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@sspears A month or so I mentioned that I did a 2 pt D65 calibration using the factory menu. The results were that contrast was no longer clipping white, and I could leave contrast at the default setting. DV and HDR10 content, particularly bright white detail got a big bump and revealing some detail know was there.

I tried a experiment, the result was not only that there is more detail revealed, but it seemed as if the color gamut was never mapping to the EOTF correctly. I know in most cases, HDR and SDR share APL, atleast to an extent. Some titles are using 203 nits. To conclude, I did a 100% white full field SDR calibration, display internal patterns from the factory menu. I then applied the measurement results to the PQ EOTF 60% white. Linear tracking of the EOTF must perform really well, picture quality looks like it has gone through complete transformation.

Its glorious!



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@sspears A month or so I mentioned that I did a 2 pt D65 calibration using the factory menu. The results were that contrast was no longer clipping white, and I could leave contrast at the default setting. DV and HDR10 content, particularly bright white detail got a big bump and revealing some detail know was there.

I tried a experiment, the result was not only that there is more detail revealed, but it seemed as if the color gamut was never mapping to the EOTF correctly. I know in most cases, HDR and SDR share APL, atleast to an extent. Some titles are using 203 nits. To conclude, I did a 100% white full field SDR calibration, display internal patterns from the factory menu. I then applied the measurement results to the PQ EOTF 60% white. Linear tracking of the EOTF must perform really well, picture quality looks like it has gone through complete transformation.

Its glorious!
You can think of a 2-point grayscale as adjusting RGB brightness and contrast.

Didn't you experience a cropped line from the bottom of your image with your player? The OPPO has the same issue, which I suspect is a decoder bug. I think your player, an LG, has the same bug as its the same decoder chip.
 

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You can think of a 2-point grayscale as adjusting RGB brightness and contrast.

Didn't you experience a cropped line from the bottom of your image with your player? The OPPO has the same issue, which I suspect is a decoder bug. I think your player, an LG, has the same bug as its the same decoder chip.
Yes. I got a chance to take the disc to my brothers house, who has a Sony X700 UHD Bluray player and TCL 65RS635.

The geometry pattern fit perfectly. The cropping pattern as well. So I plan on getting either a Panasonic or the latest LG. The Sony and its lack of auto detection for HDR formats is just to cumbersome, puts it out of contention.

I still need to do a seperate calibration through my current UHD BD player, the internal patterns worked great for streaming. On disc there is more shadow detail now, reflections, cloud detail, more clouds in bright scenes, but just to be sure I'll run some meaurements using the disc full field patterns to gauge luminance.

The starfield test, I never thought to let it play no more than 10 seconds. I didn't know that star density ramps up, and surprisingly the Vizio performed well. For a IPS panel with a RGB sub pixel structure, and BG-R LEDs(126 dimming zones) it punches above its weight.

Good stuff, the disc that keeps on giving.





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Yes. I got a chance to take the disc to my brothers house, who has a Sony X700 UHD Bluray player and TCL 65RS635.

The geometry pattern fit perfectly. The cropping pattern as well. So I plan on getting either a Panasonic or the latest LG. The Sony and its lack of auto detection for HDR formats is just to cumbersome, puts it out of contention.
The team that made the decoder in the OPPO and LG is no more. I don't think LG has any other players.

Can you tell me more about the issue with the Sony? We have had two customers say that the SDR section plays as HDR or Dolby Vision, which makes no sense. Might be related to what you are saying. I am going to pickup an X800M2 at some point to test.
 

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Can you tell me more about the issue with the Sony? We have had two customers say that the SDR section plays as HDR or Dolby Vision, which makes no sense. Might be related to what you are saying. I am going to pickup an X800M2 at some point to test.
When your turn on the DV option of the Sony players, SDR and HDR10 movies will get “converted” to DV.
 

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Instead of “going into SDR”, the player puts the SDR contents in a DV container. Same for HDR10 contents. The TV stays in DV mode regardless of the original content.
This is the same behaviour as the APPLE TV 4K if you turn off the Match Range option.
This only happens if the DV is enabled. When DV is disabled, SDR and HDR10 contents play natively.
 

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@sspears I wonder if your clients are having this issue that I have mentioned before?

