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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A few of us have discussed starting a friendly petition to the CEA (Consumer Electronics Association) and related companies for showing demand for 1920x1080 DLP/D-ILA/LCD etc..


With an increasing amount of 1920x1080 material, D-VHS, and the fact that 1920x1080 is requred to fully resolve all HDTV specifications, the time has come to show our demand for consumer 1920x1080 digital display devices.


We will be drafting the petition shortly... feel free to comment.
 

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Why does one need a petition to convince an industry to manufacture a product that will presumably earn them lots of profits? If there is really a demand, won't it be built? If there is not a demand, wouldn't it better that resources be utilized elsewhere? Or is this a case where there really is a large demand, but the industry is not aware of it due to imperfections in the marketplace that result in misinformed manufacturers? Sorry, but my economic studies from college are rearing their ugly head again. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
For instance, Texas Instruments has a working 1920x1080 DLP, yet they feel there is not enough demand. JVC has commercial D-ILA that exceeds 1080p capability....


Clearly, there is demand for a projector to fully resolve the most popular HDTV standard. This petition would emphasize the demand for 1920x1080 progressive capable digital projectors. It makes no sense to have 1920x1080 HDTV and not be able to fully resolve it.
 

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I don't believe there will ever be a 3-chip, 1920x1080 DLP display for consumer use...at a sane, affordable price. Scratch that...there will never be a consumer DLP display with such resolution-resolving power.


Ah, an affordable D-ILA display capable of doing 1980p, with DVI and whatever other digital inputs for consumer (read: HT) use...Now, that would really be great!...


-THTS
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Quote:
there will never be a consumer DLP display with such resolution-resolving power
There is nothing magical about 1920x1080 resolution, it is a standard for consumers and a standard HDTV resolution. There is no reason to cater to what the CEA/JVC/TI might want you to think.


Certainly if Texas Instruments /CEA doesn't want to manufacture standard devices capable of what was meant for consumers, we will buy whatever DOES deliver the resolution that the FCC has granted comsumers. If your not resolving your given right to resolve 1920x1080, then your being cheated of your rights.


Sure, D-ILA is practically there, so I see no issue with 1080p capable consumer projectors right now. 9 inch CRTS do a damn good job... TI has a working 1920x1080 chip--if for some reason you think DLP deserves special treatment, I'd certainly like to hear it.
 

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How do you define 'fully resolve'?

Doesn't that imply that the entire signal processing chain can not attenuate the signal at all?

Also with the high degree of MPEG compression involved you might just be able to resolve the compression, aliasing, and interlace artifacts more clearly. :)

Be careful what you wish for.

If you are going to display every pixel of 1080i then you have better have a damm good deinterlace algorithm.

TI DLP cinema seems to do quite well on 30 foot wide screens with only 1280 by 1024 pixels, partly because the compression is so much less and the color resolution is higher.

Give me the image quality of a DLP cinema (1280:1024) on my lowly 12 foot wide screen and I would be a happy camper.


Frank
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
With new formats such as D-VHS, HDTV, and the upcoming HD-DVD formats, the weak link is certainly the projector. Even with the less compression achieved by digital theaters, it shows how digital theater has some weaknesses. Film does have overall better picture quality, while DLP offers a direct digital pathway so every copy sent to the theater is as good as the master. One of the weaknesses of digital theater is resolution, buit the stregths of the format partly make up for the lower resolution. Digital theater is NOT welcomed by many people, and overall picture quality still is inferior to film. It's not our fault that digital cinema utilizing DLP is not 'better' than its current state. IMO the vast majority of commercial theaters in general are really quite pathetic. The sound format in a huge commercial theater hasn't undergone any significant changes in MANY years. It is quite clear from recent and past articles that commercial theaters have not been doing very well--not to mention that there was a GLUT of building too many theaters, which are in the process of closed.

It really is not our fault that commercial theaters have very little to offer these days. Film on a large screen is still the best thing commercial theaters had... While all digital cinema has its advantages, the fact that they only use a 1280x1020 DLP projection system, albeit a 3-chip DLP, again shows that commercial theaters have nothing special to offer. Commercial theaters need to introduce new modalities and adopt new surround formats such as Homlison (THX) 10.2 etc... The joke is that home theater is held back by what is available for commercial theaters.


