more than play ambient noises, and is a relatively unimportant part of a home theater sound system with respect to the front stage and bass.

 

[Robert Cook]



Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22140293


Depending on how serious you are on getting good bass, here is a suggestion: go for the Soundfield Monitor 1s, and pair them with a larger ported sub with a wireless adapter. Since the Monitor 1s have active 8" subwoofers built in to them, they will have very good bass response, but they won't have the deepest bass. This means that you could cross-over the subwoofer deeper than the normal 80 hz for assistance in avoiding localization issues.

Well, at least from what I've experienced the few times I've played around with speakers in cabinets, it is the bass response that suffers the most from such placement (assuming that the speakers are flush with the opening). This would be because bass has a far greater tendency to wrap all the way around the speakers and into the cabinet (and back out), of course. If anything, I'd want to limit the bass output of the satellites in such situations, and 80 Hz should be low enough to avoid localization for all practical purposes, which makes it a good point of compromise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22140293


This also means that since more amplifier energy is reserved for a narrower band of frequencies, you will get more output and less distortion for the bass overall. That would mean almost compromise free bass in a situation that would normally be heavily compromised.

While having more subwoofers obviously helps with both bass quantity and quality, it is generally better to place subwoofers where they work the best, rather than where the higher-frequency drivers happen to be. In this case, additional subwoofers with wireless links can be placed away from the cabinet, and if mid- and upper-bass impact is a priority, then one of them could be the HSU MBM-12 MK2 Mid-Bass Module, for example, which would take a big load off both the bookshelf speakers and the larger sub that is optimized for deeper frequencies. Another benefit of this setup is that you could have the same or probably better bass performance overall with smaller bookshelf speakers--larger speakers with small built-in active subwoofers are handy for when that is all you can accommodate, but are unnecessary in a system that is equipped with separate subwoofers placed optimally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22140293


I would recommend against a horizontal MTM center channel in your situation. Just use a regular bookshelf speaker for a center, same as the left and right.

We're definitely in agreement here, and for what it's worth, I really do think that in a situation such as this one, having three identical front speakers is actually more aesthetically pleasing. This is just my subjective opinion, but objectively you would get better measured performance from the center this way (and I for one can clearly hear the benefit when viewing off-axis).

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22140293


I would just place them all in the upper cabinet, with the center in the middle above the TV, and the left and right separate as far as possible. I personally wouldn't try to use a mount on the front stage speakers at all. Would it sound better to have the right speaker further out? Yes, but it wouldn't be a huge difference, and it would be aesthetically awkward in an otherwise nice room. There is only so much you can do for the soundstage in that situation- I would get speakers that can compensate for it rather then trying to twist the staging area to accommodating the speakers in an ungainly manner.

Yes, even with the narrow separation, the system could still function pretty well. Like most everything else, it is a compromise, and what I always do in situations like this is experiment with placement, using whatever equipment I have on hand and then the actual equipment I will be using once I get it. I have placement issues, too, and in my current system the acoustical centers of my left & right speakers are only separated by 62 inches (just over 5 feet). This is not much at all and below what most people (which includes me) would recommend, but I found that it works remarkably well with my speakers (Ascend CBM-170 SE), even for listening to music. I'll usually grab a chair in order to sit closer when listening to music, which increases the angular separation between the speakers, but surprisingly the difference in enjoyment is not huge--the soundstage is certainly not as wide back at my sofa, but I still get similar imaging and music still sounds as "big" in other respects as it wants to be. For home theater, it's fine and matches well with the screen. Your case would be worse with the speaker placement being considered at the moment, which would have less than 4 feet of separation between the left & right speakers, but you may want to try it first to find out for sure how well it works for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22140293


The chief reason why speakers sound better standing alone and not inside a cabinet is because of reflection: the sound waves bouncing off nearby surfaces means sub-optimal sound meant to disperse is reaching your ear. The way to fight against that is to get speakers with great off-axis response. This means the reflected sounds reaching your ears isn't nearly as bad. When you are deciding on the speakers to get, I would urge you to take a look at the off-axis response measurements, should they be available.

This is also why I emphasize placing the speakers at least flush with the cabinet opening (if not even a bit more toward the viewers), which helps avoid reflections in the higher frequencies. Bass frequencies, however, tend to disperse in every direction, which is why I'd recommend keeping as much bass as you can out of the bookshelf speakers in this situation. 80 Hz seems about right, all things considered, although it wouldn't hurt to at least experiment with 90 Hz or even 100 Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22140293


For the surround speakers, I would suggest just getting some satellite speakers instead of bookshelf speakers. They will stick out less and be easier to mount. I might suggest some Orbs , which are small and easy to mount, and don't have too shabby performance for satellites (+2.84/-2.04dB from 200Hz - 16kHz). Larger bookshelf speakers will be visually intrusive, and, since you are sitting against a room surface, you are not going to have a great surround sound field no matter what, so don't spend too much time or money worrying about the surround channels, and definitely don't let them become an eyesore in your room. Remember that surround channel sound is rarely tasked to do anything more than play ambient noises, and is a relatively unimportant part of a home theater sound system with respect to the front stage and bass.