Windows-Gamut-I select Red and all primaries are skipped and displaying only two secondaries(Yellow and Magenta). These two secondary will go through different saturation levels, always reverting back to yellow.

The only way to see all primaries and secondary colors, I have to switch the Configuration-HDR Gamut to BT.2020 from P3D65|BT.2020.

Viewing angle yellow dots, there is no visible number in yellow dot. Lowering color brightness, and the light green 3 becomes visible.

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@sspears I wonder if your clients are having this issue that I have mentioned before?

Windows-Gamut-I select Red and all primaries are skipped and displaying only two secondaries(Yellow and Magenta). These two secondary will go through different saturation levels, always reverting back to yellow.

The only way to see all primaries and secondary colors, I have to switch the Configuration-HDR Gamut to BT.2020 from P3D65|BT.2020.

Viewing angle yello2 dots, there is no visible number in yellow dot. Lowering color brightness, and the light green 3 becomes visible.

Sent from my LGMP450 using Tapatalk
No other reports outside of you. Have you seen this with two different players and two different displays? (different brands)
 

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Windows-Gamut-I select Red and all primaries are skipped and displaying only two secondaries(Yellow and Magenta). These two secondary will go through different saturation levels, always reverting back to yellow.

The only way to see all primaries and secondary colors, I have to switch the Configuration-HDR Gamut to BT.2020 from P3D65|BT.2020.
I see the same with a Samsung UBD-M9500, fw 1113.
 

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I see the same with a Samsung UBD-M9500, fw 1113.
We have tested a disc from each pressing with a C9, Z9D and Samsung 7000 with the OPPO and Panasonic BD players and can't reproduce it. I plan to get the Sony in a couple of weeks.

Keep in mind that the colors look a lot different in P3 vs. 2020. E.g. Cyan is almost white.

I just grabbed the chapter and titles from the Panasonic. Try directly accessing the patterns via a Title / Chapter search:
1000 nits: P3D65: Title 72
Chapter 1 - White
Chapter 2 - Red
Chapter 3 - Green
Chapter 4 - Blue
Chapter 5 - Cyan
Chapter 6 - Magenta
Chapter 7 - Yellow
Chapter 8 - White 100

1000 nits: BT.2020: Title 77
Chapter 1 - White
Chapter 2 - Red
Chapter 3 - Green
Chapter 4 - Blue
Chapter 5 - Cyan
Chapter 6 - Magenta
Chapter 7 - Yellow
Chapter 8 - White 100
 

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Try directly accessing the patterns via a Title / Chapter search:
1000 nits: P3D65: Title 72
Chapter 1 - White
Chapter 2 - Red
Chapter 3 - Green
Chapter 4 - Blue
Chapter 5 - Cyan
Chapter 6 - Magenta
Chapter 7 - Yellow
Chapter 8 - White 100
Title 72
Chapter 1 - White
Chapter 2 - Orange
Chapter 3 - Yellow (looks same as Chapter 7)
Chapter 4 - Darkish Magenta
Chapter 5 - White (looks same as Chapter 1)
Chapter 6 - Lightish Magenta
Chapter 7 - Yellow
Chapter 8 - White

Chapter 77 displays correctly. I'm displaying on a Samsung Q90R that I've calibrated reasonably well in HDR using CalMAN, C6 HDR2000, VideoForge Pro. I could measure the patches if you want.
 

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Title 72
Chapter 1 - White
Chapter 2 - Orange
Chapter 3 - Yellow (looks same as Chapter 7)
Chapter 4 - Darkish Magenta
Chapter 5 - White (looks same as Chapter 1)
Chapter 6 - Lightish Magenta
Chapter 7 - Yellow
Chapter 8 - White

Chapter 77 displays correctly. I'm displaying on a Samsung Q90R that I've calibrated reasonably well in HDR using CalMAN, C6 HDR2000, VideoForge Pro. I could measure the patches if you want.
First, thank you. Your results are interesting for sure! It sounds like some really odd color processing is happening. Is your player outputting RGB instead of YCbCr? P3 red is outside of 2020 and will look orange if not correctly handled or not in HDR mode. The blue channel goes negative, which takes it outside of 2020 red. Just wondering if clipping in RGB from the player is causing some of this.

