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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHouck
Now Icon, the SX50 is no Qualia or HX2 but then it doesn't cost $30 grand either. :)

Dan
I HAVE PROOF OTHERWISE DAN!!!!!


Thank you for being the perfect straight man. Other than the higher resolution the Canon SX50 is at least the equal of the Qualia and here are the test report numbers to back it up. I took the test data from the translated thorough German report on the Qualia and "Presentation Magazines" June report on the SX50. ( www.presentation.com )


What is the holy grail of this group beside resolution - Contrast Ratio and Lumens - usually in that order. So what are the numbers on the Qualia and the SX50? (Notice the Qualia's numbers were never published on Sony's web site last time I checked. Does that tell you something?.). Well first we have to remove the fudge factor from the Qualia - the iris on the lens which increases CR at the expense of lumens. Taking the data right from the German test report here is the scoop.


Qualia (Iris out) 1550 lumens - 1412:1 CR (uncal) 1130:1 (calibrated)

SX50 (No Iris) 2075 lumens - 974:1 CR


So the $4K SX50 produces about 500 more lumens than the 85 lb gorilla highly touted Qualia and the CONTRAST RATIO is nominally in the same ball park. The Qualia does not have 6000:1 CR or even 3000:1. It has a CR in the 1000:1 to 2000:1 range depending on whether the Iris is on or off. In fact if they made a 100 lb Qualia with a higher output bulb and bigger noisier fans to get the Qualia's lumen output up to 2000 lumens there is no doubt, based on the physics, that the Qualia's Contrast Rato would lessen. Thus the conclusion is clear. The Qualia has been bested by the Canon SX50. And as has been pointed out by me and others it costs about the price of one Qualia bulb or $$$$$ TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS LESS!!!!


I noticed the the S&V report had the SX50's lumen output at 1650 which indicates to me they tested it in low power mode and even then it still has higher lumen output than the Qualia. I know my lumens and have a Sony 2500/2000 lumen unit that rates at a tad less than that in the test reports and I have a 2500/2000 lumen NEC as well. The Canon is just as hot as either of my other 2500 lumen rated projectors and even on my eleven foot 4:3 screen (10' in 16:9) I find it so bright that I prefer to run it in lower lumen econo-mode.


As I have been saying "gang," the SX50 is the absolute best value and most film like projector on the market today even with its shortcomings which we can work around. This is not speculation any longer. It is fact and the numbers prove it! It will likely stay this way until cheap three chip 1080p DLP units come out. The rest of this group needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Stop chasing your tails fooling yourself by thinking you have a real home theater with those low lumen single chip DLP projectors costing ridiculous prices ($8K to $30K) because what you really have typically is tiny six to seven foot screens being viewed in dark caves in your home. You are being bilked by the home theater industry. Get off it and put your foot down. The Canon will do nicely for the next year or two for 99% of this group. With its 2000 lumens you can have a true home theater with a really big screen. If you have to have 1080p today and have $30K to toss out the window - go for it but you will still have a lower lumen, smaller picture than us SX50 owners.


Icon Master
 

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It isn't April 1st is it? :) Sorry, but this has to be one of the most skewed justifications for somebody's own projector I have ever seen.


BTW: You might want to know that the Sanyo PLC-XP55L ( here ) beats your SX50 if you are going to use criteria like you have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon Master
In fact if they made a 100 lb Qualia with a higher output bulb and bigger noisier fans to get the Qualia's lumen output up to 2000 lumens there is no doubt, based on the physics, that the Qualia's Contrast Rato would lessen.
And what physics would it be that would change the ratio between black and white?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon Master
The Canon is just as hot as either of my other 2500 lumen rated projectors and even on my eleven foot 4:3 screen (10' in 16:9) I find it so bright that I prefer to run it in lower lumen econo-mode.

...

With its 2000 lumens you can have a true home theater with a really big screen.
Have you been to a commercial theater recently? They aren't "so bright" that just a little more would make them way too bright to very many people. Even specs for theaters are in the 12-16 ftL range and a 1.3 gain 10' diagonal 16:9 screen would require less than 600 lumens to get to even the high end (16 ftL). With a higher gain screen it takes less lumens than that. TV levels are another story, but not everybody wants TV levels in a home theater or values those highly enough to give up other things.


--Darin
 

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Funniest posting from Icon.....What was funny is that he seemed serious (and that Sound and Vision is the holy grail). I always find humor when those seemingly 'discover' a piece that 'seemingly' outclasses another piece for the price of it's bulb... Don't worry Icon, used Qulias will start showing up on the used market in a couple years, and then you will have your chance at one (and 1080P).


Good rebuttal, Darin.
 

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Darin,


Have you seen a properly setup SX50?


Just wondering.


I know Icon isn't in the Inner Circle around here, but I remember some pretty exuberant hyperbole from Mr. Wiggles after seeing the SX50 at NAB.


