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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is it overkill to buy a speaker capable of lot of bass with a larger cone if it’s only used for vocals in a conference room?

Conference Room size L 48 W 21 H 9.5.


I’m trying to decide between Yamaha NSIC800WH vs NSIC600WH.
 

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Is it overkill to buy a speaker capable of lot of bass with a larger cone if it’s only used for vocals in a conference room?
It is, but neither of the examples you linked would be capable of a lot of bass in any event. For what you're doing you would be better off with more of the smaller model spaced closer together than fewer of the larger spaced further apart.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It is, but neither of the examples you linked would be capable of a lot of bass in any event. For what you're doing you would be better off with more of the smaller model spaced closer together than fewer of the larger spaced further apart.
So I should be better off going with NSIC600WH 6-1/2 size speakers spaced closer together than going with NSIC800WH 8 inch speakers?
 

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So I should be better off going with NSIC600WH 6-1/2 size speakers spaced closer together than going with NSIC800WH 8 inch speakers?
Yes. With a distributed system you get the best results when the speakers are closely spaced, to minimize the level differences throughout the room. That said, you'd be better off with a larger number of much less expensive speakers than the Yamahas. For instance:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=108&cp_id=10837&cs_id=1083702&p_id=4103&seq=1&format=2
You also need to set this up as a 70v system, using the appropriate transformers.
 

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Though I think we need a lot more details, I'm inclined to agree with others. More speakers spaced closer together. Though we don't know how many speakers you planned to use.

But, it depends on what you are trying to do. You specifically said this was a conference space, not office space. So, is this the PA system for large conferences? That is, several people in seats and one person in front making a presentation? How many people? What is the ambient noise level? What kind of presentation? Will there be any presentation aid - Video, Slides, computer interface, other?

Will people be presenting video presentations? Will this simply be the single voice of a single lecturer?

A 48ft x 21ft room, indicates this is more like a small auditorium.

The devil is always in the details
, the more details about precisely what will be going on in the room, but better we can advise.

If we limit it to the two drivers you suggested, either one will do the job. So, now the question becomes how many speakers, place where, and for what purpose?

Depending on the circumstances, a big PA in Front, might ....might... be better than a lot of speakers spread around.

Steve/bluewizard
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Though I think we need a lot more details, I'm inclined to agree with others. More speakers spaced closer together. Though we don't know how many speakers you planned to use.

But, it depends on what you are trying to do. You specifically said this was a conference space, not office space. So, is this the PA system for large conferences? That is, several people in seats and one person in front making a presentation? How many people? What is the ambient noise level? What kind of presentation? Will there be any presentation aid - Video, Slides, computer interface, other?

Will people be presenting video presentations? Will this simply be the single voice of a single lecturer?

A 48ft x 21ft room, indicates this is more like a small auditorium.

The devil is always in the details
, the more details about precisely what will be going on in the room, but better we can advise.

If we limit it to the two drivers you suggested, either one will do the job. So, now the question becomes how many speakers, place where, and for what purpose?

Depending on the circumstances, a big PA in Front, might ....might... be better than a lot of speakers spread around.

Steve/bluewizard
You are correct. It is more of an auditorium that will have about 50-80 people for a place of worship. Mostly it will be single voice of a single lecturer. Sound quality and evenness throughout the room are equally very important.
I purchased 22 Yamaha NSIC600WH speakers and 18 Yamaha NSIC800WH speakers while they were on sale. I also purchased a Dayton MA1240a amp which can handle 24 8-ohm speakers on its 12 channels.
With small 6 inch Yamaha speakers, I was planning to install 7 rows with 3 speakers on each column or I can go with 8 inch Yamaha speakers but will have fewer speakers (12 or all 18 speakers if needed).
I’m going to return model that I don’t install. Not sure which speaker size I should go with. I can install more speakers using 6 inch speakers or fewer speakers using 8 inch speakers using a square pattern layout.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes. With a distributed system you get the best results when the speakers are closely spaced, to minimize the level differences throughout the room. That said, you'd be better off with a larger number of much less expensive speakers than the Yamahas. For instance:

You also need to set this up as a 70v system, using the appropriate transformers.
Yahamas were on sale so I purchased 22 Yamaha NSIC600WH speakers and 18 Yamaha NSIC800WH speakers. I was trying to decide between the two
 

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I don't think you will have a problem with either speaker or with a combination of the two. The question now is, how are the speakers place and how are they spaced?