Can you play the P3D65 saturation ramps vs. the 2020 saturation ramps? See if you see the same differences. Another interesting test would be stimulus P3 vs. 2020 as the patterns are identical in that case, just a metadata difference. This will at least tell us if its the metadata causing the display to do something unusual or not.

Another pattern to compare is the HSV P3 vs. 2020. This one is a bit different in that the metadata is always 2020 but the patterns are different.

This is very weird and is showing an issue that is either in the player or display, which is the purpose of the disc. Of course, never expected an issue in this area before.
 

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We have tested a disc from each pressing with a C9, Z9D and Samsung 7000 with the OPPO and Panasonic BD players and can't reproduce it. I plan to get the Sony in a couple of weeks.

Keep in mind that the colors look a lot different in P3 vs. 2020. E.g. Cyan is almost white.

I just grabbed the chapter and titles from the Panasonic. Try directly accessing the patterns via a Title / Chapter search:
1000 nits: P3D65: Title 72
Chapter 1 - White
Chapter 2 - Red
Chapter 3 - Green
Chapter 4 - Blue
Chapter 5 - Cyan
Chapter 6 - Magenta
Chapter 7 - Yellow
Chapter 8 - White 100

1000 nits: BT.2020: Title 77
Chapter 1 - White
Chapter 2 - Red
Chapter 3 - Green
Chapter 4 - Blue
Chapter 5 - Cyan
Chapter 6 - Magenta
Chapter 7 - Yellow
Chapter 8 - White 100
I'll try this in just few minutes, as well as the suggestions above and report back.

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First, thank you. Your results are interesting for sure! It sounds like some really odd color processing is happening. Is your player outputting RGB instead of YCbCr? P3 red is outside of 2020 and will look orange if not correctly handled or not in HDR mode. The blue channel goes negative, which takes it outside of 2020 red. Just wondering if clipping in RGB from the player is causing some of this.

Can you play the P3D65 saturation ramps vs. the 2020 saturation ramps? See if you see the same differences. Another interesting test would be stimulus P3 vs. 2020 as the patterns are identical in that case, just a metadata difference. This will at least tell us if its the metadata causing the display to do something unusual or not.

Another pattern to compare is the HSV P3 vs. 2020. This one is a bit different in that the metadata is always 2020 but the patterns are different.

This is very weird and is showing an issue that is either in the player or display, which is the purpose of the disc. Of course, never expected an issue in this area before.
I've tried the player with YCbCr 4:2:2, 4:4:4, and RGB output, and the Gamut results are the same. The Saturation ramps and Stimulus patterns all look reasonable both ways, as do both HSV patterns.

What are the technical differences between the P3 and 2020 Gamut patterns? The P3 patterns are the P3 primaries and secondaries as embedded (as a subspace) in 2020, and the 2020 patterns are the full extent 2020 primaries and secondaries? What luminance and saturation? The static metadata difference is the Mastering Display Primaries (P3 v 2020)? I'm wondering if I can generate similar patterns with a VideoForge Pro.
 

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What are the technical differences between the P3 and 2020 Gamut patterns? The P3 patterns are the P3 primaries and secondaries as embedded (as a subspace) in 2020, and the 2020 patterns are the full extent 2020 primaries and secondaries? What luminance and saturation? The static metadata difference is the Mastering Display Primaries (P3 v 2020)? I'm wondering if I can generate similar patterns with a VideoForge Pro.
Yes to your questions. Calman should be able to generate the same patterns with the VF Pro. On the gamut, stimulus and saturation are at 100%. One is DCI-P3 mapped into 2020 and the other is pure 2020. For the saturation sweeps, stimulus is at 58% (Calman currently uses 50% and will change to 58% in a future release)

I took some ugly iPhone photos:

P3D65 Red (Title 72, Chapter 2)
3040431


P3D65 Red (Title 72, Chapter 2) w/ Panasonic UI showing P3 metadata (Alters the color slightly while UI is up)
3040433


2020 Red (Title 77, Chapter 2)
3040437


P3D65 Green (Title 72, Chapter 3)
3040434


2020 Green (Title 77, Chapter 3)
3040438


P3D65 Blue (Title 72, Chapter 4)

3040435


2020 Blue (Title 77, Chapter 4)
3040439


P3D65 Yellow (Title 72, Chapter 7)
3040436


2020 Yellow (Title 77, Chapter 7)
3040441
 

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First, thank you. Your results are interesting for sure! It sounds like some really odd color processing is happening. Is your player outputting RGB instead of YCbCr? P3 red is outside of 2020 and will look orange if not correctly handled or not in HDR mode. The blue channel goes negative, which takes it outside of 2020 red. Just wondering if clipping in RGB from the player is causing some of this.