I have seen the SX50 and at least understand why someone would get excited about it. I haven't seen the Qualia, but having evaluated the HS51 I am a big fan of Sony's 12bit post gamma processing that it shares with the Qualia.


Ken
 

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Quote:
I HAVE PROOF OTHERWISE DAN!!!!!


Thank you for being the perfect straight man.
You're welcome Icon but me thinks you are a bit carried away in your enthusiasm. First off, the SX50, which I'm ordering next week, has a number of serious issues which we have to work around (like in the old days when virtually all HT was built around adapted business projectors). Noise, weak internal electronics, no HDCP, and for some, 4:3.


I've seen the Qualia and it is an amazing thing to see on a really big screen. Now you know my philosophy about high priced TVs--I won't touch them with a ten foot pole bacause I'm not interested in paying the price of a car for one and then watching it lose 50% in the first year. But that doesn't negate the fact this is the premier digital projector out there right now, the top of the heap.


It (SX50) is a great little cheap projector, no doubt. And I agree it is much better value for money than some of these high priced single chip DLPs with their short throws and rainbows. But it lacks many of the HT friendly features of its competitors. I'm OK with that at it's killer price and ability to satisfy my somewhat retro approach. However, if J Mike wants to ship me his Qualia, I sure won't object. :)


Dan
 

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You obviously didn't read this review of the cannon:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/canon_realis_sx50.htm


Some of the quotes from this review:

"However, the designers of the SX50 did not have home theater in mind as a target market for this unit. Accordingly, many features that are commonly found on today's home theater products do not appear on the SX50. "


"standard definition video material being fed through the DVI port we noticed what appeared to be an occasional loss of frame synchronization in the buffer, which manifested itself as a transient separation of the image along the horizontal plane "


"Finally, as far as video processing is concerned, the SX50's color decoding is first rate. However, onboard deinterlacing is unsophisticated, lacking the motion adaptive capabilities that almost all projectors designed for home theater currently offer. The onboard scaler produces a softer video image that you might expect from a high resolution projector, and this was the case even with HD 1080i and 720p sources. So contrary to expectations the high native resolution of the projector did not translate into particularly outstanding HDTV performance."


"Even with the iScan outputting at 1400x1050 through DVI, the overall video image quality was softer than we would have expected from a projector of this resolution. "



The cannon also does not have HDCP, a big liability.


The brightness would be great for the majority of HT guys with imperfect rooms and some abient light. However if you are really looking for the ultimate home theater, you should be watching in a cave to begin with, and when you do that the black level is much more important than how bright it is.
 

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The Projector Central review is flawed. Synchonization and internal deinterlacing are moot if you have the latest firmware and a proper source or scaler.


Why they didn't try a little harder to feed the SX50 with proper signal I don't know. They should know how.


Sure it would be nice if the Canon was less picky, but then lots of people on this forum are the types that enjoy using obscure knowledge about projector setup to get more value.



Ken
 

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Auburn, other reviews indicate the SX50 is capable of an extremely sharp high quality image if fed at native resolution. As Kenland indicates, there were firmware issues with the very early units. Thanks to our German friends, those along with dust have apparently been addressed. HDCP is a big lack, I agree, but can be worked around fairly cheaply.


All of this is in the realm of speculation. I'll be starting a new thread when I get my unit and start working out the hookup. As I now have a bright display, I'll be able to comment directly on the degree of perceived improvement in CR and resolution. Stay tuned. :)


Dan
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHouck
However, if J Mike wants to ship me his Qualia, I sure won't object. :) Dan
Ok, so I ship the Qualia, you hang it, 10 min to focus/align, plug in the source, do a quick DVE calibration, and you are set for a gorgeous picture.


You'd be bored in 10 minutes! See, I know you are a "fiddler". Thinking of and implementing all the work-arounds you need to do to accommodate the Canon is what you love. The Qualia require no 'fiddling around'


So, I'll save you the anguish. But you are certainly invited to see it when you are back in 'Skins territory. :D
 

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I dont know why someone would expect a high resolution d-ila to be sharp. The nature of the technology is a soft film look.


I can definately see sx50 as good for rooms with ambient light with the light output to combat the bad light.


Many would love to see Canon come with a true ht unit. They could use a lower wattage bulb and still have a bright projector. It would also need less cooling. 1080p might be expennsive but a hx2 killer with a DI would be excellent.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenLand
Have you seen a properly setup SX50?
I haven't, but you may notice that the first post didn't compare the images from properly setup projectors, it just basically said that more lumens are better and therefore the projector with more lumens is better (along with some other details). I have had a projector with the same chip as the SX50 (the JVC SX21), but it wasn't as bright. In that case, lumens wasn't the reason I prefered the Sharp 11k to it in my dark theater. CR was. I understand the appeal of the SX50 and I'm sure it is a great price/performer for those looking for the things it brings to the table. Just like any D-ILA, I'm sure it has the smooth look that is a big advantage to the eyes of many.


