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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone!


I am purchasing speaker wire now so that I can install my system with the HT installers in 2 weeks! I have to run the mains, center, and subs with about 50-60 feet of speaker wire. The effects channels will be about a 40 foot and a 20 foot run or so.


I will also be pulling the speaker wires through conduit "smurf pipe" that makes about 45-60 degree turns occassionally but I do have pull wire in each right now.


Is a 12 guage wire the way to go? What about a 14 guage? Some folks have talked about higher flex on the 14 guage would be easier to pull.


Here are two links to things I am considering....could you look and see what you might think would be best. My system is below....


NAD T-163 Preamp

Anthem PVA-5 Amp

Integra DPS-6.5 DVD player

Vutec Vision XWF 110" Slilver Star/Velvet frame screen

InFocus SP 7210 Projector

Paradigm Studio 100 Main Speakers

Paradigm ADP-470 Rear Effect Speakers

Paradigm CC-570 Center Channel Speaker

Paradigm PW-2200 Subwoofer


One option for wire: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=100-764


Other option for wire: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=100-742



Thanks again for the help in advance....I would like to purchase this in the next day or so!


Regards,


Mike
 

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I don't imagine at that length the Paradigm ADP-470 really needs 12awg.

The price seems inconsequential. So if pulling cable through this would be easier with the 14 awg, well....
 

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12 gauge is not too thick to be a problem
 

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14 AWG with a CL3 rating (in wall) would work fine. You could use 12 AWG but I doubt you would notice the difference and the 14 AWG will be easier to pull.
 

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The deciding factors for wire gauge are speaker impedance, and length of the speaker wire run. The Paradigm ADP-470s are 8 ohm speakers, I believe. If so, the 14 gauge will work just fine. However, if you ever change surrounds, and they are 4 ohm speakers, according to this Wire Table , 40 ft. is about the longest run you should make with 14 gauge.


My point is that if you want to future-proof your setup, you might consider going with 12 gauge. If that's not important, the 14 gauge will do just fine, and actually should be OK with even 4 ohm speakers.
 

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I just put cables in the walls of our house. In Sweden we don't have the AWG system, but I bought the "thickest" speaker cable that was available at a cheap electronics store. It's area is 4 mm2 and according to tables I have found 4 mm2 corresponds to something close to AWG 11. Well, I thought that that would keep me on the safe side and the alternative was between AWG13-14.


I also had to run quite long cables and I have yet not been able to test the system, but from my experience thinner cables would be a plus. The cables I bought were terrible to get into the tubes (or what ever the things you put in the walls before the cables are called). To make matters worse we tried to get to cables in to one tube. It actually worked but if I would do it again I would trust these people and not go with anything thicker than necessary. And what the heck, now my cables are in place and begging me to buy a pair of Helicons ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Excellent information folks!


I think I may go with the more flexible 14 Guage for ease of running! Any other thoughts are still welcome!
 

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Paradigm recommends bi-wiring as one of the setup options in their manuals (of the speakers where they provide the means to)


I recently had to run three 50' speaker cable lengths to my L/C/R, Studio 20v3s and an old Def Tech center (soon to be replaced). I went with a UL listed in-wall, 12AWG / 4 conductor cable (Liberty Ultracap), with the original intention to double up the wire for a 9AWG / 2 conductor wire. I found that I liked the sound best from the Studios when I separated the wires, bi wiring with 12 AWG to each set of post. (Using a Rotel 1055 receiver)


Liberty also makes 14/2, 14/4, and 12/2 cables, also check out Kimber Kable's in-wall speaker wire, which uses two different gauges in a 4 conductor cable that equals 12 AWG.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
JKhome,


Can you point me in the direction to find that info on the biwiring...search is not working for me.


Regards,


Mike
 

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Rijax has some good points. Future proofing is always important for in-wall. The Paradigm ADP-470s are 8ohm, pretty efficient and probably don't need damping factor improvements of heavier wire. If you were to get something larger and more power consuming in the future, well that 12awg might help a bit. I have never pulled any wire with your conduit, etc, so ease of installation is another thing altogether, and I have no idea.
 