Can you play the P3D65 saturation ramps vs. the 2020 saturation ramps? See if you see the same differences. Another interesting test would be stimulus P3 vs. 2020 as the patterns are identical in that case, just a metadata difference. This will at least tell us if its the metadata causing the display to do something unusual or not.

Another pattern to compare is the HSV P3 vs. 2020. This one is a bit different in that the metadata is always 2020 but the patterns are different.

This is very weird and is showing an issue that is either in the player or display, which is the purpose of the disc. Of course, never expected an issue in this area before.
Saturation sweeps work, choosing gamut through chapters didn't change the response, primary colors still didn't show up. HSV BT.2020 shows what seems like increased saturation at the outer edges of green, cyan, and blue. P3D65|BT.2020 did not have the appearance of a saturation at the outer edges.

During this test, while in the player options I visted picture settings and switched it to user. It was set to standard, while at standard there is notible banding in the HSV P3D65|BT.2020 patrern. I also turned the sharpness down to zero. Standard seemed to part of the problem, as far overall PQ is concerned.

The Gamut problem, I have no idea.

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Yes to your questions. Calman should be able to generate the same patterns with the VF Pro. On the gamut, stimulus and saturation are at 100%. One is DCI-P3 mapped into 2020 and the other is pure 2020.
Thank you for your responses, and for the disc. I've been able to reproduce the situation using CalMAN and the VFPro, but that leads to additional questions on my part. Attached are two gamut measurement screenshots, both for P3D65|BT.2020 using the same metadata as on the disc, one with 25% sweeps at 50% stimulus, and one with 25% sweeps at 100% stimulus. (The version of CalMAN I'm using doesn't give the option for just 100% saturation for P3 for this page.) The 50% stimulus results are in line with my expectations, having taken similar measurements multiple times in the past. The 100% stimulus results were a surprise, however. The color patches that are displayed look the same as what I see with the disc, but CalMAN is telling me that what I see is largely what I should have in fact expected. The 100% measured values are certainly off from their reference points, with some consequently high dE's, but not half-a-gamut off. At 100% stimulus, the reference points (the small squares in the CIE chart) for 100% saturation P3 primaries have been pulled way in, such that red is pretty orange, green is basically yellow, and blue is pretty magenta. The screenshot has 100% green selected, and you can see by the zoom-in in the upper right of the CIE chart that the reference points for green and yellow are basically on top of each other. I assume this squishing is due to the volumetric shape of BT.2020? And also, when you say the P3 gamut patterns are at 100% stimulus, you mean 100% in BT.2020 terms, yes? So, does this clear anything up, or just add more confusion?
P3 50%.png P3 100%.png
 

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When measuring the gamut of a display, you want 100% stimulus because you are measuring how wide it is. Since most displays today don't go much beyond P3, this is why the P3 in 2020 gamut measurement is used by default for HDR. The 2020 is there to see what the display can actually do. On some displays those may measure the same. Most content is graded in P3 mode and then put into 2020 for delivery. We decided to grade directly in 2020 mode for the montage, to avoid this conversion later. The red tulips go all the way to the 2020 spectral locus (aka edge) of red.

For saturation measurements, within the gamut, then you use a lower stimulus. Where we use 58% and Calman uses 50%. The 50% was just a guess back in 2014 to figure out a good starting point for HDR and wide color gamut. The ITU and others later settled on 58%. I keep bugging Tyler to change it in Calman and one day he will get around to it. :) It is on his list. You can manually change in the UI, so not the end of the world.

I should mention that I did a factor reset on the C9 a while back while looking at some Dolby Vision stuff. I have not re-calibrated since. Waiting on some other stuff before I do. After I do that, then I can better judge the colors of P3.
 
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