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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We've got U-verse at home (U400), with the HD package. We do minor DVD and minor Bluray viewing, but since getting U-verse and using the On Demand, not so much.


My dad likes watching Encore Western (940) and the Military History Channel and a couple of others...the catch is that, they're not on HD, just on SD.


I'm considering getting him a large screen HDTV, anywhere from 50-60"'s, and his viewing distance is anywhere from 9-10' all the way up to 16'; the room is always layed out like my mom wants it, which usually means he's 14-15' away from the screen. Room layout does get lots of light, but he also does lots of night watching too.


So my question (finally) is:


When he's watching his SD channels, just how bad is the picture going to be on good modern 1080p HDTV (leaning towards plasma but if there's a reason to go LCD in this situation, that's fine too)?


Any responses appreciated, thanks in advance!


Chuck
 

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Its obviously not going to be great as any modern HDTV will only enhance whatever picture flaws are already present in the source material. That being said, even on SD CRTs, westerns and black and white footage never really looked that great to me so when I saw it on a HDTV, it wasn't that much different (though I rarely watch this type of programming). Things like SD-only sitcoms from the 90s though, those did look significantly worse on the HDTV (vs the SD CRT) as expected. My dad though watches basically the same type of programming as what you described and I gave him a 50" Pioneer Kuro plasma a few years ago and he couldn't be happier with it. The fact that your dad will be sitting 15' away though will help to mitigate the flaws any HDTV will enhance in SD-only material. And assuming your dad currently has a CRT and likes it, then you probably should go with a plasma as plasma produces a more CRT-like image than LCD.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yeah, I figured it's certainly not going to look better, my concern really was just how bad a western (some have some surprising detail/quality for having been shot 70 years ago) is going to look on say a (+-) 58" plasma.


I've already figured plasma is going to be the way to lean for what he's watching...


...I wonder if maybe I should try and see if I can demo a set I'd be looking to buy, or maybe rent one? Then I could have it right here in the environment it'll be in, being watched by the guy that'll be watching it, with the content and content delivery method that's going to be used.


Chuck
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JThiessen /forum/post/19554239


Get a Panasonic Viera - its got the same processor (upscaler) that the Pioneer Elites/Kuros used. Probably the best that you can find.

I'm virtually positive that Panasonic doesn't use any of Pioneer's processing technology. Lots of people here seem to rate Panasonic's processing below that of Samsung's.
 

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Well I can only relate this. My dad watched a LOT of Encore Westerns and as much Bonanza and Gunsmoke as could be found on Directv. I got him a 42" Panny plasma 720p and I was surprised at just how good it looked. HD, in no way shape or form, but more than acceptable. I think it would look a bit worse on a 50" set but the distance might mitigate that fact.


If he sits in various locations in the room plasma might be a better options since off angle viewing is not LCDs strong suit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Well, he really doesn't sit in too many different angles. Mostly he's in his recliner, sometimes though he lays on the couch, but, that's pretty much in line with the recliner the way it works out, so, even LCD would be fine in that regard I'd think.


I'm actually thinking about the LG 50PX950 or 50PK950. Have to do a little research on those and see if I can find out any info on their scaler. I'm also interested in the Samsung's, but, my dad easily finds faults in things, and I'm more than freaked out about the buzzing far too many of them have.


So I've got to find out how bad the black levels are for the LG's, and, how bad their scalers are compared to Samsung. I've ruled out Panasonic as I'm not rewarding them for screwing people with the 2 major black issues they've got: That stuff should never make it through design, much less prototyping, QC, and Final. Which means they knew, they either didn't care or, didn't care. Not acceptable IMO. Sony as well is out, I don't float business to that company.


Thanks Everyone for the info so far!


Chuck
 

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Well, you could be screwing yourself by ruling out the Pannys, they start out fantastic, but end up about the same as the LG and Samsung, but without the drawbacks both manufactures have. I have a Samsung 1080p plasma, pro calibrated by Chad B, and the Panny X1 plasma using the D-nice's offsets, a Samsung LCD B650, and a monster 38" HD CRT. the Panny holds it's own against the Samsung that cost 3x as much. No, it's not really in the same class, but even after a lot of viewing it's black level is a bit better than the Samsung. And since it's 720p(768....) for some reason SD content looks a bit better on it than either of the Samsungs or the CRT. Of the 4 SD looks the worst on the CRT.