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Guttboy,

I would go with 4 conductor 14ga at the minimum as long as it fits in the conduit.

AFAIK, dual 14ga is approx equivalent to one 11ga cable.

As in an earlier post, Av-Outlet has some excellent prices on Liberty in-wall cable.

I just got a close-out on 250Ft of 4 conductor 12ga for my subs,sides and rears.


My view was that is was better to over do a bit because once the wall is sheet rocked, there's no changing.


IMO, the Liberty is at least as good as Ultra-link. Liberty copper is one 9 less pure but has a much higher strand count.


The Canare 4 conductor 14 ga is also very good and can be had from Westlake Electronics for about 50 cents a foot.

HTH
 

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Sure, the area is the same with two 14agws as with one 11awg, but it's kind of like partitioning the harddrive. You split signal into two and limit these to half. If one use less current than the other can not use "the extra space". Thus, 1 + 1 != 2, or am I completely wrong here?
 

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Yes, you're wrong. The current goes where it wants to go. You can't "limit [it] to half".


This is all silly, anyway, if you're trying to support bi-wiring. Bi-wiring only creates the illusion of making a difference. It is electrically identical to mono-wiring, so it's essentially a waste of cable.


Four-conductor 14 AWG makes sense in a permanent installation because of the redundancy factor. But with conduit, it's a simple matter to replace or add whatever you need. Might as well keep it simple and less expensive now. One-pair 14 AWG per speaker is more than adequate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Guys....


Thanks for ALL the insight. After consulting with my HT installer and doing a bit of reading...the 14 guage is what I will be using. Also the conduit already installed has alot to do with it as I can always repull wires if needed.


Thanks!
 

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Well, I'm sorry for being unclear, but I ment that it may be that bi-wiring can make things worse. If the load of the two cables are different, there will be more current per mm2 in one cable then the other, and I think we all agree that it is just that that is the main cause of distortion (if not, there is no use in having thicker cable). Using one cable decrease the maximum current / mm2, and thus cause less distortion (given the same area), right? I'm not sure but it sounds right to me...


And to be clear, this will only be noticable if you use thin cables.
 

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Just came up with a better explanation. Say that you take the thickest cable available. This ought to give a near perfect signal right? Then you make it thinner and thinner until it gets distorted. Then make it somewhat thicker again. You now have the thinnest cable that gives the signal you want.


Now split this cable into two cables and use them to bi-wire your speaker. This would give the same result as using the thick cable if the load of each cable is equal. As soon as load gets unbalanced the signal would be more distorted and you will get less quality. Thus 0.5 + 0.5

And to be clear again, in most cases the difference is theoretical, but I think it is still a valid proof that bi-wiring sucks :p
 

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Well here's another explanation (not mine):

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cab...ages/4953.html


Right/wrong/who know? If you do a goggle search on bi-wiring, you can get lots of pros and cons regarding


But the bottom line is you can read the net all day long, and get everyone else's advice, but sooner or later you have to actually sit down and listen to your system, and see if it makes a difference to you. (Or not)


But please don't insult others opinions because you have a differing one. Audio is way too diverse for that.
 

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No you don't. That's the way to fool yourself. The ear is far more susceptible to illusion than our other senses. One well-known illusion is that you will "hear" a difference that you expect to hear. In a famous series of tests a salesman pretended to change out a component and tell the listener that, "this one has much better highs," (or whatever) and danged if they won't hear much better highs. Even when he didn't change anything.


That doesn't mean that there aren't differences in audio components. It means that there aren't differences in some audio components and that you have to be careful when someone advises you to "listen with your own ears" and judge. You should listen for preferences, not to detect differences. For that you need a blind test.


As to the cited post, that is by Jon Risch. He's full of bull up to about here (and yes, I've told him that). He's a master of inventing theories, then claiming to have scientifically tested them. Problem is, no one can get his test data to check for themselves. You have to "trust" him. That's where the controversy is, if any. Everyone else's tests are flawed, but not his. Odd how that works...
 

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I agree with jkhome that listening is the only way to go in the end and, just as DMF says, that has to be done using blind testing everything else is too "hard" for most of us. But still my I think that my "proof" is nice :)
 
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