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Strange DScaler filter request

785 Views 18 Replies 6 Participants Last post by Evil Felix, Oct 31, 2001

Evil Felix

Discussion Starter · Oct 27, 2001

Has anybody seen an filter that'll simply show the original interlaced input? Basically I need a weave filter that updates the non-active (not sure of the correct word) lines as black instead of leaving them as they are.

-ef

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1 - 19 of 19 Posts

Namlemez

· #2 · Oct 27, 2001

I think that would be something pretty easy for them to do, but I have no idea. I don't know what your reasoning is for it, but it would be a cool way to show people just exactly what your HTPC is doing. I know I get some people asking "Why do you have that whole computer thing?" and this would shut them up

Evil Felix

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 27, 2001

Quote:

I don't know what your reasoning is for it, but it would be a cool way to show people just exactly what your HTPC is doing.

Video games of course (ps2)

, and yes that'd be another good use.

-ef

trbarry

· #4 · Oct 27, 2001

I think the Scaler Bob method only displays one field at a time. But I don't think it puts black lines in it.

- Tom

High Speed Dubb

· #5 · Oct 28, 2001

What are you trying to do? If you just want to use your PS2 with DScaler, all the standard deinterlacing plugins should work fine -- unless you want to have weave artifacts for a more accurate representation of a standard TV.

I don't think alternating black lines is the best way to simulate a TV tube. If you're using a computer monitor, alternating lines won't look a whole lot like an interlaced image. (Computer monitors are too sharp and are too fast at switching colors.) A better algorithm would probably be a bob/weave mix.

And if you're using a standard TV, it makes more sense to just hook the console up to the TV set.

Evil Felix

Discussion Starter · #6 · Oct 28, 2001

The goal is to simulate a tv as accurately as possible. Maybe an adjustable fade rate for the inactive field? A slider between instant fade (my black lines) and no fade (weave)? This would allow for taste and individual monitors.

-ef

High Speed Dubb

· #7 · Oct 29, 2001

Okay -- A TV tube simulation filter would make sense. A decade down the line, it may be the only way to show your kids TV the way "it was meant to be."

A spatial blur, a temporal blur, plus vertical positioning for interlace might do the trick.

I think it's a little silly to want this effect with a PS2, though. For the most part, those games seem to be designed without regard to TV tube and composite connector shortcomings. And it's hard to reminisce about the good ol' look of PS2 games considering that they've only been around for a year.

Incidentally, there are folks interested in arcade emulation who have been making similar efforts to simulate the bad color separation in an old RGB monitor in order to get as authentic an arcade experience as possible. I sometimes wonder if they spill soda on the floor and let pizza slices mold in a corner to make everything truly perfect.

Evil Felix

Discussion Starter · #8 · Oct 29, 2001

Quote:

I think it's a little silly to want this effect with a PS2, though. For the most part, those games seem to be designed without regard to TV tube and composite connector shortcomings.

Huh? A PS2 outputs a standard NTSC (for me) signal, just like every other faintly recent console. The problem is video games tend to have different content than video, which gets mangled by deinterlacing filters. While video looks fantastic with Dscaler (No, really. Great job Dscaler devs

), detail in video games suffers a lot. (Small text becomes completely unreadable)

-ef, who's tv monitor frame of reference is a commodore monitor, which began smoking and quit on him, which is what spurred his question.

High Speed Dubb

· #9 · Oct 29, 2001

I would try a simple weave plugin -- That should give you the best possible resolution with static text. If that doesn't fix things, your problem isn't with the deinterlacing filter.

How have you connected the PS2 to your computer? Small text is at least as likely to be messed up by color crosstalk as by deinterlacing problems. The temporal comb filter should help quite a bit with crosstalk in text. Try its "trade speed for accuracy" setting if you have a fast enough computer.

The deinterlacing algorithms really do work fine with computer graphics -- I think there are plenty of fans of Toy Story and the like who use DScaler.

Video game content does tend to be much higher contrast than normal video -- That's actually what I meant by "without regard to TV tube and composite connector shortcomings" -- If game makers realized that many people use poor TV sets and connectors, they'd lay off the tiny, high contrast text. It's probably possible to take advantage of the high contrast image to improve deinterlacing a bit -- but the current algorithms already do pretty well at it.

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High Speed Dubb

· #10 · Oct 29, 2001

Just had another thought on this. Have you tried the Old Game deinterlacer? If you're running a PS1 game on your PS2, or if the PS2 game runs at low resolution, then that'll be your solution. (Old Game prevents the artifacts you'd get by trying to deinterlace an image that isn't interlaced to begin with.)