You have an amp with 6 Stereo Channels. But, you will feed it with a MONO microphone. I would suggest a small mixer to feed the microphone into. The mixer will allow you to assign the Mono Microphone to BOTH Stereo channels.

The room is about 48ft x 21ft. But what is the size of the Audience Space? By that I mean, you won't need speakers above the Stage or the speaker's area. So, that is about 10 feet where you don't need a speaker.

So, if the audience space is 38x21, then we need to determine how the seating will be laid out. Will there be an isle on each side, and perhaps on down the middle? You don't want the first set of speaker too close to the front of the room and the speaker's microphone. You want them out over the audience.

But again, the precise placement relative to the front of the room, will depend on the space set aside for the Lecturer, and the amount of room he is allowed to roam in. I've allowed 10ft, but that would probably mean the first row of speakers would be right at 10ft. If the speaker steps forward 10ft, he is going to be right under a pair of speakers, and will likely get feedback from the Microphone. A lot of factors come into play.

If we take the width of the room and divide it by 3 that is 7 feet. So starting with one wall, 7 feet out, place the first column of speakers, then at 14 feet out (or 7 ft from the opposite wall), place another column of speakers.

If we take 38 ft and divide it by 7, that us 5.4 feet between speakers in each column running from the front to the back.

With a 12 channel amp, you have up to 6 speakers on each side of the room. Six speakers in 38ft equal one speaker every 5.4 feet (7/38 = 5.4)**.

So, across the width of the room, you have speaker spread 7ft apart. Along the length of the room, you have one speaker every 5.4 feet for a total of 12 speakers.

You might have the smaller speakers in front, where people are close enough to actually hear the speaker's voice, and larger speaker's in back where most of what people are getting will come from the PA system.

Does this square with what you had in mind?

Note: ** Divide by 7 for 6 speakers because you will not put a speaker right at the back wall. So dividing the room in to 7 allows 6 speakers to be place within the room.

The first speakers at 10ft, then the next at 15ft, 20ft, 25ft, 30ft and 35ft. That is 6 speakers with the last speaker 3ft from the far back wall. If you shift everything forward 2ft, we can have 8ft in front, and the last speaker will be 5ft from the back wall.

Given that you have an amp with 6 Stereo Channels, I don't think you will need a 70v line system.

Lastly, since you have a stereo amp, unless the amp has a MONO button to send all content to all channels, you will want a small microphone mixer with balance controls, so you can send the Mono Mic input to both output channels. A mixer like this is not expensive.

Here is a basic 4-channel mixer -

http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-xenyx-802-mixer-8-input-2-bus--248-576

Here is a basic 2-channel mixer -

http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-xenyx-802-mixer-8-input-2-bus--248-576

Both well under $100. Both with Balance controls.

But there are a variety of things you still need to consider.

Steve/bluewizard
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Attached you will see a layout drawn with 10 speakers I had in mind before (5 rows, 2 columns). First row of speakers and chairs will start 7 feet from the wall. Then next row and column will be spaced 8.8 ft apart except the last row which will be 5.6ft. Speaker's podium will be fixed and located about 3-4 feet from the wall to the left. There want be a stage. There will be a small isle in the middle. Yamaha recommends these speakers placed 6-10 feet apart.

I’m leaning towards going with going with 6 inch speakers, which will allow me to install 21 speakers since I got the impression from you all small speakers installed closer together is better than large speakers placed further apart. I was thinking installing 7 rows, with 3 columns of speakers spaced equally apart divided by the length and width of the room. I will have to daisy chain 2 speakers to each channel of MA1240a.

I’m using mono mic with PreSonus StudioChannel Tube Mic Preamp and connecting the Pre-amp TRS balanced output to RCA connections of MA1240a Amp. Do I also need a mixer? Will it assign mono Microphone to BOTH Stereo channels?

What is the ideal distance from the speaker’s mic to the first row of the speakers? Speaker will have fixed podium and will not move. I worried about placing them too far apart as the speaker will not be able gauge loudness of the speakers as ceiling speakers are directional which will cause them speak louder than needed causing discomfort for long sessions.
 