I agree about the compression being a factor. Even the D-5 digital 1080p master uses 4X compression and utilizes around 365 mbps bandwidth. I don't know what video compression algorithm is utilized for the D-5 master but I'm sure it is superior to block coding like MPEG. In any case, video compression algorithms are improving by leapos and bounds and I doubt something like Wavelet compression running at high bandwidth would be the weaker link. There is no question that 1920x1080 digital projectors would be of great benefit for 1080i/p. Sure makes me want to grab a G90 for the time being.
 

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HealthNut,


I'm confused. Why do you think that TI has a working 1920x1080 DMD array?


I've seen a 1920x1080 array circa 1996 that's about 3 inches across. It's sitting in a glass case in the DLP exhibition center at TI in Plano, TX. I'm not aware of any other chips with that resolution. That chip has a note by it which states that it was developed for the DOD. It doen't state that it ever worked with no faulty pixels. In fact, I'd be very surprised if it ever did. Even if it did work, I can almost guarantee you that you wouldn't want to use it. There's been a lot of improvements in the DMD and manufacturing prcess in 6 years, not to mention the thing would cost an arm, a leg, and your first born too.


-phil
 

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With all the dead pixel posts, it makes me wonder what the minimum dead # on a 1920x1080 panel a manufacturer would want before it replaces a Unit? 20, 30?
 

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1. What exactly could the CEA do? (in a perfect world of course)


2. Given the improvements that have been made in the last decade, you'll get your projector pretty soon. Will you be able to afford it?


3. Supply and Demand. Of course the demand is there. The first company to make one and sell at a profit will own the market (for a while).


I cant wait to get my 1920 x 1080 projector to show 480i. ;) But seriously, lets work on getting content first. The display devices will come. BTW go get a G10 and calibrate it. It's the next best thing and it can be had for under $4k.
 

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Three-Five Systems will be showing their new LCOS that is capable 1920x1080p and 1280x720p from 0.85-in. at SID convention in Boston May 19-24 according to electronic products magazine.

Artur
 

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Why shouldn't Moore's law apply to these chips? They should double in capability every 18 months. That doesn't leave much time for DLP chips (or some competitive technology) to get to the 1920 x 1080 level.


And the content will be there when it arrives. It gives the studios a chance to sell us the same movies yet again. Then of course Health Nut's 1080P petition will have about 250,000 signatures, and we will be very unhappy that we only have 1080i on our 12' screens.


So the industry will grudgingly accede to his wishes, and sell us the same movies yet again, with the new players to play at that resolution. And so on.


We don't watch movies anymore. We watch the technical performance of our systems.
 

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Circulating this petition just shows how out of touch with reality you are.


The reality is that less than 10% of HDTV compatible buyers now buy a HD STB. That means that for now 90% are pretty satisfied watching their DVDs and will wait until more content is available before even bothering to view in the resolution their current sets/projectors can deliver. If you want to convince manufacturers to focus on 1080 displays SOONER it seems that the first step would be to show them there is a real demand for the display capabilities already available.


If you really want true 1080i RIGHT NOW buy a 9" CRT.


TI is working full steam to just get out their 720P HD 2 chip. Thats where their focus is right now. If JVC forces their hand with a 1080 capable device I'm sure they will respond but for now they need to first perfect their 720 technology.
 

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Tom,


Moore's law works because the new technologies allow for smaller features on semiconductor chips. Smaller means shorted route distance, which means faster. Smaller means denser, which means larger capacity.


DMD's are limited in size. There's a point where smaller wouldn't make sense because you couldn't get enough light on the DMD to reflect a bright image. Last I hear, TI was several technology generations back. DMDs don't have to be blazing fast and don't want to be microscopic.


-phil
 

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Shocking.



That's what it's like to read this thread and realize how many dream-less, vision-less, passionless ludites we apparently have in this forum!