I'm well aware of the black level issues with Panasonic, but I still tell my friends and family it's the best buy out there at the moment. The build quality seems sturdier and it seems to be very immune to IR, something I can't say about the Samsung. And don't get me started on LCDs, my Samsung is in my bedroom, not the place to put a $1500 set, but that is the only space with controlled viewing angles. Straight on it's great, move a bit or stand up and it's image is crap. I will never buy or recommend an LCD to anyone for the foreseeable future.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
That my very well be, but, I'm not going to reward Panasonic for knowingly doing that to customers, that's not something I'm comfortable doing...it'd be like buying Sony. If customers don't vote with the purchase on unacceptable practices, the Corp.'s will just keep doing what they do.


The only thing holding me back from the Samsung's is the buzz, and i also don't like that black levels increase when enabling whatever that feature is that I can't recall right now, as it seems like one would want to have that feature enabled. I have to see if a firmware update fixed that or not.


Too bad the 2011's aren't here and Panasonic has confirmed they've seen the error of their ways and fixed the issues....they're not dead to me like Sony is...


Chuck
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky2 /forum/post/19581209


That my very well be, but, I'm not going to reward Panasonic for knowingly doing that to customers, that's not something I'm comfortable doing...it'd be like buying Sony. If customers don't vote with the purchase on unacceptable practices, the Corp.'s will just keep doing what they do.


The only thing holding me back from the Samsung's is the buzz, and i also don't like that black levels increase when enabling whatever that feature is that I can't recall right now, as it seems like one would want to have that feature enabled. I have to see if a firmware update fixed that or not.


Too bad the 2011's aren't here and Panasonic has confirmed they've seen the error of their ways and fixed the issues....they're not dead to me like Sony is...


Chuck

continuing to make panels that buzz isn't an unacceptable practice? You may not like Panasonic's implementation of their technology but in the end it's a good as anyone out there and better than a lot. IMHO it seems you're making a mountain out of a mole hill as test results have shown the Panasonic's to still be some of the top rated sets even after the slight rise in black levels.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Yes, the buzzing is also unacceptable, however, there are Samsung sets out there that don't buzz, unlike Panasonic's who will all rise.


My problem with Panasonic is not that their black levels rise (although that is a large concern)...it's that they do not publish the rise, while part of their marketing is how black their panels are. Obviously, they darn sure know about it. So they're pushing how great their panels are (and, they are good), they sure are getting good reviews in large part because of their black levels (and Panasonic sure wasn't telling all the reviews, Hey, make sure to point out to your readership that these will triple in a thousand hours or so, thx!), yet it takes someone not Panasonic to "discover" that the panels who are marketed and reviewed won't be what they were portrayed as. That's not acceptable.


It'd be like Ford saying the 2011 Mustang GT is the awesomest ever, reviewers are great on its 412 horsepower, and a year later, it's gone from the 412 to 325. Sure, it's still over last seasons 305HP, but it's sure not what Ford led you to believe, or what the reviewers said.


Oh, btw, Ford knew that'd be happening in advance, even designed it that way.


That'd be cool, right?


EDIT: P.S. That says nothing of the floating black issue...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky2 /forum/post/19582096


Yes, the buzzing is also unacceptable, however, there are Samsung sets out there that don't buzz, unlike Panasonic's who will all rise.


My problem with Panasonic is not that their black levels rise (although that is a large concern)...it's that they do not publish the rise, while part of their marketing is how black their panels are. Obviously, they darn sure know about it. So they're pushing how great their panels are (and, they are good), they sure are getting good reviews in large part because of their black levels (and Panasonic sure wasn't telling all the reviews, Hey, make sure to point out to your readership that these will triple in a thousand hours or so, thx!), yet it takes someone not Panasonic to "discover" that the panels who are marketed and reviewed won't be what they were portrayed as. That's not acceptable.


It'd be like Ford saying the 2011 Mustang GT is the awesomest ever, reviewers are great on its 412 horsepower, and a year later, it's gone from the 412 to 325. Sure, it's still over last seasons 305HP, but it's sure not what Ford led you to believe, or what the reviewers said.


Oh, btw, Ford knew that'd be happening in advance, even designed it that way.


That'd be cool, right?


EDIT: P.S. That says nothing of the floating black issue...

The thing that gets me is Panasonic's blacks are only that black part of the time when you first get the set. All black levels are taken when the blacks are floated down. When the blacks are floated up, how do they compare against Samsung (after the latest firmware release)?