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I can't quite make out the dimension, but you've configured in about right. Assuming some isles on each side, as it is now, that puts pretty much each person within 3 ft of a speaker. I can't imagine that not doing the job.

But remember what I said about the Front of the room. If the lecturer moves too close to the front row of speakers, he is likely to get feedback in the microphone/amp system. As long as he stays behind that line, there shouldn't be a problem.

Steve/bluewizard
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I can't quite make out the dimension, but you've configured in about right. Assuming some isles on each side, as it is now, that puts pretty much each person within 3 ft of a speaker. I can't imagine that not doing the job.

But remember what I said about the Front of the room. If the lecturer moves too close to the front row of speakers, he is likely to get feedback in the microphone/amp system. As long as he stays behind that line, there shouldn't be a problem.

Steve/bluewizard
You mean I should go with 21 speaker configuration instead of the 10 speaker configuration I had in mind before right? I think coverage of these speakers is between 6-10 feet radius. Should the speaker’s microphone be located within this radius or outside this radius?



I assume the configuration I described would not need another mixer right?



Thanks for your help.
 

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You mean I should go with 21 speaker configuration instead of the 10 speaker configuration I had in mind before right? I think coverage of these speakers is between 6-10 feet radius. Should the speaker’s microphone be located within this radius or outside this radius?

I assume the configuration I described would not need another mixer right?

Thanks for your help.
The configuration in the drawing looks like 12 speakers, 6 on each side. That seems fine. Again, I can't make out the dimension on the drawing but it looks like between 5 and 6 feet. That means no matter where you are sitting in the room, you are no more than 3 ft (horizontally) from a speaker. That should give you pretty good coverage.

Wait, I looked at the diagram again, you have FIVE Speakers on each side. That doesn't matter, based on by best guess of the dimension, it sill puts everyone within 3ft of a speaker no matter where they sit in the room.

I think you are on the right track now. It is just a matter of managing the wiring, and determining what support equipment you need.

Steve/bluewizard
 

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As to the Mixer, you have a Mono source, a microphone feeding a Stereo amp. Now, I'm not sure if that amp can be set to Mono, If it is only functional in Stereo, you need a way to get the Mono signal into both channels so you have sound on both sized of the room. A small mixer will allow you do do this. Using the Balance Control, you can determine if the Mono Input will be in the Left Channel, the Right Channel, or Both.

Steve/bluewizard
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The configuration in the drawing looks like 12 speakers, 6 on each side. That seems fine. Again, I can't make out the dimension on the drawing but it looks like between 5 and 6 feet. That means no matter where you are sitting in the room, you are no more than 3 ft (horizontally) from a speaker. That should give you pretty good coverage.

Wait, I looked at the diagram again, you have FIVE Speakers on each side. That doesn't matter, based on by best guess of the dimension, it sill puts everyone within 3ft of a speaker no matter where they sit in the room.

I think you are on the right track now. It is just a matter of managing the wiring, and determining what support equipment you need.

Steve/bluewizard

I was initially planning on going with FIVE 8 inch Speakers on each side for a total of 10 speakers. What I really want to know if it would be better if I go with 6 inch speakers and install 21 speakers. That way, I will have 7 rows of speakers, 3 on each column. Is this layout better than the 10 speaker layout? Only drawback I see is I will have to wire 2 speakers into each channel of the MA120a splitting its output (MA1240a can run on 4 ohm load) instead of having a dedicated channel for each speaker on 10 speaker layout. Speaker size will also be reduced to 6 inches from 8 but I will have 11 MORE speakers on this layout.I'm trying to decide between these two layouts and would like to know the pros and cons.




I have speakers already purchased for either of these patterns. Cost is about the same since I got NSIC600WH speakers at a steep discount $60 for pair. So price is not a factor in my decision. I will return the model that I don’t use.
 

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Unless I am mistaken, you have a 12 channel amp, for best results, one speaker per amp channel seems like the best choice. So ...up to... 12 speakers makes the most sense.

Currently in your diagram what is the width between Columns, and then the distance between Rows?

If we allow 3ft for a isle on each side, that makes the listening area about 38 x 15, which is 570 square feet. Divide that by 12 speakers and that is 1 speaker for every 47.5 SqFt. Or roughly 6.89 ft between each speaker. The farthest you can be from a speaker is halfway between two of them, which puts you, on the horizontal plane, 3.44ft from the nearest speaker.

