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All,


I'm looking for speakers with the best soundstage/imaging within $2500 to $3000 range. I have been eyeing Thiel 1.6s here in Canada. Are there other choices that I should be looking at?


This will be for 90% music listening.


Thanks.
 

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I quite enjoy the disappearing act of pinpoint imaging of my Klipschorns. 2.5K in Canadian dollars sounds about right for a vintage pair. They retail new for 11.8K in Canada, and the used market for 20 to 30 year old ones is good. Quite good and precise bass too. They is probably an owner near you who could provide an audition, but you need a big room with something like a 20-foot long with good corners.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pack_tor /forum/post/16986262


All,


I'm looking for speakers with the best soundstage/imaging within $2500 to $3000 range. I have been eyeing Thiel 1.6s here in Canada. Are there other choices that I should be looking at?


This will be for 90% music listening.


Thanks.

isnt best soundstage defined as best overall power response? You need to look at speaker off-axis measurements to determine that.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pack_tor /forum/post/16986262


All,


I'm looking for speakers with the best soundstage/imaging within $2500 to $3000 range. I have been eyeing Thiel 1.6s here in Canada. Are there other choices that I should be looking at?


This will be for 90% music listening.


Thanks.

Any other factors to consider, such as size?


For example, the K-horns mentioned are pretty big; huge by some standards.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/16986444


isnt best soundstage defined as best overall power response? You need to look at speaker off-axis measurements to determine that.

My understanding of soundstage is just that, the apparent stage where the instruments and voices come from. In that sense soundstage and imaging are related for me.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn /forum/post/16986546


My understanding of soundstage is just that, the apparent stage where the instruments and voices come from. In that sense soundstage and imaging are related for me.

Yeah, I always thought of them as combined, you get imaging with a wide soundstage. Anyone have wide soundstage without imaging?
 

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I think speaker placement, seating placement, and room acoustics are huge factors regarding imaging and soundstage. Obviously, some speakers are better than others in regard to this, but with proper setup and room, even cheaper (read: 1K/pair) speakers have great imaging capability.


I would recommend reading on this topic prior to auditioning...so that when you go to listen, you can have the sales rep. move speakers and seating to fit the best setup....and then judge the speakers ability.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamhead /forum/post/16986866


I think speaker placement, seating placement, and room acoustics are huge factors regarding imaging and soundstage. Obviously, some speakers are better than others in regard to this, but with proper setup and room, even cheaper (read: 1K/pair) speakers have great imaging capability.


I would recommend reading on this topic prior to auditioning...so that when you go to listen, you can have the sales rep. move speakers and seating to fit the best setup....and then judge the speakers ability.


Never audition outside of your home



I would also like to know who speakers can have a good soundstage if they have a horrible off-axis response?


Its all in the measurements
 

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I think the last thing one should consider when checking out (reputable) speakers is the measurements. People (like me) tend to get too wrapped up in how things look on paper but we all know that speakers are more than the sums of their parts and measurements. I would hate to see someone bypass a good set of speakers just because they didn't look good on the spec sheet.


Anywho, one reason I got my Dali Ikons was the image and sound stage. I think they retail for about 2K a pair, US.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/16986935


Never audition outside of your home



I would also like to know who speakers can have a good soundstage if they have a horrible off-axis response?


Its all in the measurements

Well,

Sometimes you have to audition outside your home.


Room acoustics play a vital role in soundstage and imaging. Here's a simple test: Take your well-measured speakers and place them in the bathroom. Then check out that soundstage. Or, put a big entertainment center directly between them, ensuring the baffle is behind it....check out that imaging. Or, place your speakers in a room with big windows, tile/wood flooring, leather furniture, and turn it up.....check out that imaging.


Speaker measurements are good for curiosity sake, but if you're not going to place those speakers correctly......then what difference do the specs make?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by s44 /forum/post/16987132


Ever been in a real concert hall or opera house?

You would have to drag me kicking and screamin to an opera house



But I have been to too many concerts... You do realize though that they all use Constant Directivity designs? Hence off axis response IS GOOD, meaning soundstage is good.....again its nothing to do with the room size and it all starts with the speaker.


I guess I will be a little blunt about this...You can not have a good soundstage without great off axis measurements.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamhead /forum/post/16987045


Well,

Sometimes you have to audition outside your home.


