[noizemaker]

well, it has been mentioned many times that the spyder is not very accurate below 30 IRE. I have noticed the same inaccuracy at the low voltage levels (10-20 IRE) when self-calibrating my grayscale utilizing the spyder2pro as well.

 

[Bear5k]



Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrowe /forum/post/0


Im hoping people still check this forum, as its popularity has certainly dropped some. While taking measurements from my display, I noticed something odd when taking readings with both the 10 and 20 IRE windows. Utilizing radars spreadsheet, the relative level of green skyrockets off the page under the 20%, but then levels off just like the other two colors. Changing the green settings a lot in the user menu would bring the peak down, but would mess everything else up. Counter-changing of the other colors could never level it off.


My question is whether the Spyder2Pro is not very accurate with the 10 and 20 IRE windows, or are diplays unable of getting the relative RGB in this section as accurate as the remaining IRE Windows.


I have noticed that when other people post their relative levels, it seems as if they all have the three lines merging close together near the 20 mark....

For UHP lamp-based displays, you will typically see a big divergence at low light levels, but 20IRE sounds a bit high. What type of display do you have and what is the light level the meter is returning?


Later,

Bill

 

[bmrowe]

Its a 32 inch lcd panel from sony... I am unsure what data you are asking for exactly, but I noticed that at 10 and 20 IRE, the color temp was 9000 and 7000 respectively, then would level off near 6500K +-100 for the rest of the windows. When changing the drive and cut settings in the service menu, I would notice changes at these levels, but it would take drastic changes to the cuts and drives. I could post the graph if that would be a better explanation.

 

[Bear5k]



Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrowe /forum/post/0


Its a 32 inch lcd panel from sony... I am unsure what data you are asking for exactly, but I noticed that at 10 and 20 IRE, the color temp was 9000 and 7000 respectively, then would level off near 6500K +-100 for the rest of the windows. When changing the drive and cut settings in the service menu, I would notice changes at these levels, but it would take drastic changes to the cuts and drives. I could post the graph if that would be a better explanation.

With an LCD panel, I'd be really surprised if the light level at 20% were low enough to fall outside the Spyders sensor range. It might be low enough for ambient light to impact it, though. Have you seen a review or other calibration from this model of family of models?


Feel free to post the graph, but we are treading close to my "not supporting Shawn's work" rule...

Later,

Bill

 

[bmrowe]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k /forum/post/0


With an LCD panel, I'd be really surprised if the light level at 20% were low enough to fall outside the Spyders sensor range. It might be low enough for ambient light to impact it, though. Have you seen a review or other calibration from this model of family of models?


Feel free to post the graph, but we are treading close to my "not supporting Shawn's work" rule...

Later,

Bill

Yeah, I realize your desire to stay separated with Shawn's spreadsheet and all, the only problem is that you are the most knowledgable person about this topic in the forum. You've got to be getting close to finishing up the work and documentation on your edition of the spreadsheet, which I would love to get my hands on. Anyway, its the KDL-32S2000 from Sony, and the only review I have been able to read is from CNET and it just noted that colors out of the box were better than average as far as accuracy goes.


Looking over my final calibration results, the 20 IRE window throws a wrench into an otherwise nearly perfect calibration. Both the x and y data from the xyY meter vary 0.003 after the 20 IRE mark, but at the mark, the data jumps .17 in x, and .12 in y. The color temperature also dropped nearly 1000 points below standard. Maybe its a bad sensor, and I should return it for an exchange since all of the other points seem to fall into place.


I've attached the basic relative RGB graph to show the spike at 20, along with the Gamma Curve. I also thought it was noteworthy to supply the DeltaE vs D65 to further show how large this odd jump is.

RGB graph/data

Gamma graph

DeltaE


Bill, I really appreciate your input so far, and if I have stepped over that thin line I was tight rope walking before, please just pm me and I can let you stay focused on more pertinent topics.

 

[Bear5k]



Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrowe /forum/post/0


You've got to be getting close to finishing up the work and documentation on your edition of the spreadsheet, which I would love to get my hands on.

Derek Smith has already left a teaser in his thread, but we are targeting July 1, give or take, to nail down v2.0. We will have full interoperability with ANY VERSION OF SPYDER2. However, I do still strongly recommend using either the STV or S2PRO, though (most people will want the "improved" sensor). However, from a grayscale standpoint, the differences won't matter. No more having to transcribe numbers, and no real risk of Colorvision being able to change a window or font and break the functionality. I will, of course, be supporting it fully elsewhere (announcement when it comes), to the extent my day job allows me. Yes, it will be a commercial product, so this is about the last I will say on the subject here.