Chris has an awsome idea. At least we *assumed* that there would be some demand here for 1080 P DLP chips...especially considering that every other thread you read says "I'll wait to get a digital projector when they go 1920 x 1080".


But reading this thread you'd think you guys actually would RATHER be watching 480I on an interlaced TV.


Chris, don't let it get you down. I'm sure there is someone else out there on this forum besides you and I who objectively can understand the concept that if our HD resolution format is 1920 x 1080 in nature that it certainly wouldn't be a BAD thing to have a native 1080 chip. Not to mention that all film-based 1080I HD material could be 3-2 deinterlaced for true 1080P playback ;)

Quote:
If you are going to display every pixel of 1080i then you have better have a damm good deinterlace algorithm.

TI DLP cinema seems to do quite well on 30 foot wide screens with only 1280 by 1024 pixels, partly because the compression is so much less and the color resolution is higher.
Hugh? If the very *basic* deinterlacing algorithms can process a 1080I image and down-scale it to 720P and have such good results (with today's crop of DLP projectors using the HD1), the results should be even BETTER with a 1080P chip because there would be no scaling artifacts.

Quote:
I cant wait to get my 1920 x 1080 projector to show 480i. But seriously, lets work on getting content first. The display devices will come.
Last I checked...they were broadcasting 1080-line HD signals over the air on via satellite. Oh yeah...and now you can get 1080-line HD "Fox" movies on D-VHS if you want. But we all get to downsample them to 720 for our current crop of 16x9 DLP projectors.


The reason we don't have 1080 chips is due to politics. TI is dragging their feet bcs they don't want digital cinemas to feel like you can better the digital theater in your own home. At one point they actually SAID they'd "never" release 1080P chips to the consumer.


Whatch out Chris...next thing you know members of this forum will be telling you to stop the HD-DVD petition because they think that compression artifacts, ringing, and overly-compressed audio are worth preserving.


-dave
 

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Quote:
Hugh? If the very *basic* deinterlacing algorithms can process a 1080I image and down-scale it to 720P and have such good results (with today's crop of DLP projectors using the HD1), the results should be even BETTER with a 1080P chip because there would be no scaling artifacts.
Not true.

Downsampling will produce a better result.

Scaling isn't the problem. Deinterlacing is.

1080i which is from a progressive source would look just great on a 1920:1080 digital projector but 1080i from an interlaced source is a totally different animal.

Because of the motion between fields the effective resolution will always be less then 1920:1080.


Frank
 

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I would strenously object to the concept of such a petition.


This would be Research and Development by petition.


As you know, there are chips that have the requested resolution - and some like JVC's QXGA chip that exceed

the request. It's not that industry is not working on getting higher resolution chips - they are; as evidenced

by the JVC chips.


However, as you push the resolution - and the number of pixels skyrockets - the combinatorics tell you that there's

just that much more that can go wrong with the chip - dead pixels...


What stands in the way of QXGA-caliber chips for the masses is not misdirected marketing - but real technical problems.


Let the scientists and engineers solve the problems without

being barraged by "petitions".


Why not petition the medical profession for a cure for cancer?


Just as the medical profession is aware of the problem and working to solve it - so are the projector manufacturers

working on the resolution problem. They just haven't solved it ... yet. Be patient.


Dr. Gregory Greenman

Physicist
 

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I'm with Dave... to read the responses in this thread you'd think we didn't want higher resolution displays.


As far a petition goes... great. Like most petitions, it probably won't do any good, but who cares, give it a try. I think a large part of it is a marketing issue, so the more demand companies see, the better.


I don't see why everyone is so serious... It's not cancer... It's TV.


- Noombs
 

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Maybe a better way would be to petition those that regulate things like trademarks or patents.


For instance, if you changed the patents for pharmacutical companies to 1 year patents for treatments, and 10 year patents for cures, you know damn well they would start curing a lot of the stuff out there! How many small ideas/ reasearchers / companies get bought out to maintain the treatment $$$$$ "gravy train".


Same approach could be put in place for consumer electronics. The right incentives is all you need!
 
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