After you've owned a high end Panasonic for a while, the black level are slightly higher than Samsung's high end, and that's when the blacks are floated down. When the blacks are floated up, won't they be much worse than Samsung's steady black levels (that actually get better with time)?


Panasonic is a tease. I can see why so many people fall for them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Yeah, I'm really going back and forth on the 50" Samsung PN50C8000 and the 50" LG 50PX950 (or 50PK950, but then that brings in the PN50C7000 to the debate).


I'm worried the daylight viewing he does, the large window the TV will be near by, the white ceilings and walls, all will be too much for a TV that doesn't have a good AR element, and I think the Samsung would beat the LG out on that.


But $500 is a significant price to pay for that, or giving up 10"'s, as one could get a 60" LG for what the 50" Samsung is going for.


Decisions, decisions...


Chuck
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky2 /forum/post/19582096


Yes, the buzzing is also unacceptable, however, there are Samsung sets out there that don't buzz, unlike Panasonic's who will all rise.


My problem with Panasonic is not that their black levels rise (although that is a large concern)...it's that they do not publish the rise, while part of their marketing is how black their panels are. Obviously, they darn sure know about it. So they're pushing how great their panels are (and, they are good), they sure are getting good reviews in large part because of their black levels (and Panasonic sure wasn't telling all the reviews, Hey, make sure to point out to your readership that these will triple in a thousand hours or so, thx!), yet it takes someone not Panasonic to "discover" that the panels who are marketed and reviewed won't be what they were portrayed as. That's not acceptable.


It'd be like Ford saying the 2011 Mustang GT is the awesomest ever, reviewers are great on its 412 horsepower, and a year later, it's gone from the 412 to 325. Sure, it's still over last seasons 305HP, but it's sure not what Ford led you to believe, or what the reviewers said.


Oh, btw, Ford knew that'd be happening in advance, even designed it that way.


That'd be cool, right?


EDIT: P.S. That says nothing of the floating black issue...

Not a very accurate analogy. if you know anything about cars then you know horsepower ratings are also very subjective as none of them are dyno tested and ratings typically come with some sort of disclaimer that they are just estimates and you can take 4 different Mustangs and likely have 4 different actual horsepower ratings and 4 different top speeds. Does Panasonic actually state a tested black level spec in their literature? If not, how are they being deceiving?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbyrne /forum/post/19592083


PC World just came out with their new HDTV ratings. Samsung LED LCD's came out on top in the three categories tested. Panasonic Plasmas came in last!

and that has zero to do with what the OP was asking as he's concerned about SD viewing on a set. It also appears that PC World didn't test the VT25 series. Oh, by the way a top 5 is not last as there are way more than 5 sets in a category.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTguru3
Not a very accurate analogy. if you know anything about cars then you know horsepower ratings are also very subjective as none of them are dyno tested and ratings typically come with some sort of disclaimer that they are just estimates and you can take 4 different Mustangs and likely have 4 different actual horsepower ratings and 4 different top speeds. Does Panasonic actually state a tested black level spec in their literature? If not, how are they being deceiving?
Given the current Panasonic black level issues, that's a [email protected] close analogy. It doesn't matter if the Mustang's would have different horsepower's from the factory, 1 year later they'd all be way down - engineered to get worse, and Ford would knowingly have done it that way, all the while exclaiming how [email protected] their product is. That's precisely what Panasonic has done, it's just that their 4 sets in your Mustang example would have 4 different black levels, and 1 year later, all 4 have their black level tripled.


When they put it straight on their website that initial blacks will triple over time, and make sure all reviewers are aware of that fact, then they won't be deceiving. Until they do that, or, fix the issue, they're out.


Chuck
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky2
That my very well be, but, I'm not going to reward Panasonic for knowingly doing that to customers, that's not something I'm comfortable doing...it'd be like buying Sony. If customers don't vote with the purchase on unacceptable practices, the Corp.'s will just keep doing what they do.


What is Sony doing that warrants boycotting their products?
 

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CNET ''after about 1500 hours the black-level performance of our TC-P50VT25 review sample has worsened,but not enough to affect our overall performance score'' http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...ml#reviewPage1 .


1500 hours,5 hours a day=300 days


CNET best HDTV 2010 http://reviews.cnet.com/best-high-de...?tag=mncol;txt


Hometheater review http://www.hometheater.com/3d-flat-p...tv/index2.html


People in the official thread where complaining about the BUZZ ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=8046 ).


It seems to me that the Panasonic TC-PxxVT20/25 is the new flatscreen KING
.
 
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