Quote:
Looking over my final calibration results, the 20 IRE window throws a wrench into an otherwise nearly perfect calibration. Both the x and y data from the xyY meter vary 0.003 after the 20 IRE mark, but at the mark, the data jumps .17 in x, and .12 in y. The color temperature also dropped nearly 1000 points below standard. Maybe its a bad sensor, and I should return it for an exchange since all of the other points seem to fall into place.

With the black level you have, I would be concerned about ALL of the measurements if the sensor were bad. To even start worrying about low-light accuracy issues, you need to be

 

[bmrowe]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k /forum/post/0


Derek Smith has already left a teaser in his thread, but we are targeting July 1, give or take, to nail down v2.0. We will have full interoperability with ANY VERSION OF SPYDER2. However, I do still strongly recommend using either the STV or S2PRO, though (most people will want the "improved" sensor). However, from a grayscale standpoint, the differences won't matter. No more having to transcribe numbers, and no real risk of Colorvision being able to change a window or font and break the functionality. I will, of course, be supporting it fully elsewhere (announcement when it comes), to the extent my day job allows me. Yes, it will be a commercial product, so this is about the last I will say on the subject here.



With the black level you have, I would be concerned about ALL of the measurements if the sensor were bad. To even start worrying about low-light accuracy issues, you need to be

 

[Bear5k]

Your Delta E is quite good from 30 on up, but you will see errors in your shadow details (somewhat muddy).

 

[bmrowe]

Would it be worth trying to turn the backlight down or brightness up to remedy this? Or will the current problem at 20IRE be proportional at different backlight and brightness settings?

 

[Bear5k]



Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrowe /forum/post/0


Would it be worth trying to turn the backlight down or brightness up to remedy this? Or will the current problem at 20IRE be proportional at different backlight and brightness settings?

You can try changing the backlight, since it may be non-linear in its light output. However, I'd be skeptical of Sony's quality control if I saw too much change in colorimetry here. You might see a lower dE if the light is non-linear, since dE* is dependent upon relative light levels. If your white point doesn't fall as fast as the black, your contrast not only goes up, but your dE goes down. Exciting, huh? Of course, this does indicate a manufacturing or design issue, but if it works, hey, why not take it!

Later,

Bill

 

[Lyckman]

Hi guys,


I have used the spreadsheet & the S2XYy tool for some time now. Thanks guys. Great work!


Allthough, things can always be simplified...

I managed to chart some of the API for the CVSpyder.dll file. The file is used by the Spyder2Pro application to communicate with the Spyder2 meter and is downloadable (with the Spyder2Pro app) from colorvisions website.


One interesting find was that the expsure time could be set when taking measurements.

I made a tiny VB6-app upon the base of my findings which use the spyder2 to take XYZ (XYy) readings. Exposure time is selectable in the application. Readings are "saved" in a list and easily cut'n pasted into the spreadsheet.


You can select between LCD/PROJ and CRT (as in the colorimeter tool), but the CRT option does not seem to give correct readings at the moment... I'll look into it.


Make sure that your CVSpyder.dll file resides in the same directory as the application or in the system PATH. (eg winnt/system32).


The app is pretty straight forward. Make sure the spyder2 is connected to an USB port. Fire up the application (prjS2.exe). The communication with Spyder2 is setup during startup hence the application might take about 5 seconds until it's visible. Press the Initialize button when the application window is up. You can change exposure time if you like, The exposuretime is deafulted to 300 ("300 what" u might ask? Don't ask, I have no idea. 300 is the value that the colorimeter use). You're now ready to take measurements.


Happy measuring!

EDIT:

New version posted. Attached sreenshot.

Added:

* Custom Templates for "automated" measurements with application generated testpatterns. (woohaa! for htpc users)


Planned:

* Support for "external" testpatterns in templates

* Better data presentation

* Single step execution on allready measured step.

* Fix the problem with mesurements in CRT-Mode. EDIT>CRT Mode seems to work when using v4.0.0.7 of CVSpyder.dll

Known bugs:

Oh, yeah.... but mostly cosmetic ones

/EDIT


EDIT Again:

Almost immediately after post I found a bug on reading blue. Fixed and uploaded.