Room acoustics play a vital role in soundstage and imaging. Here's a simple test: Take your well-measured speakers and place them in the bathroom. Then check out that soundstage. Or, put a big entertainment center directly between them, ensuring the baffle is behind it....check out that imaging. Or, place your speakers in a room with big windows, tile/wood flooring, leather furniture, and turn it up.....check out that imaging.


Speaker measurements are good for curiosity sake, but if you're not going to place those speakers correctly......then what difference do the specs make?

See above (it all starts with the speaker) but this has nothing to do with sticking something in a small room .....and no I will never audition outside of my home period, It makes little sense to be to do so.


I agree with you that room design, room treatments speaker placement has an impact on the on and off axis response but I will repeat that if your speakers do not have a good polar response, power response, off axis response (Whatever you like to call it) they will not have a good sound stage.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexiconthx /forum/post/16987136


B&W 805's. Can't beat B&W soundstage and imaging in my opinion. Only thing lacking here is low end and that can be fixed with a nice subwoofer

They are okay but not even remotely close to the soundstage that Constant Directivity speakers offer.
 

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Concert halls have amazing, incomparably great soundstages.


What they often don't have at all -- particularly when you have more than one or two people playing -- is the "pinpoint imaging" people talk about. The sound seems to come from everywhere, not some simply-localizable place onstage. This seems to me largely a recording artifact of which audiophiles make too much.


I agree that off-axis response is really important.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmarkmyers /forum/post/16986960


I think the last thing one should consider when checking out (reputable) speakers is the measurements. People (like me) tend to get too wrapped up in how things look on paper but we all know that speakers are more than the sums of their parts and measurements. I would hate to see someone bypass a good set of speakers just because they didn't look good on the spec sheet.


Anywho, one reason I got my Dali Ikons was the image and sound stage. I think they retail for about 2K a pair, US.

Its because most people only look at the FR plot which is kind of useless, there are many, many more measurements that could be available if people would get a little more education on the importance of proper measurements but since customers do not demand it speaker companies run from it.


Its funny you think its the last thing anyone should do when its the first thing designers look at when building speakers. kind of weird to ignore some important facts
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by s44 /forum/post/16987325


Concert halls have amazing, incomparably great soundstages.


What they often don't have at all -- particularly when you have more than one or two people playing -- is the "pinpoint imaging" people talk about. The sound seems to come from everywhere, not some simply-localizable place onstage. This seems to me largely a recording artifact of which audiophiles make too much.


I agree that off-axis response is really important.

Very true but stick Non-CD designs in those concert halls and findout the soundstage disappears. Its one of the reason Pro-audio uses horn designs exclusively.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/16987331


Its funny you think its the last thing anyone should do when its the first thing designers look at when building speakers. kind of weird to ignore some important facts

I should not have offhandedly dismissed the importance of specs as I did. The truth is that they are important and they are what results in a good sounding speaker. And as you said, too many people are hung up on the frequency response.


Still, I stand by my opinion that too many people get bogged down with how the speaker looks on paper and don't give it a fair shot. I think you should look at the specs (and, more importantly, what they mean) but not ignore reputable speakers that have good reviews (both professional and word of mouth).


Before I bought my Dali's I went and listened to them. Over, and over, and over again. I wish I had saved my spreadsheet, but they when I looked at whatever specifics I could find they weren't the best of the bunch. But nothing sounded better so despite my overly-analytical train of thought I went with them. To this day I couldn't be any happier.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmarkmyers /forum/post/16987584


I should not have offhandedly dismissed the importance of specs as I did. The truth is that they are important and they are what results in a good sounding speaker. And as you said, too many people are hung up on the frequency response.


Still, I stand by my opinion that too many people get bogged down with how the speaker looks on paper and don't give it a fair shot. I think you should look at the specs (and, more importantly, what they mean) but not ignore reputable speakers that have good reviews (both professional and word of mouth).


Before I bought my Dali's I went and listened to them. Over, and over, and over again. I wish I had saved my spreadsheet, but they when I looked at whatever specifics I could find they weren't the best of the bunch. But nothing sounded better so despite my overly-analytical train of thought I went with them. To this day I couldn't be any happier.

Very good point, some speakers that many people like do not have great measurements. Including distortion/box coloration measurements. I have read reviews from a company that states the box coloration is part of their over all sound and people do like that speaker




Some people care little about distortion/accuracy and just want a good sounding speaker, those people can ignore every post that discusses measurements. Of course they should never discuss accuracy or distortion either, or post that their speakers are generally great.


Im going to always pick measurements myself because I like to know speakers have some accuracy.
 
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