I don't know if there are any low resolution PS2 games, but it's worth a try.

larsan

· #11 · Oct 29, 2001

If you simply want to have interlaced images, then why not connect the PS2 directly to the PJ/TV?

This of course is another cable run if you use the PS2 for regular DVD...

/David

Evil Felix

Discussion Starter · #12 · Oct 29, 2001

Quote:

I would try a simple weave plugin -- That should give you the best possible resolution with static text. If that doesn't fix things, your problem isn't with the deinterlacing filter.

Yes, that works. But then you get weave artifacts, which goes back to my original request

.

Quote:

I don't know if there are any low resolution PS2 games, but it's worth a try.

Ico is the only one I know of, and the old game filter works great on that.

Quote:

If you simply want to have interlaced images, then why not connect the PS2 directly to the PJ/TV?

18 year old college students don't HAVE projectors

, or tvs.

-ef

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High Speed Dubb

· #13 · Oct 30, 2001

Quote:

Originally posted by Evil Felix

Yes, that works. But then you get weave artifacts, which goes back to my original request .

In other words, text looks fine with a weave plugin, but the moving parts of the image then don't look as nice.

So you'd optimally want a filter which weaves when there's no motion, and uses only the most recent field when there is motion. As it happens, there are already some deinterlacing algorithms designed just for this. I'd recommend Video (Greedy, High Motion), Video Deinterlace (2 frame), or the adaptive filter. You might want to pass on Greedy High Motion's fancier options, because (I think) they use a longer video delay, which you'd want to avoid when playing a game.

I used DScaler to play a couple of Dreamcast games, so I'm certain that it's able to handle high resolution video game graphics. (The dot crawl was something awful, but that's not because of the deinterlacing.) Computer game graphics are actually somewhat easier to deinterlace than normal video since the high contrast makes it easier to detect motion.

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SteveGrimm

· #14 · Oct 30, 2001

One thing to consider is that this probably won't look the way you expect it to if you're scaling to something other than a multiple of 480 lines vertically. Video cards sample from multiple adjacent lines when they scale the overlay so that the output looks smoothly stretched. That means that if you pause DScaler's output to see what a field looks like, you won't see one-pixel-high black lines in between one-pixel-high non-black lines in most cases; you'll more likely see a picture that looks like it's kind of fading in and out vertically, rarely either fully bright or fully black.

If you size your DScaler window just right, you can get a 1:1 mapping between the overlay pixels and the screen pixels, but get the size only slightly wrong and it'll probably look awful.

High Speed Dubb

· #15 · Oct 31, 2001

Yeah, if your window is at something like 800x600, scaling could well be the problem.

If that's not it -- Would a screenshot show the problem with small text? If so, could you post it, or (if that isn't possible) send me the screenshot?

If a screenshot can't show it, could you describe the problem in more detail? In other words, is it blurry? blocky? noisy? shimmery? interlaced? jumpy? Has weird alternating dots over it?... (You get the idea.)

That'll make it much easier to figure out your image problem.

Evil Felix

Discussion Starter · #16 · Oct 31, 2001

Sorry to take so long to reply, been busy.

I seem to have branded myself a liar, just set up 3.08 and all my problems are gone. Thing look REALLY good now.

I've been running 1280x960p, so probably no scaling funkyness.

Screenshots are on thier way, HSD. Temporal comb filter on, default settings. File names ending in g2f are greedy 2 frame, and those ending in w are weave. Sc1 is a stationary menu shot, sc2 is a moving game shot.

-ef, must. work. on. writing. to. reduce. kirkisms.

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Evil Felix

Discussion Starter · #17 · Oct 31, 2001

Whoop, guess they're not yet. Your profile needs an email addy.

-ef

High Speed Dubb

· #18 · Oct 31, 2001

Whoops -- Well, my email address is on my web page.

Considering that the problems disappeared with the newer DScaler, it does sound like it was a settings problem. But since you've already taken the trouble to make a bunch of screenshots, go ahead and send them over and I'll pull out the loupe.

Evil Felix

Discussion Starter · #19 · Oct 31, 2001

Now they're on thier way.

They were taken on a composite connection, as I haven't gotten off my butt and found a panel mount s-video connector yet.

I find sc2g2f particularly impressive given that it's at the same rate of motion as sc2w. And they ARE supposed to be that dark.

-ef

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

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