/EDIT


// Lyckman


 

S2FLy.zip 22.435546875k . file

 

[arioch]

I tried Lyckmans application last night. It seems to be right on par with the measurements made by the Colorvision colorimeter and it's really easy to use.

Just do the measurements, copy and paste into the Excel-sheet. Done!

Really great little application.

I just put the app in the same directory as the Spyder2 app.

A full DVE 20-100 IRE measurement takes just takes a minute or two now.

 

[arioch]

These are the latest measurements made from my back-projecting Sony 1292Q CRT-projector btw:


20 0,3138 0,3248 1,381

40 0,3084 0,3318 5,339

60 0,3061 0,3291 13,161

80 0,309 0,3286 25,177

100 0,3122 0,3281 40,464

 

[arioch]

and gamma 2.57

 

[Arno P]

Very nice....


Would be nice to have "presets" mentioning the standard IRE steps 0, 10, 20, 30...100 in a vertical column. And with this an option to select a certain row in the measured data with a "remeasure" button...in this way it would be possible to improve certain readings while shifting the slider...


Any chanc this little program could be linked to the free downloadable testpattern program datacolor provides for colorfact purposes..In that way the testpatterns could be generated from that program and your utility can grab the measured data. (see -> Datacolor ColorFacts Professional Test Patterns)


Just some thoughts...couldnt resist

 

[Lyckman]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Arno P /forum/post/0


Very nice....


Would be nice to have "presets" mentioning the standard IRE steps 0, 10, 20, 30...100 in a vertical column. And with this an option to select a certain row in the measured data with a "remeasure" button...in this way it would be possible to improve certain readings while shifting the slider...

Thanks.

Good idea. How about this; The way it works now would be some kind of "free measure mode". I could implement some kind of "Template measure mode" where you could predefine the number of readings (and also exposure time for each reading). After measurements, any reading can be selected and remeasured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arno P /forum/post/0


Any chanc this little program could be linked to the free downloadable testpattern program datacolor provides for colorfact purposes..In that way the testpatterns could be generated from that program and your utility can grab the measured data. (see -> Datacolor ColorFacts Professional Test Patterns)


Just some thoughts...couldnt resist

I have thought about doing something like that to make it easier for htpc users to do measurements. Allthough, the cf testpatterns is created by the program in runtime, hence not easily accessible. It's up to me to create my own (I'll refuse to "macro-program" the interface). To create testpatterns is quite a simple task though.

The testpatterns could then be used in conjunction with the above idea to do fully automated measurements to your own specs.


Any thoughts before I set it in motion?

// Lyckman

 

[Arno P]

For the patterns could be 2 options:


1 "Internal patterns" (inserted in your prog.)

2 Option of having external patterns by which the user pops in a test dvd on the first 0IRE testpattern (AVIA/DVE/Finzel?GetGrey) and your program only triggers the disc by a "next chapter". The additional info the program needs to know is the total number of testpatterns (5 for the DVE, 10 for the others).


While running first the SP2 application needs to be up front and the DVD-player software (for me prefered TT) is in the background. After the "start" the application goes to the background and the DVD player applic. is up front until the last measurement..


You can always PM me for debugging or additional thoughts

 

[Lyckman]

Ive posted a new version of the S2FLy utility in my initial post on this page (#791). Would link it if I could but I havnt earned enough avs-credzzz yet!

I'll try to keep the versioning in that post...


Cheers!

// Lyckman

 

[darryls]

Hi, I think I read this forum right. I just bought a Spydertv and I already have the spyder2 pro software. So I should be good for my home rear Projection TV and my computer lcd monitor now. Is that right?


So I have a new Spdertv colorimeter and software and spyder2 pro software.


The colorimeter should work on both screens now that I have both software?


Thanks for your help.

 

[bmrowe]

Thought I would post again with the results of another run of calibration. I managed to tweak the KDL-32S2000 a little more, and I think the results are pretty astounding. My Delta E is more acceptable, and besides for the odd green value at 10IRE, the RGB graph is pretty good. I will just leave some pictures so people can look instead of hearing me ramble on. If anyone has any suggestions on further improvements or tweaks I could make, please feel free to comment...

Calibration Data

RGB graph

Gamma curves

DeltaE and Color Temp