As I suggested, in the first couple of row, you could put 6.5" speaker because people sitting there will get both the PA and the Lecturer's natural voice. Those farther back will not be able to hear his natural voice as well, and likely bigger speakers will server them better.

With two columns of 6 speakers each, for a total of 12 speakers, if we make the first two rows of two 6.5" speaker, and the remaining 4 rows of two 8" speakers.

When you determine where to space or place the speakers in the room, don't think of the room's overall dimensions, think of the listening area. There is little point in putting a speaker directly over the isle.

If my best guess is right and the listening area is 38ft x 15ft, the divide 15ft by three to determine the location of the two columns of speakers. That would mean two columns 5ft apart centered on the room.

These are details that you can work out on your own though.

But you can look at speakers in isolation, you have to consider the amp that they are working with. In this case, assuming you haven't changed, you have a 12 channel amp. That somewhat implies ideally 12 speaker, or less ideally 24 speakers.

So, using my dimensions, the speaker columns will be space about 5 feet apart, and SIX speaker row along the length of the room, will be spaced about 5.4 feet apart. Given this, not matter where you sit in the room, you will be within 3ft of a speaker on the horizontal plane. That puts everyone reasonable close to a speaker.

Again, you have to look at the complete system and how it interact with itself. Perhaps, the amps can be daisy-chained together, so that two 12 channel amps could act as one 24 channel amp. But if you have more speakers, consider the density.

You suggested 21 speakers, though an odd number is not going to work, It has to be 20 or 22, not 21.

I'm not even sure how to space 22 speakers. Probably 18 speakers in three columns of 6 rows. But if we allow for an isle on each side, that places the speakers in rows with 3ft spacing. Yes, you can do that, but 3 feet seems pretty close, and would probably require an additional amp.

You need even numbers of speakers, and you need to consider how many amp channels you have to drive the speakers. Given that you've chosen a 12 channel amp, which seems a good choice, logic says the best speaker combinations if 12 speaker evenly spaced over the Listening Area.

I think, you are a little too focused on the size of the bass drivers, when that is the least of your problems. I think either size or a combination of sizes will work just fine. Rather your real problems are finding the correct equipment or combination of equipment to drive the speakers.

Steve/bluewizard
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Unless I am mistaken, you have a 12 channel amp, for best results, one speaker per amp channel seems like the best choice. So ...up to... 12 speakers makes the most sense.

Currently in your diagram what is the width between Columns, and then the distance between Rows?

If we allow 3ft for a isle on each side, that makes the listening area about 38 x 15, which is 570 square feet. Divide that by 12 speakers and that is 1 speaker for every 47.5 SqFt. Or roughly 6.89 ft between each speaker. The farthest you can be from a speaker is halfway between two of them, which puts you, on the horizontal plane, 3.44ft from the nearest speaker.

As I suggested, in the first couple of row, you could put 6.5" speaker because people sitting there will get both the PA and the Lecturer's natural voice. Those farther back will not be able to hear his natural voice as well, and likely bigger speakers will server them better.

With two columns of 6 speakers each, for a total of 12 speakers, if we make the first two rows of two 6.5" speaker, and the remaining 4 rows of two 8" speakers.

When you determine where to space or place the speakers in the room, don't think of the room's overall dimensions, think of the listening area. There is little point in putting a speaker directly over the isle.

If my best guess is right and the listening area is 38ft x 15ft, the divide 15ft by three to determine the location of the two columns of speakers. That would mean two columns 5ft apart centered on the room.

These are details that you can work out on your own though.

But you can look at speakers in isolation, you have to consider the amp that they are working with. In this case, assuming you haven't changed, you have a 12 channel amp. That somewhat implies ideally 12 speaker, or less ideally 24 speakers.

So, using my dimensions, the speaker columns will be space about 5 feet apart, and SIX speaker row along the length of the room, will be spaced about 5.4 feet apart. Given this, not matter where you sit in the room, you will be within 3ft of a speaker on the horizontal plane. That puts everyone reasonable close to a speaker.

Again, you have to look at the complete system and how it interact with itself. Perhaps, the amps can be daisy-chained together, so that two 12 channel amps could act as one 24 channel amp. But if you have more speakers, consider the density.