BTW: I think if Canon made an SX50 with a user selectable iris that allowed people to get the same lumens and CR they can get now, but also allowed them to drop the lumens by say 2/3rds and almost double the CR through the remote control, it would be a better projector overall even with no other changes. But, the way I read the criteria in the first post is that it would be just the same as now.


--Darin
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara
No doubt the Canon is a great value for it's class.

So is the Sony.
Now that is truly funny! The Qualia is a physically gorgeous looking behemouth that is way overpriced and overweight and oversized product for the lumens and contrast ratio it puts forth but becuase it does 1080p you guys are willing to accept its flaws and pay its exorbitant price. At 85 pounds, on a dollar per pound basis, it might be that great value you elude to. :)


The SX50 units tested elsewhere were obvioulsy not the latest versioins of that projector and the reports were flawed. Since you Qualia fans think I am a bit biased, what follow are excepts from the Presentation Magazine evauation of the SX50;


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Canon seemed to be making a lot of big promises when it introduced the Realis SX50 back in October. Not only would this projector use the much-heralded LCOS (liquid crystal on silicon) technology, it was rated to produce 2,500 ANSI lumens of brightness with native SXGA+ resolution (1,400 x 1,050 pixels). All this in an 8.6-pound package with an estimated street price of less than $4,000.


The projector's DVD-video tests were near flawless as it projected rich color and realistic skin tones. Onscreen images of our test photos were similarly impressive. Color accuracy was a strong point in our tests of the SX50. Canon includes controls to adjust dynamic gamma for contrast balance and a six-axis color adjustment to simultaneously work with the red, green, blue, cyan, magenta and yellow color gamuts.


Optics are at the heart of the Realis SX50's success. A combination of compressor and condenser lenses, which Canon calls its AISYS technology, is what makes LCOS work so well in this projector. AISYS (Aspectual Illumination System) delivers relatively high brightness and high contrast in a small form factor – something that's not been done before with an LCOS projector (see the June 2005 On the Wall column). Canon also adorns the SX50 with a 1.7X optical-zoom lens that can project a 100-inch image from 10 feet away.


Despite impressive color and detail performance, the Realis SX50 fell 17 percent short of its published 2,500 ANSI-lumen brightness spec, measuring 2,075 lumens in the Presentations lab... Despite a couple of hiccups, the Realis SX50 received much praise in the Presentations lab. Its images are sharp, its colors accurate and its video clean and lush. Add in its SXGA+ resolution and low estimated street price, and we predict the SX50 will give its competition an honest run for the money.
 

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Icon, you CAN extol the virtues of the SX50 without bashing the Qualia. :)


Falling 17% short of published light output isn't impressive IMO. Fortunately, there's still plenty left, even if run at low lamp (should be about 1500 lumens out) to control fan noise and extend bulb life.


Got the go ahead from the big boss to order my SX50 on Monday. For starters, I'll run it through my current setup and let it scale up from XGA to SXGA+. The new scaler, DVDO VP30 has been ordered but won't ship until (hopefully) shortly after Cedia.


For those who may have missed it, AVS has a KILLER PREBUY DEAL on the new DVDO VP30. Contact Jason Turk for details.


Dan
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenLand
Darin,


Have you seen a properly setup SX50?
Define properly setup? I saw a SX50 and it was very bright, but the contrast wasn't very good and the black level was elevated way above what a Qualia or HD2K or even an HX-2 can do. It looked like it had potential though. Is someone doing a calibration on these things now?
 

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Icon, you've convinced me...I running out to buy one right now! :D
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg
Icon, you've convinced me...I running out to buy one right now! :D
Icon did a more than convincing job Tryg..I suggest you get two, just incase they run out or the price doubles next week:).


Sheep :D
 

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I'm so "stunned" I may just do that. :eek:
 

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Mark, for starters I think this projector is going to do better run on low lamp. I'm also going to experiment with ND filters a bit. Since I'm coming from an LCD, I'm used to poor CR and black, this is bound to be a substantial improvement for me. I also think the Firehawk is a great screen for this type of projector, it worked wonders on my old LCD, everyone thought I had bought a new projector.


Set up is everything. I saw a badly setup Qualia and was shocked at how poor the CR and Black were. Later saw it done right and would have sworn it was a different projector if I hadn't known different. I have to say though, none of the LCD/LCOS devices can really compete with three chip DLP in CR/Black. IMO you trade off some CR/Black for richer color and higher resolution.


Tryg and Jimmy. . . . . :D


Dan
 

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J,Mike Ferrera: I envy every qualia owner and hope I can be in the same league as you lucky qualia owners some day. But for now I have to make due with my 3000$ projector. Keep up the reports from your projector as everyone I know personally loves hearing about the qualia. ;)
 
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