I'd have to somewhat disagree here. While bass impact and the quality of the front soundstage are indeed more important, relatively speaking, these days many movie soundtracks have multichannel musical scores that use the surrounds quite a good deal, and while surround effects that take advantage of more capable surrounds are occasional, they can make a noticeable impact overall, in my opinion. I'd skimp on the surrounds if I had to, but I'd still prefer to have highly capable surrounds if possible, and I've even noticed some benefit from having surrounds that are timbre-matched with the front speakers (some soundtracks actually image between the fronts and surrounds at times, and in such instances the whole soundstage is more coherent and transparent). The surround speakers that I recommended earlier are a good match for the front speakers that I recommended, and are quite capable (you could probably even satisfactorily use them as front speakers in your system), but are still fairly compact at only 11" x 6.5" x 6.375", and shouldn't look too imposing in a decent-sized room.

 

[zieglj01]

I think that I would be tempted to modify that cabinet - and cut out the shelves and middle

vertical wall, from the TV area and up >> and then start over.

 

[Robert Cook]



Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing/0_100#post_22144597


I think that I would be tempted to modify that cabinet - and cut out the shelves and middle

vertical wall, from the TV area and up >> and then start over.

I'd endorse this approach.

 

[arvinder99]



Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing#post_22144597


I think that I would be tempted to modify that cabinet - and cut out the shelves and middle

vertical wall, from the TV area and up >> and then start over.

I did consider that option also. Concerns about how the end result would turn out held me back. A good carpenter, if I am lucky enough to find one, could make this work. Certainly opens up the possibility of putting a bigger tv which I couldn't do earlier. I am going to look into this option closely.


Does this mean the speaker choices have to be looked at, all over again. Argh, I thought I was close to deciding on the speakers. There will certainly be room for taller L and R speakers in the modified cabinet and they can be placed lower which probably is preferable. The center would probably still have to be higher than the tv or under the tv somehow. If the tv ends up being bigger, the center being under the tv makes sense.

 

[zieglj01]



Quote:
Originally Posted by arvinder99  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing#post_22145539


I did consider that option also. Concerns about how the end result would turn out held me back. A good carpenter, if I am lucky enough to find one, could make this work. Certainly opens up the possibility of putting a bigger tv which I couldn't do earlier. I am going to look into this option closely.

Does this mean the speaker choices have to be looked at, all over again. Argh, I thought I was close to deciding on the speakers. There will certainly be room for taller L and R speakers in the modified cabinet and they can be placed lower which probably is preferable. The center would probably still have to be higher than the tv or under the tv somehow. If the tv ends up being bigger, the center being under the tv makes sense.

The main thing is you can get a bigger TV, and center it with the center channel > for better

viewing, and have a center channel that is not off to the side. Whatever space is left to work

with, will help in your final decision for speakers. Good Luck!

 

[uncola]

I have a svsound sb12-nsd subwoofer and I can confirm it's 14" wide. I bought it to fit in a cabinet too and it's great

 

[wlhungdude]

OK.. my first decision... rip that carp out. Replacing it for 8 to 10 K ? HA HA HA . Drywall mud is cheap. Paint is 'relatively' cheap. Get a wall mount from Monoprice for, oh.. about $30, and you open up that entire front soundstage.


A nice low table underneath that TV.. not too wide... either floorstanding front speakers, or nice bookshelves with stands (what is your budget, if I can prevent you from giving someone else 8K for another 'built-in" that would also not fit your wants, good on me.... ) will be better than anything you could ' make fit' in what you have now...


Robert is giving you great info... all around.. so read it again. He knows of what he speaks.


and yes, the Pinpoint's will work...


...whew... Joseph

 

[smasher50]

fwiw, as i see it the entertainment center is not built into the wall but to it. i took mine out of my old house for pretty much same reason as you to fit larger tv. most of these enter. centers come apart into 2 parts the upper shelves and the lower cabinet. all you had to do to mine was to undo electical outlets and unscrew some screws located on the top and inside the lower cabinets and pulled away from the wall very easy. just repaired the damaged drywall a coat of paint and piece of base moulding and i had a new blank canvas to start with just my 2 cents

 

[arvinder99]

here's an Update. Sorry it took a while to make the decision and move forward. Reconfiguring the cabinet is not an option at the moment. I will have to work with what i have for now.



I decided to move forward with the recommendaiton for Sierra 1s. I bought 3 Sierra-1 for LCR and HTM-200 for side surrounds. Bought the Q-Plugs and omni 20 mounts for the surrounds as well


Ended up buying the Denon 3312 for the receiver and am planning to set this up as 5.1 system.


All I need now is a sub. Here is a question >>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook  /t/1415325/speaker-recommendation-need-help-choosing#post_22139422



Could you possibly SQUEEEEZE an SVS SB12-NSD into each of two cabinets? It's 14.2" wide, and I like it because it's pretty stout for its size. If not, then we'll find another one, such as the VTF-1 MK2 .

Robert, Yes, I can squeeze in a SVS SB12-NSD. i will have to remove the door to get it in there but then I can put the door back on.


Let's say that I am open to placing the sub in the room somewhere, outside the cabinet using the Outlaw wireless thingy, would you still recommned this subwoofer or is there a better one I should be considering before I place the order.


Thanks so much for all your help and guidance.