You suggested 21 speakers, though an odd number is not going to work, It has to be 20 or 22, not 21.

I'm not even sure how to space 22 speakers. Probably 18 speakers in three columns of 6 rows. But if we allow for an isle on each side, that places the speakers in rows with 3ft spacing. Yes, you can do that, but 3 feet seems pretty close, and would probably require an additional amp.

You need even numbers of speakers, and you need to consider how many amp channels you have to drive the speakers. Given that you've chosen a 12 channel amp, which seems a good choice, logic says the best speaker combinations if 12 speaker evenly spaced over the Listening Area.

I think, you are a little too focused on the size of the bass drivers, when that is the least of your problems. I think either size or a combination of sizes will work just fine. Rather your real problems are finding the correct equipment or combination of equipment to drive the speakers.

Steve/bluewizard
There is a need to have at least 1 speaker in the adjoining hallway. That’s why I can’t install all 12. It want look nice if I install 11 speakers in a square pattern. I have to either go with 2 columns of speakers or 3.



So I can only go up to 10 speakers, in a 1 speaker per amp channel layout or can go with all 12 but will have to share 1 or 2 channels to power the speakers in the adjoining hallway. I was reluctant to do that fearing uneven sounds coming from main speakers in the hall. (10 speakers will get 40 watts and other 2 will get 30 watts).


There is not a big difference in price between 6 inch vs 8 inch Yamaha speakers. So I can go with all 8 inch speakers if that’s better. I heard NSIC800WH is superior in sound quality to NSIC600WH. I don’t know if that would make a much of a difference for speeches, vocals etc.



As a compromise, I can go with 18 8 inch speakers (3 speakers per column, 6 rows) sharing 9 channels in the amp that way all speakers will get 30 watts (60watts/2) instead of 40 watts when wired individually per channel under 8 ohm load. I want get uneven sound coming from speakers since all speakers will be sharing a channel in the amp.
MA1240a can drive up to 24 8ohm speakers. My main goal is to make sure max sound quality and evenness of sound throughout the hall.
 

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You can have UP TO 12 channels on the amp you have. So, 10 in the room, and 1 in the hallway would work reasonably well. Remember you don't need Rock Concert Sound levels, you merely need to re-enforce the speakers voice so everyone can hear him. The actually volume levels don't need to be that high. - 75db to 80db should do nicely. Just equal to or a bit more than face-to-face conversation.

I would suggest one speaker per amp for up to 12 speakers, unless you want to add a second amp. Though you can try two speaker per amp, but that will generate a lot of heat and risk overheating the amp. Though, with a lecture you won't be straining the amp that much.

You could have 11 in the room and one in the hall, you just have to decide where to put the one odd speaker. If you have two columns of 5 rows for 10, then between a matrix of any 4 speakers, you could put the odd additional speaker.

I would test a dry run of the speaker, with the speaker connected to the amp, but just sitting on chairs the the approximate position they will be place, then have some one simulate a lecture at the front of the room and move around and see how it sounds. Likely 10 or 11 speakers in room, will do just fine.

Steve/bluewizard
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
You can have UP TO 12 channels on the amp you have. So, 10 in the room, and 1 in the hallway would work reasonably well. Remember you don't need Rock Concert Sound levels, you merely need to re-enforce the speakers voice so everyone can hear him. The actually volume levels don't need to be that high. - 75db to 80db should do nicely. Just equal to or a bit more than face-to-face conversation.

I would suggest one speaker per amp for up to 12 speakers, unless you want to add a second amp. Though you can try two speaker per amp, but that will generate a lot of heat and risk overheating the amp. Though, with a lecture you won't be straining the amp that much.

You could have 11 in the room and one in the hall, you just have to decide where to put the one odd speaker. If you have two columns of 5 rows for 10, then between a matrix of any 4 speakers, you could put the odd additional speaker.

I would test a dry run of the speaker, with the speaker connected to the amp, but just sitting on chairs the the approximate position they will be place, then have some one simulate a lecture at the front of the room and move around and see how it sounds. Likely 10 or 11 speakers in room, will do just fine.

Steve/bluewizard
Thank you for your input. I think I now have a pretty good idea how to tackle this project taking into consideration everything you said. I think it’s very good idea to do a dry run of the speaker like you said so I can gauge how the speakers will respond before cutting the holes.
 
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